Not By Works

[NayborBear]

I actually like the above post.
I appreciate the cander.

I never thought about Moses taking a step back because he was unsure of the future.
Are you thinking it could have been because he was scared for himself?

The verses do not seem to indicate that from

Exodus 32:12-13
12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ”

I looked again last night at these verses.

V12 seems to be Moses saying "You wipe em out then Egypt will say your purpose was to kill them and not save them (God told Moses to tell Pharo to let his people go)

Then I looked at V13.

Did not Abrham plead to God about the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah?
Just as Moses did for Israel.

Maybe God relented on that promise given.
I think probably V12 supercede by V13
God keeping true to his promises.

As can be seen in verse 7, where Jehovah begins to voice His extreme displeasure (to put it mildly) to Moses, which was while Moses was "still on the mountain top", Jehovah had already DISOWNED everyone except Moses! "Get thee down!" "For thy people have corrupted themselves!"
And had His mind set to destroy them ALL!

And, it wasn't until Moses made mention of the "gossip" that Egypt (sons of ishmael) would no doubt engage furiously in, concerning the REPUTATION of Elohim, was where Moses "smoothed Jehovah's RUFFLED FEATHERS." Giving cause for Jehovah in relenting from that which He had already DECIDED to do! Where Elohim would have HAD to destroy Egypt as well. And, very well started the Garden of Eden with Moses this time?

Was it because Moses would have been unsure/uncertain of becoming "Israel!" "Take 2?" WITHOUT Aaron that caused Moses to appeal to a higher level of the Government of the Kingdom of God?

Reckon we could ask these questions, when the end of this age comes, or after our flesh bodies turn back to dust. Whichever happens first!

 

[Chris1975]

As can be seen in verse 7, where Jehovah begins to voice His extreme displeasure (to put it mildly) to Moses, which was while Moses was "still on the mountain top", Jehovah had already DISOWNED everyone except Moses! "Get thee down!" "For thy people have corrupted themselves!"
And had His mind set to destroy them ALL!

And, it wasn't until Moses made mention of the "gossip" that Egypt (sons of ishmael) would no doubt engage furiously in, concerning the REPUTATION of Elohim, was where Moses "smoothed Jehovah's RUFFLED FEATHERS." Giving cause for Jehovah in relenting from that which He had already DECIDED to do! Where Elohim would have HAD to destroy Egypt as well. And, very well started the Garden of Eden with Moses this time?

Was it because Moses would have been unsure/uncertain of becoming "Israel!" "Take 2?" WITHOUT Aaron that caused Moses to appeal to a higher level of the Government of the Kingdom of God?

Reckon we could ask these questions, when the end of this age comes, or after our flesh bodies turn back to dust. Whichever happens first!

I guess if there was any pride found within Moses heart he would have gladly jumped at the opportunity. Instead he inerceded.

 

[Chris1975]

This is an important scripture. For those arguing with Jesus in those days were saying they were Abrahams children (Christians in todays equivalence). Jesus was showing them that merely claiming "association" is not authentic. The evidence of the authentic is fruit. Those claiming association by name only, end up in the fire.

Matthew 15
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.

John 8
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44a You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

1 John 3v8a
8a He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

 

[Melach]

I asked a simple question.
If God does everything, why is the church not perfect now?
And if God is responsible for the churches imperfection, surely the gospel has failed?

Paul said

Col 1:28
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

Paul is claiming the ability to present everyone perfect in Christ through admonishing and teaching.
Sounds like Paul believes his ministry is important to the salvation of the disciples.

i think we arent perfect is because our imperfection teach us something like rely on God
or its because we play apart in sanctification. not justification.

either of those is my answer. are you macabeus btw?

 

[dcontroversal]

i think we arent perfect is because our imperfection teach us something like rely on God
or its because we play apart in sanctification. not justification.

either of those is my answer. are you macabeus btw?

Amen on the question......and the word perfect means mature or complete and this is a process that is subject to failures and or successes....I do agree with your premise....we all have a proverbial thorn in the flesh that keeps us humble and keeps us from exalting ourselves without measure....

NONE good no not one.....

 

[Discern]

John 8
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44a You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

1 John 3v8a
8a He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

This is why everyone is saying that believers are not characterized by persistently and unremorsefully ungodly lifestyles

But we all fall short and always need grace. Why do you think osas people sin more than you do?

 

[dcontroversal]

This is why everyone is saying that believers are not characterized by ungodly lifestyles

Why do you think osas people sin more than you do?

Look, the age old argument is the same as it has been since the 1st century A.D.......the fools back then, I.E> the working for Pharisees and salvation losers that peddled some sort of faith and works false gospel and in some form or fashion ACCUSED PAUL of the same CRAP they ACCUSE us of to this very day......

THE VERY SAME accusations by those that oppose a grace based eternal salvation......and make no mistake...the one you are addressing is one of the biggest pushers of a false gospel blend of faith PLUS for salvation that is NOT eternal and needs to be maintained by man....he is not of GOD!

 

[Judges1318]

loool you went two chapters back to find what its talking about.

His discussion about Israel there in Romans 11 starts in Romans 9.
You did not know this?

its talking about gifts plural, any and all gifts of God nothing complicated there. you just have to change it to make salvation losable

You have to lift Romans 11:29 completely out of it's context to make it about the believer not being able to lose salvation.
But we know it doesn't mean that all of God's gifts are irrevocable in any and all contexts, anyway.
How?
Read this:

23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold h was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” - Matthew 18:23-35

In the kingdom of God, the free gift of forgiveness will be taken back by the heavenly Father if you do not forgive others. Once saved always saved won't teach you this. Yet there it is right in our Bibles, the very words of Jesus himself. But I'm confident osas has a way to make it not really mean what it says.

 

[Chris1975]

This is why everyone is saying that believers are not characterized by persistently and unremorsefully ungodly lifestyles

But we all fall short and always need grace. Why do you think osas people sin more than you do?

I believe there are Sheep in the OSAS and NOSAS camps, and there are Goats in the OSAS and NOSAS camps. Let the Word do its work in those who have eyes to see.

 

[dcontroversal]

Gotta love the salvation losers that deny the truth and give a thumbs down to the truth.....easy to see who opposes GOD by what they give negative remarks to.....bad day coming for them......

 

[Discern]

I believe there are Sheep in the OSAS and NOSAS camps, and there are Goats in the OSAS and NOSAS camps. Let the Word do its work in those who have eyes to see.

I agree there are sheep and goats in both camps too. Being in a theological camp does not make a Christian, the New Birth does.

I just replied the way I did because no one is promoting security to sin all you want that I know of. If there is, I hope they come to the truth. But I can’t put my finger on anyone that is actually teaching that.

Christians desire Gods will, which includes their sanctification

 

[Judges1318]

20 + years now and counting. It would be unfathomable for me to imagine to ever stop believing.

Don't project your personal experience onto others.
Just because you have not been tempted to go back to unbelief doesn't mean it's that way for all Christians.

You are either the 4th kind of soil in the Parable of the Sower in which Christ said the seed perseveres and is fruitful, or, you are still untested.

I think in time you will see that it is not wise to make boasts of never having been tempted to go back, but instead you will humbly thank God you have made it thus far. Especially, according to your doctrine, because your believing to date doesn't mean anything. In your version of once saved always saved the only believing that matters is the believing that endures to the end, which you have yet to see if it will. You still have the future to see if you will believe to the very end showing yourself to be truly saved. You do not know what a day will bring that will expose you as not having really been saved all along.

In my doctrine, you are right now completely and totally saved and secure in Christ if you are at this moment trusting in Christ. And you will stay that way as long as you, with God's help, keep believing.

 

[JohnW34]

i think we arent perfect is because our imperfection teach us something like rely on God
or its because we play apart in sanctification. not justification.

either of those is my answer. are you macabeus btw?

Thank you. So is our imperfection then eternal, because it then means we always rely on God?

Luke 1:5-6
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

Luke 1:15-17
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Johns ministry was to turn the hearts of the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous.

This is the same ministry as brothers and sisters in Christ we all have.
Am I someone else? If that is a brother or sister in Christ, I hope we carry the same witness of the Lord and are one in our sharing.
Would that not be a great thing, that as the body of Christ we spoke as one?

 

[JohnW34]

Place it in context...and frame it to the audience to whom it was spoken and then maybe you will understand these verses.

Context - sinners called to repentance, to be washed clean by the baptism of John.
Failure to respond is to be cut down and destroyed in the fire.

We preach Christ, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit and new birth through repentance and faith.
Failure to respond is to thrown into the lake of fire.

Seems the context is identical, though Jesus brings much more to the table.

 

[mailmandan]

Don't project your personal experience onto others.
Just because you have not been tempted to go back to unbelief doesn't mean it's that way for all Christians.

Within the first year of my conversion, I was attacked from all sides, yet I never went back to unbelief. Thanks to the new birth (and not my personal will power) my faith is too engrained in me and I'm too convinced to ever want to depart from the faith. Where would I go?

You are either the 4th kind of soil in the Parable of the Sower in which Christ said the seed perseveres and is fruitful, or, you are still untested.

Not saying I will never be tested again, but I went through some harsh testing early into my conversion.

think in time you will see that it is not wise to make boasts of never having been tempted to go back, but instead you will humbly thank God you have made it thus far.

My boast is in the Lord and not in myself. I absolutely thank God for initially bringing me to faith and my continued faith.

Especially, according to your doctrine, because your believing to date doesn't mean anything. In your version of once saved always saved the only believing that matters is the believing that endures to the end, which you have yet to see if it will. You still have the future to see if you will believe to the very end showing yourself to be truly saved. You do not know what a day will bring that will expose you as not having really been saved all along.

This sounds very cynical.

In my doctrine, you are right now completely and totally saved and secure in Christ if you are at this moment trusting in Christ. And you will stay that way as long as you, with God's help, keep believing.

I praise the Lord for my salvation and security in Christ! I don't view continuing to believe as a difficult burden and I thank the Lord for His preservation.

 

[VCO]

And how is one to know if they are a sheep or a goat? By what they do.

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Chris, IT IS NOT WHAT THEY DID that is Rewarded, It is WHY they did what they DID DO FOR OTHERS. IT IS THAT AGAPE LOVE COMING OUT OF US. Without AGAPE LOVE, it is only WOOD, HAY, and STUBBLE, AT BEST. It will be burned, and they will get NOTHING, not even a tiny little Laurel Wreath for that kind of service to HIM. You do KNOW that SALVATION is not a reward, don't you? However Non-Perishable Laurel Wreath {could be gold, it does not say} is a VALID Reward.

Little works worthy of Rewards.

Lots of works worthy of Rewards. Notice In GREECE, they still give out Laurel Wreaths to the Winners, as in Paul's day. ONLY in Paul's day they were all PERISHABLE.

Here is proof that the WORKS HAVE TO BE MOTIVATED BY AGAPE LOVE:

1 John 3:16-18 (HCSB)
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.

 

[Judges1318]

This sounds very cynical.

Well, at least you didn't try to deny it.
I expected you to, lol.

I praise the Lord for my salvation and security in Christ! I don't view continuing to believe as a difficult burden and I thank the Lord for His preservation.

At least we have that much in common.
We both believe that you have to continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end. And that God is the source of the power to do that.
I just differ in that I say you can stop believing along the way. You say it's impossible to stop believing (if you are truly saved), which is a point I don't belabor too much because I know those who believe that probably have a harsh wake up call somewhere in their future to make them think twice about that doctrine.

 

[Melach]

Thank you. So is our imperfection then eternal, because it then means we always rely on God?

Luke 1:5-6
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

Luke 1:15-17
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Johns ministry was to turn the hearts of the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous.

This is the same ministry as brothers and sisters in Christ we all have.
Am I someone else? If that is a brother or sister in Christ, I hope we carry the same witness of the Lord and are one in our sharing.
Would that not be a great thing, that as the body of Christ we spoke as one?

that same person later disobeyed so doesnt work

we wont be imperfect for eternity because when we are resurrect we are perfect no flesh around anymore (corrupt flesh)-

why dont you answer my question are you macabeus?

i understand now why dcon is so fired up here. these people really are something else to deal with. its like a trainwreck you have to look but you also cant stand it.

 

[Chris1975]

Chris, IT IS NOT WHAT THEY DID that is Rewarded, It is WHY they did what they DID DO FOR OTHERS. IT IS THAT AGAPE LOVE COMING OUT OF US. Without AGAPE LOVE, it is only WOOD, HAY, and STUBBLE, AT BEST. It will be burned, and they will get NOTHING, not even a tiny little Laurel Wreath for that kind of service to HIM. You do KNOW that SALVATION is not a reward, don't you? However Non-Perishable Laurel Wreath {could be gold, it does not say} is a VALID Reward.

Little works worthy of Rewards.

Lots of works worthy of Rewards. Notice In GREECE, they still give out Laurel Wreaths to the Winners, as in Paul's day. ONLY in Paul's day they were all PERISHABLE.

Here is proof that the WORKS HAVE TO BE MOTIVATED BY AGAPE LOVE:

1 John 3:16-18 (HCSB)
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.

I partially agree and partially don't. I agree with your Agape points. But the goats don't have their works burned up and still get though the gate.

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree there are sheep and goats in both camps too. Being in a theological camp does not make a Christian, the New Birth does.

I just replied the way I did because no one is promoting security to sin all you want that I know of. If there is, I hope they come to the truth. But I can’t put my finger on anyone that is actually teaching that.

Christians desire Gods will, which includes their sanctification

The GOSPEL by which YOU ARE SAVED........

There is ONE gospel......if a MAN believes into a CORRUPTED GOSPEL there is NO salvation..........<---one of the MOST fatal errors within the ranks of so called Christianity.........!