Women will be saved through Childbearing, if

[JohnR7]

Whereas you, new to the word, are just first up at bat.

I have been a christian for over 40 years and I have read the Bible at least 5 times. I have days I spend up to 12 hours to read and study the word of God. In a sense I am new and just beginning because most people will not have a clue until they actually get to Heaven. No matter how much we read and study in the fallen world we live in.

 

[JohnR7]

In the church setting*. Women cannot have authority over men in spiritual matters.

This has to do with doctrine not "spiritual matters". "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. " (Galations3:28)

 

[Mii]

Language after the Tower of Babel not before. The Torah was written using the Pure Hebrew Langage.

Right but, correct me if I'm wrong, it is a dead language. The WORD is living and can open a believers eyes to the meaning of the text (consider Phillip and the man on the chariot) but even if we tried to mentally understand a dead language...isn't there a considerable amount of debate that it can really even be done?

I like that you mentioned the tower of Babel, because somehow I responded and then reread...and was like ok, it still works lol, because even if they spoke a pure language (which I do not discount as it is highly probable) we couldn't understand it in our fleshly mind regardless.

At first I was responding just off the historical aspect of language being sundered with the tower and then it was brought to remembrance that it was the Lord that did it. So I was first inclined to respond in a certain way and then that was countered by additional "context" so interestingly I seem to have just illustrated the presented example, which is cool.



Usually I put a good bit more time into making that less obvious in text, but I appreciate the example.

 

[Mii]

This has to do with doctrine not "spiritual matters". "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. " (Galations3:28)

Hmm, I think you may be on to something here.

You are referring to the familial structure laid out in Ephesians? or more?

I'm tired, but though I'm pretty sure it's been brought up in the thread, it hadn't really "opened up" until your post somehow.

 

[Judges1318]

I haven't said anything about 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 being a cultural issue.

I don't accept as valid your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:13. There is no inherent reason why prior creation should confer any authority. There is a far better explanation of that passage, which takes into account the cultural context into which Paul wrote.

What is the cultural context of 1 Timothy 2:13 that we need to take into account? And why is 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 not a cultural issue?
What's the difference?

As for 1 Corinthians 14:35-36, it wasn't disgraceful for women to pray or prophesy in chapter 11, but suddenly it's disgraceful for them to speak in chapter 14. That doesn't make sense either. You're welcome to interpret the text as you see it; I don't agree.

Can you explain what Paul meant when he tells everybody, including women, to prophesy, etc. in 1 Corinthians 14:26-33 But then says women should be quiet in vs. 34-39?

26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

34Women f should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. g

36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. h

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

 

[Judges1318]

So, have we figured out what the Lord was commanding when he said women should remain silent and be in submission in the churches?

34Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

1 Corinthians 14:34-40


Are we to assume it has nothing to do with this explanation of why women should be quiet and in submission?

11A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. - 1 Timothy 2:11-14


Paul is saying being quiet and in submission is referring to women not assuming authority in regard to teaching. And he gives the reason why.

How can a woman be a pastor or elder if she is commanded by the Lord to not assume that authority? She can't of course.

 

[Janeaux]

Until the church re-learns what it means to 'save yourself' (see Acts 2:40) without that meaning your works earn your salvation it will be almost impossible to explain how the faithful execution of woman's God given duties to bear and raise children save them.

1) Does "works" have the same meaning as doing good & following Jesus's ministry ... examples The Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount. His two greatest commandments: love God and love thy neighbor ... isn't loving your neighbor actionable? In other words, do you not have to take actions to do this? And is this works? this is what always confuses me about faith only. The Bible says Faith without works is dead. So what does works mean? If you have the first commandmnet to love God but not the second to love your neighbor, then do you have faith alone??

2) If you are saved by faith, what happens to those who claim this but then go on to do awful things, like murder, rape, pedophilia, etc? Can they lose their salvation when they do these things? Can a Hitler do all that he did and repent on the day of his death (he committed suicide) ... so if he said "sorry", was that enough???

I am genuinely confused about how once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation, no matter what and/or if you are "saved", you will NEVER do anything wrong again. Seems like a free pass. To good to be true. If we keep sinning,being forgiven, sinning again ... on and on .. are we really a good Christian?

Thank you for any and all answers.

 

[KhedetOrthos]

Sola scriptura in iudicium, it would seem.

 

[Dino246]

The last letter in a word does change the meaning of that word: In this case we see διάκονοι vs διάκονον (diakonon vs diakonos).

Agreed, but not to the extent that complementarians want to think it does.

 

[Dino246]

You should have respect for the people that do believe in apostolic authority. Otherwise you are creating division in the church.

Expressing a view is not showing disrespect for others who believe differently, and it certainly isn't "creating division in the church". Unity is not to be pursued at the expense of truth.

 

[JohnR7]

Expressing a view is not showing disrespect for others

You are not expressing your view you are disrespecting them and their view.

 

[JohnR7]

Expressing a view is not showing disrespect for others

You are not expressing your view you are disrespecting them and their view. In the Episcopal church for example when you join the church the bishop lays on hands and prays for you. The reason for that is Apostolic Succession. Not just the Catholics, Anglos, Episcopal, Lutheran & Methodist even church like LDS have their own version of Apostolic Succession.

 

[JohnR7]

Right but, correct me if I'm wrong, it is a dead language.

You could not be more wrong. Jesus is the Word of God and He is very much alive today. It is because He is alive that we have hope. We are told: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." Hebrew letters are symbols that have evolved over time. For example the letter B represents a tent or dwelling. Today people live in high rise apartments. We do not call this a "tent' but the symbol is still the same. C represents a camel. We do not use a camel for transportation we have jets, but the archetype is still there. D represents the door to the tent and who controls the door. In this case we are told that Jesus is the door. He is not God, He is the Son of God. It is Jesus, the Son of God that determines what enters in or leaves the tent. Like the Tabernacle in the wilderness there is a Holy of Holies. God requires a degree of Holiness and Sanctification. The Tabernacle evolved into a Temple in Jerusalem. If we go back to basis and if we go back to the Beginning then we can build on our understanding. For example: Look at the word beginning. If you study the letters this means that the Ben, the Son of God was given as a Grain offering so that Heaven and Earth could be reconciled. Over time our understanding evolves and we better understand what a grain offering is and How Jesus was offered for us. Moses talks about: " the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil." (Deut11:14) We see the grain, the wine and the oil are all strong symbols in our Bible.

 

[Judges1318]

2) If you are saved by faith, what happens to those who claim this but then go on to do awful things, like murder, rape, pedophilia, etc? Can they lose their salvation when they do these things?

This is where the argument that they never had it to begin with applies.
But on the other hand, if they started out in faith and shrunk into these things it means they stopped believing somewhere along the line.

Can a Hitler do all that he did and repent on the day of his death (he committed suicide) ... so if he said "sorry", was that enough???

Yes.
I know it's not fair, but neither is Christ dying on the cross to pay the ransom to the devil we should be paying ourselves.

 

[garee]

Being a slow learner is excusable. Refusing to learn is not. Sticking stubbornly to error when repeatedly corrected is deplorable.


Parables don't get in my way at all. You talking about passages that are not parables as if they are does, however, cross my radar far too frequently.

Repeatedly refusing to walk by faith the unseen eternal is deplorable.

It would seem as a literalist you shy away from searching to see if a parable is in view and miss out on the gospel understanding.

Jesus used parables to teach men how to walk by faith the unseen eternal. . Without parables the signified tongue of God. Christ spoke not.

Was the time period when there were kings in Israel as a pagan form of government a parable for the time then present? What did the pagan form of government signify according to Hebrew 9? The abomination of desolation had come to a end?

 

[Judges1318]

1) Does "works" have the same meaning as doing good & following Jesus's ministry ... examples The Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount. His two greatest commandments: love God and love thy neighbor ... isn't loving your neighbor actionable? In other words, do you not have to take actions to do this? And is this works?

Technically, 'works' carries the connotation of working to earn your own salvation. Specifically, the works of the law and the old covenant system of worship.

this is what always confuses me about faith only.

It means saying you have faith, but not having the corresponding actions that signify the presence of that faith.
It's like saying you really believe you will win a million dollars if you play the market today.......then not doing it. That would demonstrate a lack in your own confident assertion that you will make a million dollars if you play the market today.
And that is how it is with faith and works. If you say you have faith in what God says about heaven and hell and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name, but you continue in your old life of sin, then we know you don't really believe what God said........or don't care.
You have failed to validate your claim to having saving faith by not having the works of righteousness that accompany salvation.
That's why works of righteousness MUST accompany a claim to have faith in the blood of Christ for salvation.
That's how works 'save' a person--how the woman who is faithful in her God given duties as wife and mother 'saves' herself. Her works will testify to her saving faith at the Great Judgment.

 

[Dino246]

You are not expressing your view you are disrespecting them and their view. In the Episcopal church for example when you join the church the bishop lays on hands and prays for you. The reason for that is Apostolic Succession. Not just the Catholics, Anglos, Episcopal, Lutheran & Methodist even church like LDS have their own version of Apostolic Succession.

It wasn't my comment that you called disrespectful.

Expressing disagreement with an idea is worlds apart from expressing disrespect of a person. When disagreement is considered disrespectful, discussion is no longer possible. That's the world of leftist social justice warriors who view mere disagreement as hate speech. I'm not interested in caving to such silliness.

It is understandable that people with whom I disagree might feel disrespected, but they should examine their beliefs against Scripture before they whine about their feelings. Biblical truth is neither asserted nor defended with feelings.

 

[Dino246]

Repeatedly refusing to walk by faith the unseen eternal is deplorable.

Are you making a personal accusation, or just throwing words to the wind? Consider your response carefully.

It would seem as a literalist you shy away from searching to see if a parable is in view and miss out on the gospel understanding.

As I know what the word "parable" means, I know where to look for one... and where not to.

Jesus used parables to teach men how to walk by faith the unseen eternal. . Without parables the signified tongue of God. Christ spoke not.

You keep quoting that statement out of context, and twisting its meaning.

Was the time period when there were kings in Israel as a pagan form of government a parable for the time then present? What did the pagan form of government signify according to Hebrew 9? The abomination of desolation had come to a end?

As your questions are related only to your misunderstanding of Scripture, I'm not going to answer them.

 

[Dino246]

Sola scriptura in iudicium, it would seem.

"Sola scriptura on trial"

Do you agree that understanding context is important, and even critical, to biblical interpretation?

Are you KJV-only?

 

[garee]

You should have respect for the people that do believe in apostolic authority. Otherwise you are creating division in the church.

I think you are creating a division by adding new meaning to the world apostle. ."Sent one".

Change the meaning of one word can change many commandments. We are not to ad new meaning to a word. Deuteronomy 4:3 we must be careful how we hear as the seed that fell on the good ground of faith.

Sends us out two by two the great commission. Still doing it work of bringing the message of God.

As a object lesson. God used Balaam's donkey to show us he is not served by the hands as a will of the creature. He set aside a ceremonial law using a Ass and a Lamb to show the fulfilling of it with Balaam, preventing the false apostle from bringing false prophecy . Again God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form.

We have respect for the word God who works in us puts in their mouth or moves their hands , rather than the creature seen . Why puff up the apostles.?

Catholicism make the error with the same kind of pagan idea "apostolical succession" venerated men seen puffed up above that as it is written therefore widening authority of . . thus says the lord as it is written, rather than making it about the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh the pride of life that we have in theses corrupted earthen bodies of death . We have the power of the authority in us He does sent as apostles but never of us.

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 King James Version (KJV)And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?