I wonder how these two verses will play out with Christadelphians and Jehovah's Witnesses?

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TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
#41
Ironically I only posted what is written to show your error yet my lips are lying. such is life. :)
Also i normally don't get caught up with philosophy of articles. people claim the read the bible so that's where i keep it. or the dictionary and strongs concordance at times

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

----------------

Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

I showed examples of parallelism. You choose to misread it.

1578078472738.png


In chemistry and physics, the triple point is the temperature and pressure at which solid, liquid, and vapor phases of a particular substance coexist in equilibrium. It is a specific case of thermodynamic phase equilibrium. The term "triple point" was coined by James Thomson in 1873.

https://www.thoughtco.com/definition-of-triple-point-604674


human examples are not perfect.


3^0 = 1

1 x 1 x 1 = 1
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
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#43
It is made in the image as "likeness" as in attributes . Not mirror image as a reflection .God is Spirit .He is not a man as us. His glory as a source of faith remains invisible.
Someone that declares someone and acts on their behalf is a representative. Also we are Flesh and Spirit. Spirit was made before Flesh. The Most High is the Father of Spirits.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Our God never died but prepared a Passover lamb according to his works
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#44
I have gone through Mr. Bowman's account of the trinity. Although he uses the "trinity" label, I don't quite agree with him on his usage of "person." Sure, scripture seems to relate to God as a person; and certainly Christ was, but I don't think we should use that term for the Godhead. I don't use the "trinity" label but I understand those that do. All the rest of Mr. Bowman's statements seem right on to me. I agree with him that Jesus is fully God and was the Word (Spokesman-Logos) at creation.

I think it all comes down to man's finite mind trying to understand an infinite God. Can you describe being everywhere at once? Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit is. Wrap your mind around that. You can say it but you can't imagine it. What about hearing billions of prayers at the same time. No, you can't imagine the Holy Spirit. You want to call the Holy Spirit a person, go ahead. I will not. View attachment 209356

Acts 13:2 While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The Holy Spirit uses ego, I for himself which is the hallmark of being a person.

1 Cor 12:11 (NET)
12:11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.

(4) His guidance (Isa 48:16; Rom 8:14); (5) His comforting (John 14:26); (6) His prayer (Rom 8:26);
https://bible.org/seriespage/person-holy-spirit-part-1-person-holy-spirit
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#45
Someone that declares someone and acts on their behalf is a representative. Also we are Flesh and Spirit. Spirit was made before Flesh. The Most High is the Father of Spirits.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Our God never died but prepared a Passover lamb according to his works
Your proof texts do not prove that there is a mother god who gave birth to spirit children.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
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#46
all things have been created through Him and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
Who is the "Him" in this faithful saying?
Perhaps the image of the invisible God and the firstborn of every creature: that has declared his God and our God.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

----------------------

It does not matter that all things were created through him because it was not of his authority, or authorized of him, or his will.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Color coded so you can see the distinction.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
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#47
Your proof texts do not prove that there is a mother god who gave birth to spirit children.
There is an Originator of Spirits. A Father is an originator. For example Father of modern medicine, etc. I never mentioned anything about a mother God. your reply is a mute point. nothing that can be worked with.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#48
Before The Father was no God formed. Why?
neither after. same verse. Christ is not 'created' He is Creator -- all things which were made, made through Him, by Him, for Him.
majesty, authority, ownership, glory


congratulations, you proved the Christ is the I AM :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#49
first and foremost

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

image of invisible God. why?
. . who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
(Hebrews 1:3)

i heard an in-depth study of this Hebrews 1:3 once, in which the teacher went into the etymology & ancient use of the Greek word here translated as '
image' - χαρακτήρ, charaktér - saying it is a term associated with the work of an engraver or or other similar field of art, carrying the specific meaning of being an exact copy of a thing. it is like a print made from a block - the 'image' formed is in every way 100% identical to the block.

in mathematics an image is the set of output values that a function maps a subset of the domain to. a subset can be the entire domain - in which case, the associated image is the entirety of the range of the function. if the function is written f: A → B, then the image is B.
considering the case that Jesus Christ is called the "
image" of the invisible Almighty God, the 'set' being mapped is the I AM. we know that the function in question is a bijection ((1:1 & onto)) by Colossians 1:19 -- "all the fullness of God" dwells in Him ((thus, 1:1)) and Hebrews 1:3, being an exact representation ((thus, onto)) -- therefore the inverse of the function exists, and the image of A is the entire set B. Colossians 1 then, by calling the Son the "image" of God, is calling Him exactly equal to God - distinguishable only in that His appearing is the result of a transformative mapping from the invisible to the visible.

why?

because Gideon, for just one example, spoke with I AM THAT I AM as though he were speaking with a man - one having the form of a son of man.

Now the Angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth tree which was in Ophrah
(Judges 6:11)
someone visible & appearing as one of the sons of men appeared and spoke with Gideon.

Then YHWH turned to him and said,
“Go in this might of yours, and you shall save Israel from the hand of the Midianites. Have I not sent you?”
(Judges 6:14)
that 'someone visible' having the appearance of a man, is none other than I AM THAT I AM the Eternal Father, the Invisible God whom no one has seen at any time.

so, '
why' is Christ the Image of the invisible God? because His name is called Immanuel, which, being translated, means 'YHWH with us'

Jesus Christ is I AM. God manifest in the flesh ((1 Timothy 2:6)) -- in order to redeem you to Himself, that we be one, even as He is One. to open the eyes of the blind.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
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#50
. . who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
(Hebrews 1:3)

i heard an in-depth study of this Hebrews 1:3 once, in which the teacher went into the etymology & ancient use of the Greek word here translated as 'image' - χαρακτήρ, charaktér - saying it is a term associated with the work of an engraver or or other similar field of art, carrying the specific meaning of being an exact copy of a thing. it is like a print made from a block - the 'image' formed is in every way 100% identical to the block.

in mathematics an image is the set of output values that a function maps a subset of the domain to. a subset can be the entire domain - in which case, the associated image is the entirety of the range of the function. if the function is written f: A → B, then the image is B.
considering the case that Jesus Christ is called the "
image" of the invisible Almighty God, the 'set' being mapped is the I AM. we know that the function in question is a bijection ((1:1 & onto)) by Colossians 1:19 -- "all the fullness of God" dwells in Him ((thus, 1:1)) and Hebrews 1:3, being an exact representation ((thus, onto)) -- therefore the inverse of the function exists, and the image of A is the entire set B. Colossians 1 then, by calling the Son the "image" of God, is calling Him exactly equal to God - distinguishable only in that His appearing is the result of a transformative mapping from the invisible to the visible.


why?

because Gideon, for just one example, spoke with I AM THAT I AM as though he were speaking with a man - one having the form of a son of man.

Now the Angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth tree which was in Ophrah
(Judges 6:11)
someone visible & appearing as one of the sons of men appeared and spoke with Gideon.

Then YHWH turned to him and said,
“Go in this might of yours, and you shall save Israel from the hand of the Midianites. Have I not sent you?”
(Judges 6:14)
that 'someone visible' having the appearance of a man, is none other than I AM THAT I AM the Eternal Father, the Invisible God whom no one has seen at any time.

so, 'why' is Christ the Image of the invisible God? because His name is called Immanuel, which, being translated, means 'YHWH with us'

Jesus Christ is I AM. God manifest in the flesh ((1 Timothy 2:6)) -- in order to redeem you to Himself, that we be one, even as He is One. to open the eyes of the blind.
Not God with us literally .

Why?

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

--------------------------------------------

If Jesus is God then why did he not come in his own name and why is his doctrine not his own?

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#51
Not God with us literally .

Why?
LOL dude don't post stuff like that while i am sipping a drink please. i need to clean my screen now :rolleyes:

'why not God with us literally' ??

because you don't like what scripture actually says, apparently :LOL:


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?"
(John 14:8-9)
God is One. they worshipped Him, and were not rebuked. when Thomas called Him "my God" He replied, "you have believed"
welcome to Christianity. ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#52
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
why does He ask 'do you now believe?' in response to what they have said?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#53
I will walk among you and be your God
(Leviticus 16:12)
the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
(John 1:14)
not literally Immanuel??

c'mon man. ephphatha
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
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#54
why does He ask 'do you now believe?' in response to what they have said?
I am emphasizing coming forth from God does not equate to being God but actually coming forth from God.

When it comes to your question is better for me not to answer and you seek it out: I cannot answer that without needless tension.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
18
#55
I will walk among you and be your God
(Leviticus 16:12)
the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
(John 1:14)
not literally Immanuel??

c'mon man. ephphatha
sighs :cautious:

Literally the Son of God in the flesh of men walked among men. Not literally God himself see supporting scripture below

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#56
I am emphasizing coming forth from God does not equate to being God but actually coming forth from God.
you should not forget what being worshipped as God also equates to. the charge against Him for which He was crucified: making Himself equal to God. in this country, you can't be tried twice on the same charges: it has already been declared.

it is not as though this isn't a profound mystery; He speaks as Son of Man and also as Son of God; He speaks as Eternal Son and also He is called Everlasting Father. He is 'very God of very God and very man of very man' -- this is something not even angels understood.

we're not trying to argue the Son is not the Son. we're just hoping you'll confess that the Son is God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#57
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
you don't get to verse 14 without verse 1. The Word is I AM THAT I AM
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#58
I am emphasizing coming forth from God does not equate to being God but actually coming forth from God.

What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if thou canst tell?
(Proverbs 30:4)
where in the world does Agur get the idea that there is a Son of God?
can you tell what he is talking about?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#59
Our God never died
"I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,”
says the LORD God.
(Ezekiel 34:15)
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
(Psalm 23:1)
I AM The Good Shepherd.
The Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(John 10:11)
This is My name forever
(Exodus 3:15)
Jesus is something pretty special ;)
"singular" you might say
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,790
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#60
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty,
but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.

(Isaiah 55:11)