Not By Works

[John146]

As gb9 says. Some people grow in the Lord, while others fade away, but that is not to say they were never saved in the first place. We do need to share fellowship, a fire needs to be kept burning and so do we.

I agree, that’s why all this talk about bearing fruit is troubling. There are some Christians that are not properly discipled, have no Bible, Church or any other godly influences in their lives. Actually, many may have anti-God people influencing them. These Christians could easily fall back into worldly living and you would never know they were saved.

 

[EleventhHour]

honestly, I think it looks different for everyone on the outside, but the inner change of heart will take place on the inside, if one truly comes to Christ.

however, if one does not grow the new faith, it will not translate into a strong, saving faith. it will just be a one-time emotional experience that will fade.......

Bible reading and a prayer life are a must to have a strong faith...

Spiritual regeneration never fades and is not an emotional experience.

Saving faith is a one time event that saves eternally ........apart from all works that may or may not follow.

 

[EleventhHour]

We did not choose Him but He chose us, not based on deeds we had done. He saved us by the washing and regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. He has made us to become His servants now by His choice.

Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But suppose the servant says to himself, "My master is taking a long time in coming", and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not award of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:42-48

He knows our deeds and He has told us whom we should fear. To him who overcomes, He will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God, Rev.2:7b. Everyone who hears the words of the Master and puts them into practice, is like the is like the wise man who built his house on the rock, Mt.7:24 That is the house that will not fall.

It's a life saver to be in the Word of God without doctrinal prejudice - to just be a disciple and drink from the water He gives us - perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2Cor.7:1 I haven't broken the tape yet. Run in such a way as to get the prize (1Cor.9:24b) for not everyone who says to Him "Lord, Lord" on that day will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Mt.7:21w/1Cor.12:3). A disciple lets Him be the Judge.

Grace is absolutely and never a quid pro event.

 

[mailmandan]

did you read what I just said??

I said " faith and trust in Christ".

you legalists spin and twist everything into self..

not of yourselves, a gift of God.

Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which “follows” is “works.” Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic Church several years ago, I remember that they basically defined faith “as” obedience/works, which explains why they (and others) teach salvation by faith “plus works.”

 

[Judges1318]

Simply put? "Election", is something one is "born from the womb" AS! And NOT what one becomes upon confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

That's the very fatalism I'm talking about.
Surely, God has more than just a degree of control in things, but to say we are purposely made, or not made ahead of time a person who will believe is destroying Christianity altogether for me. That's where I check out, thank you. What a meaningless gospel.

Although, "election" can be earned during one's life here in flesh. Dependant on one's capacity in "engaging in spiritual warfare!" (pretty simple, eh? )

No, Paul made it quite clear that election is based on God's predetermined plan for salvation to be through faith, not through works.

"so that God’s purpose according to His choice (election) would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls" - Romans 9:11

The reason for the adamant and relentless hatred against "election", and or "calvinism?", And, something which OSAS'ers, as well as every other denomination, INCLUDING "CALVINISM" Is, or should be stated as such:
ALL "elect", ARE, or shall BECOME believers and confessors of Jesus Christ!

Which begs the question, then, "Why have so many Israelites not believed?"
After all, they are the 'chosen' (elect) people of God.

Answer: Because the elect is a body, or nation of God's people, which people will enter into and exit until Jesus returns and the body of the elect is completed according to the way God saw it would be completed from before time began.

But?
Not ALL believers and confessors of Jesus Christ, are "elect!"

Take the 'believers' part out of that and I will agree with it.
The elect are defined as people chosen on the basis of believing and being born as the result of God's promise, not born as the result of natural works. So it follows that not all people presently dining among the body of the elect have been genuinely elected. If/when they have faith and are born of the promise of God, that is when they are truly counted in the body of the elect.

The "elect" are proven warriors from a previous period of time, or "everlasting." One COULD even "liken" them to Michael's angels:
Revelation 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

The only difference being, that the "elect" are in flesh bodies.

Okay, you're scaring me now.

....and then, there's the whole "predestination" thang! Which, simply put, is just the "when and where", the "how many, and how strong" of elect God places in what place/s of this heaven/earth age "timeline", in His "keeping on keeping on", of "the FAITH!"

There's a tiny shred of truth in what you're saying here.
God does know ahead of time who will, in the end, be among the elect, that is, he knows who in this life will be born as a result of the promise, not as the result of works. And he knows how to position them in history ahead of time to accomplish his ends. But to say he purposely made the soil of your heart believing soil, and someone else's not believing soil, well, that's where I get off the bus. That for me is the most meaningless of gospels.

If you be a thinkin' there's not a whole lotta differences between that which "the serpent" (Adam and Eve) done, what the "Pharoah" (Moses) did, what Herod (Jesus) did, and what "abortions" are doing?
You'd be a thinkin' correctly!

Okay..........
you're scaring me again.

 

[Judges1318]

while still attending the Roman Catholic Church several years ago, I remember that they basically defined faith “as” obedience/works

I thought I had heard correctly that they believe that.
And that is altogether different than any works salvation doctrines that I know of this side of the great divide between Catholicism and Evangelical Protestants.

 

[calibob]

Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which “follows” is “works.” Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic Church several years ago, I remember that they basically defined faith “as” obedience/works, which explains why they (and others) teach salvation by faith “plus works.”

I was the sacraments, statues, selling Holy Water and rosary beads that struck me first. Especially when I read the about the part where the Carpenter cleared the temple...

 

[Judges1318]

...Such as believing Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, if anyone claims to be a Christian and denies that they are walking in the spirit of antichrist and are not saved at all but are antichrists.

And if you make it all about that you've still missed the boat.
If the church devoted itself to making sure everyone knew this, but did not live for Christ, it would not matter how correct their doctrine is. The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love, not expressing itself in correct doctrines about God. But so many people in the church seem to think it's the correctness of their doctrines that constitutes saving faith. And they think that's what Christ is praising them for now, and will praise them for when they meet him face to face. They're in for a rude awakening.

 

[Discern]

And if you make it all about that you've still missed the boat.
If the church devoted itself to making sure everyone knew this, but did not live for Christ, it would not matter how correct their doctrine is. The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love, not expressing itself in correct doctrines about God. But so many people in the church seem to think it's the correctness of their doctrines that constitutes saving faith. And they think that's what Christ is praising them for now, and will praise them for when they meet him face to face. They're in for a rude awakening.

Do you think TFT is not living for Christ?
Why?

But I agree with you on your basic premise without applying it to anyone. . In Revelation, the Ephesians church had good doctrine, but had left their first love. Truth without love or love without truth. Both are bad.

 

[Judges1318]

so many people in the church seem to think it's the correctness of their doctrines that constitutes saving faith. And they think that's what Christ is praising them for now, and will praise them for when they meet him face to face. They're in for a rude awakening.

And how do you recognize these kinds of people?
They're all about 'spreading the gospel', church activities, programs, bake sales, tithing, getting involved in ministries, etc. but they do not live the way Jesus commands. These are the many people Christ will turn away at his coming:

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23


He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:23-28

They boast about and take false comfort in their doctrines, and are quite active and zealous and faithful to spread those doctrines, but they do not do what Jesus says. They will be turned away. Their doctrines and ministries did not equate to Him knowing them. He calls them 'evildoers'. They were deceived in this life as to what constitutes the faith that saves.

 

[Discern]

i think one aspect is double predestination based on lack of free will, and to be honest, I despise this aspect of calvinistic thinking, a term called fatalism,

then of course they hate what they term “free grace” and the fact again, free will issue with not being able to walk away.

so sadly, since they think the term OSAS came from calvinistic belief (I have no idea if it did or not, I always called it eternal security, not osas, based on the fact we have eternal life and the seal of the spirit) they link osas with calvin, and in response attack it like they do calvinism. Thus they are unable to listen or hear a thing anyone says.because they have their “calvinist” blinders on,

The double predestination thing is something I can’t get on board with either. I also prefer eternal security to osas. I agree with free grace, but hold that free grace includes newness of life and kept by the power of God

 

[Judges1318]

Do you think TFT is not living for Christ?

What's 'TFT'?

 

[Discern]

What's 'TFT'?

too fast turtle. The one you’re replying to. He seems like he has a heart for God.

 

[Judges1318]

We feed a fire with coal and sticks, and we need to feed our faith from the Word.

This 5-minute rule needs changing.

As long as it's not just the Word about various doctrines, but about how to live to please God.

 

[Judges1318]

too fast turtle. The one you’re replying to. He seems like he has a heart for God.

I have no clue how TFT lives.
But I have many clues from other posters here.
That's why they're on ignore.
They don't know that how they say something carries more weight than what they say.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

And how do you recognize these kinds of people?
They're all about 'spreading the gospel', church activities, programs, bake sales, tithing, getting involved in ministries, etc. but they do not live the way Jesus commands. These are the many people Christ will turn away at his coming:

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23


He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:23-28

They boast about and take false comfort in their doctrines, and are quite active and zealous and faithful to spread those doctrines, but they do not do what Jesus says. They will be turned away. Their doctrines and ministries did not equate to Him knowing them. He calls them 'evildoers'. They were deceived in this life as to what constitutes the faith that saves.

Ain’t that the truth. Lots of ‘Marthas’, not so many ‘Marys’. And Martha wasn’t baking cookies for the Devil. She was busy for Jesus... in her own way. Nadab and Abihu tried that. Didn’t work out too well.

 

[Judges1318]

I have no clue how TFT lives.

No, I take that back.
He seems like a nice chap who might actually care about living for Christ.
I guess what I was saying is he does not send clues through how he posts that would suggest he's not living for Christ.

 

[calibob]

I thought I had heard correctly that they believe that.
And that is altogether different than any works salvation doctrines that I know of this side of the great divide between Catholicism and Evangelical Protestants.

I was in Los Angeles County jail for street racing the first time I read a Gospel and was quite surprised The first time I read it. I stopped at Mary Star of the Sea RCC on the way home, looked around & I gave up Catholicism before I figured out what to believe. The lies were obvious. I had been catechized, confessed, communioned, confirmed and had a partial Catholic School education. 11 years worth and never read a whole Chapter of the Bible before in my life. I investigated LDS, JW's Scientology and UFOlogy. Thank the Lord I met some people in a park singing and having a Bible study a few years later.

 

[Judges1318]

And if you make it all about that you've still missed the boat.

Not 'you' personally, TFT. Just anybody in particular.

 

[Judges1318]

I was in Los Angeles County jail for street racing the first time I read a Gospel and was quite surprised The first time I read it. I stopped at Mary Star of the Sea RCC on the way home, looked around & I gave up Catholicism before I figured out what to believe. The lies were obvious. I had been catechized, confessed, communioned, confirmed and had a partial Catholic School education. 11 years worth and never read a whole Chapter of the Bible before in my life. I investigated LDS, JW's Scientology and UFOlogy. Thank the Lord I met some people in a park singing and having a Bible study a few years later.

That's what I like......New Testament kind of church.