Not By Works

[gb9]

Works are necessary not because they continue to earn salvation but because they are the inseparable result of justifying faith. Your faith without works is no more the faith that justifies than the faith without works that the demons have is justifying faith.

The writer of Hebrews makes the point that works accompany salvation:

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. - Hebrews 6:9-10

While the lack of works signifies a field that in the end will be burned.

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. - Hebrews 6:7-8

But this common variant of once saved always saved says nothing has to accompany salvation and that you can be a barren field and not be burned in the end. In other words, once saved always saved claims Hebrews 6:7-12 doesn't really mean what it says.

this is what I mean. you say truthfully that one has to believe, and continue to believe to be saved. you say that is all that is required.

but then, you keep talking, and attach works .


that is why you are a false teacher. you start out with truth, then talk yourself into a lie, then pluck 3 sentences out of a long letter to attempt to back up that lie..

 

[Chris1975]

This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Melach, I see your question, and I read some of the responses here to your question. Those who respond like to throw this into a CORPORATE category (as if applying this only to Israel corporately has no effect or implication on individuals). They then go and throw big words like Hermaneutics at you, as if there is a specialised way of interpretation, a sophisticated approach, as opposed to the very plain words of scripture.

Well lets put down a whole passage and see if this is purely corporate, or applied to the individual. Read it yourself, put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish family man standing in the hearing of Moses.


Deuteronomy 29
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet. 6 You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or similar drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 7 And when you came to this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out against us to battle, and we conquered them. 8 We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh. 9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant, and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
10 “All of you stand today before the Lord your God: your leaders and your tribes and your elders and your officers, all the men of Israel, 11 your little ones and your wives—also the stranger who is in your camp, from the one who cuts your wood to the one who draws your water— 12 that you may enter into covenant with the Lord your God, and into His oath, which the Lord your God makes with you today, 13 that He may establish you today as a people for Himself, and that He may be God to you, just as He has spoken to you, and just as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the Lord our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today 16 (for you know that we dwelt in the land of Egypt and that we came through the nations which you passed by, 17 and you saw their [b]abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold); 18 so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I [c]follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
20 “The Lord would not spare him; for then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the Lord would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the Lord would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law,


> I have not added or taken any words away from the above passage. Only highlighted the areas which make my point.
>So the next time that Hermaneutics are thrown your way, I recommend sitting back and just reading the plain words of God. Because what these false teachers are trying to mislead you with, that the above somehow does not apply to individuals, is simply to try establish you in a belief that serves a doctrine which is in error.
>Never give the responsibility for the understanding of your salvation to another man. Search the scriptures (including the OT) for yourself, and ask God to show you the truth. He is with you and He will lead you into all truth.

yes let’s just throw out a means god gave us to interpret Hs word.

lets look at another passage

God talking to joshua

No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and of good courage, for to this people you shall [a]divide as an inheritance the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

God gave the same promise to Abraham 8n Gen 15

the passage you are using speaks as a nation. Not as individuals. We know from history, god did forsake Isreal when they sinned against him, yet look at Daniel, Daniel was taken prisoner yet God, like abraham and Joshua, never forsook him

you people twist scripture so bad to make your beliefs believable, I honestly do not know how you can believe it yourself

contxxt is critical, is god talking to a nation, a group, or to individual people. you can not take things written to groups and apply them to people, in the word of god or in any book, doing so caused misinterpretation of what the author was trying to say

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Romans 11 is speaking of the nation of Isreal and gods gift to them, he called them as a nation, and gave them a plot of land.

that gift is irrevocable

try to equate romans 11 to personal salvation is destroying context of the passage

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not know how people go on with these workers. just let them talk, they hurt their own testimony and integrity by doing what they do. No open minded person comming seeking honest truth of the word would fall for their lies.

 

[Chris1975]

yes let’s just throw out a means god gave us to interpret Hs word.

lets look at another passage

God talking to joshua

No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and of good courage, for to this people you shall [a]divide as an inheritance the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

God gave the same promise to Abraham 8n Gen 15

the passage you are using speaks as a nation. Not as individuals. We know from history, god did forsake Isreal when they sinned against him, yet look at Daniel, Daniel was taken prisoner yet God, like abraham and Joshua, never forsook him

you people twist scripture so bad to make your beliefs believable, I honestly do not know how you can believe it yourself

contxxt is critical, is god talking to a nation, a group, or to individual people. you can not take things written to groups and apply them to people, in the word of god or in any book, doing so caused misinterpretation of what the author was trying to say

I already highlighted the red portions for you.

 

[Chris1975]

Romans 11 is speaking of the nation of Isreal and gods gift to them, he called them as a nation, and gave them a plot of land.

that gift is irrevocable

try to equate romans 11 to personal salvation is destroying context of the passage

You actually did not read what was written in this post at all, did you?

 

[Melach]

So you came to Aus at a bad time. Are you heading back to the USA soon to get back into the cool?

what are the good times to travel to australia? they are missing from my calendar

 

[Melach]

Been here almost 7 weeks...will be headed back the 14th...maybe stay in the U.S. a few weeks or so....

why do you go back and forth all the time? do you got some work there

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I already highlighted the red portions for you.

And that is supposed to mean something? It never did before, and it does not now

the facts remain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You actually did not read what was written in this post at all, did you?

I was just stating a fact about romans 11. For everyones view

Was I wrong?

 

[Chris1975]

I was just stating a fact about romans 11. For everyones view

Was I wrong?

Was I?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was I?

I do not read much you write, I consider it a waste of time anymore., So I would not know. I just saw in big letters Rom 11 and added a general comment.

 

[NayborBear]

Since a man can only speak for himself and give acout of himself to God, how do you fel bearing your own judgment while i go free of your dead works? And by the way the last man I had a fight with was about twenty years ago and we became friends after, but just anorher reason to be glad we will never meet.

"False wheat", and those of the "same grains?"
HATE, when they are "exposed!"
As can be seen in their incessant "mocking and scoffing", as they "seek the aid" of others in helping to "hide" themselves!

 

[Chris1975]

I do not read much you write, I consider it a waste of time anymore., So I would not know. I just saw in big letters Rom 11 and added a general comment.

Well, neither of us were wrong. We agreed on the general premise of Romans 11.

Now read the rest of it. I can assure you that there is pearls there for you too. Maybe next time don't be so quick to shoot down something you never analysed properly (post 120444 and 120445)

 

[PS]

Works are necessary not because they continue to earn salvation but because they are the inseparable result of justifying faith. Your faith without works is no more the faith that justifies than the faith without works that the demons have is justifying faith.

The writer of Hebrews makes the point that works accompany salvation:

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. - Hebrews 6:9-10

While the lack of works signifies a field that in the end will be burned.

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. - Hebrews 6:7-8

But this common variant of once saved always saved says nothing has to accompany salvation and that you can be a barren field and not be burned in the end. In other words, once saved always saved claims Hebrews 6:7-12 doesn't really mean what it says.

I am sorry, but I do not agree that works are necessary, and here is why:

Rom 11:5-6
(5) It is the same way now. God was kind to the people of Israel, and so a few of them are still his followers.
(6) This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's kindness.

Tit 3:5
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Melach]

Jesus lived under the law but why does Jesus still before resurrection change the law? He was supposed to fulfill it

like this:
"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.'

thats what the torah states in deuteronomy leviticus and many places. sometimes God even says make an oath in LORD's name only in Deuteronomy 6:13. so why does Jesus change it to:

"But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;"....

why does it change before resurrection of Jesus where new covenant comes? its almost like rebuking God. of course Jesus has power to change the law i got no problem with it, its just timing that concern me because it says new covenant begins when Jesus resurrects, but here this is said when Jesus is still not died and resurrected yet.

 

[PennEd]

Since a man can only speak for himself and give acout of himself to God, how do you fel bearing your own judgment while i go free of your dead works? And by the way the last man I had a fight with was about twenty years ago and we became friends after, but just anorher reason to be glad we will never meet.

Have you been drinking? Most of this post is inane gibberish.
Except of course yet another threat toward somebody.

 

[Melach]

Have you been drinking? Most of this post is inane gibberish.
Except of course yet another threat toward somebody.

ah yes drinking....... im sober still. gotta love being sober. life is so exciti.....

should i be worried that i speak inane gibberish while sober as well?

 

[PS]

Jesus lived under the law but why does Jesus still before resurrection change the law? He was supposed to fulfill it

like this:
"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.'

thats what the torah states in deuteronomy leviticus and many places. sometimes God even says make an oath in LORD's name only in Deuteronomy 6:13. so why does Jesus change it to:

"But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;"....

why does it change before resurrection of Jesus where new covenant comes? its almost like rebuking God. of course Jesus has power to change the law i got no problem with it, its just timing that concern me because it says new covenant begins when Jesus resurrects, but here this is said when Jesus is still not died and resurrected yet.

The whole of the Old Testament is spoken of as the law, the first five books are the law books.

We are told of Christ's coming in the law (it does not say the Pentateuch or the law books) and Christ's coming fulfilled the law i.e. the Old Testament.

I hope this helps.