Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

[Lightskin]

In the view of some doctrine human is equal to "automaton" utterly incapable of anything but sin and a mind and heart so constrained by that sin they cannot even seek God... and yet how many times does Jesus tell us to seek Him.

Amen to this ^^^^
The people of whom you speak are blind guides. Let us join our hearts and pray for them.

 

[livingstones]

So, do you support the claims of Bethel Church?

Do you believe their "dead-raising" team has resurrected 15 people?

To be honest with you (and I'm sure you already know this), I don't even want to be associated with charismatics. Period. I think they cause Christianity to be ridiculed.

I do agree that miracles happen occasionally, but I don't agree that the vast majority of charismatic claims are credible.

I find it somewhat amusing that many charismatics, even if they claim they don't hold onto extremes, won't criticize those who practice unorthodox things. I think it's because they know that their own claims will be criticized if they do that. It's kind of a self-affirming situation.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of their claims to have resurrected 15 people. I left a church that was associated with Bethel. I believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit but I don't believe in some of the things they do. Bad experience and I am going to refrain from getting into detail but I didn't feel like the presence of God was there.

 

[livingstones]

What is your view of the faith required for healing someone?

Here's my view: the true believer is united with Christ. Therefore, Jesus' faith is their faith. If it is God's will for someone to be healed through the prayer of this believer, then the believer who is in union with Christ will know it, and can pray effectively (producing an effect) because it is God's will to heal the person through the believer.

If it's God's will that the person is going to be healed (or resurrected), the person will be healed (or resurrected).

Of course, in many charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith groups, they claim it is ALWAYS God's will to heal someone. Therefore, if the person isn't healed (or resurrected), they blame it on someone for their lack of faith, either the professed healer or the victim.

They fail to notice the plethora of reasons for suffering, including the fact that suffering conforms the person to the image of Christ. I sometimes wonder if they even read the Bible.

Had that happen to me in a Charismatic Church in Vancouver Canada back in the 80's. I was praying for a child. Everyone said I was healed. When I didn't get pregnant they blamed it on my faith and I fell away from the Lord. Eventually, years later after the doctor told me that I would never get pregnant I got pregnant. It was a miracle, and believe me I was as fallen away from the Lord as any person could be. But I did go back to church. I raised my children to know God because even in my sin He blessed me. And He made it known to me that my child and children were blessings.

 

[Guojing]

Had that happen to me in a Charismatic Church in Vancouver Canada back in the 80's. I was praying for a child. Everyone said I was healed. When I didn't get pregnant they blamed it on my faith and I fell away from the Lord. Eventually, years later after the doctor told me that I would never get pregnant I got pregnant. It was a miracle, and believe me I was as fallen away from the Lord as any person could be. But I did go back to church. I raised my children to know God because even in my sin He blessed me. And He made it known to me that my child and children were blessings.

I think the main gift that is debated is the gift of healing.

Did Jesus heal in the 4 Gospels mainly because

• He always wants to heal? Or
• To show the Jews that he was indeed the promised Messiah?

Cessationalists have the doctrine that it is mainly the latter. Thus, many miracles of healing did not require faith in the part of the receiver, although some probably did.

There were people raised from the dead, blind restored sight, lame started walking, and Jesus at quite a number of times declared that those healings were done to fulfill the prophecies about their coming Messiah (Luke 7:18-22).

Now the healings done by Christians are far less "powerful" and "certain" than what happened then. I think its quite clear that something has changed. We put so much emphasis on faith on the part of the receiver now.

 

[livingstones]

I think the main gift that is debated is the gift of healing.

Did Jesus heal in the 4 Gospels mainly because

• He always wants to heal? Or
• To show the Jews that he was indeed the promised Messiah?

Cessationalists have the doctrine that it is mainly the latter. Thus, many miracles of healing did not require faith in the part of the receiver, although some probably did.

There were people raised from the dead, blind restored sight, lame started walking, and Jesus at quite a number of times declared that those healings were done to fulfill the prophecies about their coming Messiah (Luke 7:18-22).

Now the healings done by Christians are far less "powerful" and "certain" than what happened then. I think its quite clear that something has changed. We put so much emphasis on faith on the part of the receiver now.

I think it definitely has to do with the faith of the person asking for the miracle. That was evident in all the healings that Jesus did. I have been to these faith healings many times. I am concerned that they are teaching people that they have the power to heal instead of the sick having the faith to be healed. Or that just because you lay your hands on a person they are going to be healed. Good Christians get sick and they even die. If it is Gods Will then we cannot change it.

I have seen it where they ask how do you feel? And if they don't confess the healing they keep praying. More, more. You cannot command Jesus to heal. Only God knows what is in a persons heart and it takes faith to be healed.

And another thing with this church is that they are promoting New Age and things that are not in the Bible. (my opinion) Like grave soaking or fork tuning. Those healings where they use meditation to bring up the past (Sozo). Things I have personally seen do not ring true. We have to test the spirits.

All of this of course is my own opinion. It is based on attending a charismatic church associated with Bethel. Last time I went to a Bethel related service was the last time I went.

 

[Guojing]

I think it definitely has to do with the faith of the person asking for the miracle. That was evident in all the healings that Jesus did. I have been to these faith healings many times. I am concerned that they are teaching people that they have the power to heal instead of the sick having the faith to be healed. Or that just because you lay your hands on a person they are going to be healed. Good Christians get sick and they even die. If it is Gods Will then we cannot change it.

I have seen it where they ask how do you feel? And if they don't confess the healing they keep praying. More, more. You cannot command Jesus to heal. Only God knows what is in a persons heart and it takes faith to be healed.

And another thing with this church is that they are promoting New Age and things that are not in the Bible. (my opinion) Like grave soaking or fork tuning. Those healings where they use meditation to bring up the past (Sozo). Things I have personally seen do not ring true. We have to test the spirits.

All of this of course is my own opinion. It is based on attending a charismatic church associated with Bethel. Last time I went to a Bethel related service was the last time I went.

The Gospel of Luke (22:49-51) describes Jesus healing the servant of a high priest during the Arrest of Jesus after one of the followers of Jesus had cut his right ear off: ... But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

It will be very hard to say that that servant had the faith there, he was part of the team that wanted to arrest Jesus in the dark.

 

[livingstones]

The Gospel of Luke (22:49-51) describes Jesus healing the servant of a high priest during the Arrest of Jesus after one of the followers of Jesus had cut his right ear off: ... But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

It will be very hard to say that that servant had the faith there, he was part of the team that wanted to arrest Jesus in the dark.

That is true. I don't have all the answers but I think that this was a different circumstance. The man was whole when they came to arrest him. Jesus used this as a lesson. Teaching them not to resist the authority. And remember that Jesus said to Peter "get behind me Satan". Because it was Gods Will that Jesus suffer and die.

So this is a much different circumstance then healing the sick. He wasn't sick. He was whole as they approached.

Matthew 26:52

“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword.

 

[Guojing]

That is true. I don't have all the answers but I think that this was a different circumstance. The man was whole when they came to arrest him. Jesus used this as a lesson. Teaching them not to resist the authority. And remember that Jesus said to Peter "get behind me Satan". Because it was Gods Will that Jesus suffer and die.

So this is a much different circumstance then healing the sick. He wasn't sick. He was whole as they approached.

Matthew 26:52

“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword.

Yeah, Jesus's ability to heal was supercharged during the 4 Gospels because the Jews needed signs and wonders to believe in him.

Now, it could be true that, since the Jews rejected their Messiah despite those signs, the time for healing as a sign gift might have ceased as well.

 

[livingstones]

That is true. I don't have all the answers but I think that this was a different circumstance. The man was whole when they came to arrest him. Jesus used this as a lesson. Teaching them not to resist the authority. And remember that Jesus said to Peter "get behind me Satan". Because it was Gods Will that Jesus suffer and die.

So this is a much different circumstance then healing the sick. He wasn't sick. He was whole as they approached.

Matthew 26:52

“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword.

Luke 17:19 19Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
Mark 5:34 34He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."
Luke 7:50 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 18:42 42Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

During one of Jesus' visits to the town of Capernaum, a centurion, through intermediaries, asked Jesus to heal the centurion's servant who was ill and near death. Jesus agreed to go to centurion's house and heal the centurion's servant. But the centurion, through his friends, told Jesus that the centurion felt unworthy to have Jesus come into his home. Jesus praised the centurion for his faith and the servant was healed.

Matthew 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10

 

[JohnR7]

5. Do you claim personally to have miraculous gifts such as healing or resurrecting the dead?

Yes the resurrection power of God is already at work in us. Or I would not be here having this conversation with you. People are born with the gift of healing. This is something you can photograph with the Kirlian camera.

 

[Guojing]

Luke 17:19 19Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
Mark 5:34 34He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."
Luke 7:50 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 18:42 42Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

During one of Jesus' visits to the town of Capernaum, a centurion, through intermediaries, asked Jesus to heal the centurion's servant who was ill and near death. Jesus agreed to go to centurion's house and heal the centurion's servant. But the centurion, through his friends, told Jesus that the centurion felt unworthy to have Jesus come into his home. Jesus praised the centurion for his faith and the servant was healed.

Matthew 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10

Yes, my point was not all healing miracles that Jesus did, required faith on the part of the receiver.

This is unlike now it seems, as you have also experienced for yourself

 

[livingstones]

Yeah, Jesus's ability to heal was supercharged during the 4 Gospels because the Jews needed signs and wonders to believe in him.

Now, it could be true that, since the Jews rejected their Messiah despite those signs, the time for healing as a sign gift might have ceased as well.

John 20:29
Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I don't think that healings have ceased. Jesus said you have not because you ask not. I believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. So I believe that through faith we can be healed, if it is Gods Will to heal us. I don't think it always is.

 

[Guojing]

John 20:29
Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I don't think that healings have ceased. Jesus said you have not because you ask not. I believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. So I believe that through faith we can be healed, if it is Gods Will to heal us. I don't think it always is.

Don't you find this paragraph of yours very contradicting?

If you are willing to entertain the doctrine that it is not always God's will to heal, you cannot pray for your healing in faith.

No prayer that goes, "God if its your will, please heal this disease" will ever be of faith, don't you think?

 

[livingstones]

Yes, my point was not all healing miracles that Jesus did, required faith on the part of the receiver.

This is unlike now it seems, as you have also experienced for yourself

It is not up to me to judge why a person does or does not receive healing. I believe that God heals the same as he healed then. Just because he is resurrected doesn't mean that He doesn't heal through the Holy Spirit. But I don't believe it is always Gods Will or timing.

 

[livingstones]

Don't you find this paragraph of yours very contradicting?

If you are willing to entertain the doctrine that it is not always God's will to heal, you cannot pray for your healing in faith.

No prayer that goes, "God if its your will, please heal this disease" will ever be of faith, don't you think?

No I don't think its a contradiction. When you pray do you always receive what you pray for? Sometimes it isn't Gods Will. A change in jobs. You might think God, I cant stand this job anymore. You might pray for another. Do you pray if it is your Will God please open the door for another or this or that position? Our Will doesn't always match God's Will or timing. So just like I prayed for a child it took 12 years but I did become pregnant. I was told I didn't have faith and that is why I lost my healing.

 

[Guojing]

No I don't think its a contradiction. When you pray do you always receive what you pray for? Sometimes it isn't Gods Will. A change in jobs. You might think God, I cant stand this job anymore. You might pray for another. Do you pray if it is your Will God please open the door for another or this or that position? Our Will doesn't always match God's Will or timing. So just like I prayed for a child it took 12 years but I did become pregnant. I was told I didn't have faith and that is why I lost my healing.

Did Jesus ever refuse to heal anyone by saying to them it is not the will of God?

And you said he is the same yesterday and forever

 

[livingstones]

This is conflicting. Different idea's of healing.

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-everyone.html

or Bill Johnson on healing

http://bjm.org/qa/is-it-always-gods-will-to-heal-someone/

 

[livingstones]

Did Jesus ever refuse to heal anyone by saying to them it is not the will of God?

And you said he is the same yesterday and forever

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/983-why-couldnt-jesus-perform-miracles-in-his-hometown

 

[Guojing]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/983-why-couldnt-jesus-perform-miracles-in-his-hometown

Lack of faith and unbelief is different from "It is not God's will".

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes the resurrection power of God is already at work in us. Or I would not be here having this conversation with you. People are born with the gift of healing. This is something you can photograph with the Kirlian camera.

I would agree that each believer has already experienced a physical resurrection, and their resurrection is assured through union with Christ, if that's what you are saying