Not By Works
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I believe we are getting closer.
To your points above:
Point 2:- Those Born of God will be found in Faith. And its a continual faith without drawing back. If you draw back from the faith, how could you possibly overcome the world. So the Born of God are always found in Faith. I used an example a few days ago about a Satanist who hears the gospel and converts to Christianity through belief in Jesus and His shed blood on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead. He lives for a few years evangelising the gospel, conducting bible studies etc. However one day his friends from the past life entice him back into compromise. One thing leads to another and he falls back into full time Satanism, renouncing Christ along the way. My question to you is this: Are you saying he was NEVER a believer? If you say that, then who in this Forum could be considered a believer, since we all claim to believe but none of us know for certain which of us might fall away in the same way as the man in this example I have cited. So no, he was a believer but drew back. There are dozens and dozens of verses dealing with this very thing. And in the end, this Satanist could not possibly be saved, or Elect.
Point 3:- Its not about a set of creeds or doctrines. Its only scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. We debate by sharing scriptures with one another (quite actively !!) and hopefully Spirit led. Its the Ephesians 4 building up the church. I go purely based on bible scriptures and not a set of Acronym lead teaching progams. I believe such programs create paradigms which can be hard to dislodge.
Point 6: We are still in agreement.
The only point of difference is really your last statement and point 2 of mine. I believe there are those who can genuinely believe in Jesus Christ (He won't turn them away), however by their own lusts be led astray which can eventually, left unaddressed lead to Apostasy. These were at one stage believers but were never Elect.
Applying Election scriptures to ALL BELIEVERS will lead to issues with other scriptures as we can see on this Forum.
To your points above:
Point 2:- Those Born of God will be found in Faith. And its a continual faith without drawing back. If you draw back from the faith, how could you possibly overcome the world. So the Born of God are always found in Faith. I used an example a few days ago about a Satanist who hears the gospel and converts to Christianity through belief in Jesus and His shed blood on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead. He lives for a few years evangelising the gospel, conducting bible studies etc. However one day his friends from the past life entice him back into compromise. One thing leads to another and he falls back into full time Satanism, renouncing Christ along the way. My question to you is this: Are you saying he was NEVER a believer? If you say that, then who in this Forum could be considered a believer, since we all claim to believe but none of us know for certain which of us might fall away in the same way as the man in this example I have cited. So no, he was a believer but drew back. There are dozens and dozens of verses dealing with this very thing. And in the end, this Satanist could not possibly be saved, or Elect.
Point 3:- Its not about a set of creeds or doctrines. Its only scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. We debate by sharing scriptures with one another (quite actively !!) and hopefully Spirit led. Its the Ephesians 4 building up the church. I go purely based on bible scriptures and not a set of Acronym lead teaching progams. I believe such programs create paradigms which can be hard to dislodge.
Point 6: We are still in agreement.
The only point of difference is really your last statement and point 2 of mine. I believe there are those who can genuinely believe in Jesus Christ (He won't turn them away), however by their own lusts be led astray which can eventually, left unaddressed lead to Apostasy. These were at one stage believers but were never Elect.
Applying Election scriptures to ALL BELIEVERS will lead to issues with other scriptures as we can see on this Forum.
NO, it may be to the untrained eye, that a Baby does not have much FRUIT, thereby compared to Psuedo Christian with NO ROOTS, seems the same. However, a Born Again can Tell by their FRUIT, ESPECIALLY AGAPE LOVE, and Lack of It, which the Psuedo Christian has NONE OF. No Roots into good soil, equals NO Spiritual Fruit.
Those kind of people will always be more interested in foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, WHILE truly Born Again Believers will want to talk about Loving Him and the Brethren, even meeting their NEEDS.
My Love for the LORD, burned red hot the night I was Born Again, and I ABSOLUTELY totally Trusted Him from the moment I truly surrendered to HIM out of pure AGAPE LOVE, the first night HE SAVED ME. That AGAPE LOVE was something I NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE, and it was exciting to know I WAS SAVED FOR SURE, FOREVER. In case you do not know, that Spawns from GOD's LOVE that HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT PUT INTO OUR HEARTS [Human Spirits], and it is the a Reproduction OF THE SEED OF LOVE HE SOWED IN OUR HEARTS, TRUSTING HIM TOTALLY, Rom. 5:5.
The last Jehovah Witness I confronted at my front door, just wanted to ARGUE WITH ME, and I saw NO EVIDENCE of any Spiritual Fruit, That is very typical, of any person that has not yet been Born Again.
Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
Knowing you are saved. Only you can know. I agree. We don’t know for sure about anyone else.
And the scriptures are very clear about how we can know we have been gifted with God’s Spirit. Especially John and Paul
Point being, it’s not what we do that gives us assurance, it’s what He does in us.
If I went by what I do, I would not have assurance. But I have full assurance based on what He has done and is doing
And the scriptures are very clear about how we can know we have been gifted with God’s Spirit. Especially John and Paul
Point being, it’s not what we do that gives us assurance, it’s what He does in us.
If I went by what I do, I would not have assurance. But I have full assurance based on what He has done and is doing
I don't actually ascribe ANY names to what I believe (Calvinism/Armenianism, TUPLI Mania 
) I go simply by the scriptures and what is plain to read - relying on the Holy Spirit to teach.
Will there be element of overlap into these areas. Possibly. I don't study TULIP or Calvinism or any of the ISM's. I care not about this. Bible is sufficient.
The ones who draw back were never Elect. Were they born of God? Well the bible says something quite mysterious about those who are born of God:
John 3
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
And I would hazard a guess that not many here would truly be able to give deep insight into this passage without the Spirit revealing this to them. I personally have taken the position that those who receive Christ are born of God (for their spirit comes alive at that point. For how would you be led by the Spirit as a Christian otherwise. I am open to other thoughts about this passage above.
So when it comes to Apostates (ones who have lost the faith), I take the position that Yes they must have once been in the faith. For otherwise they would simply would have not been given that term.
) I go simply by the scriptures and what is plain to read - relying on the Holy Spirit to teach.Will there be element of overlap into these areas. Possibly. I don't study TULIP or Calvinism or any of the ISM's. I care not about this. Bible is sufficient.
The ones who draw back were never Elect. Were they born of God? Well the bible says something quite mysterious about those who are born of God:
John 3
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
And I would hazard a guess that not many here would truly be able to give deep insight into this passage without the Spirit revealing this to them. I personally have taken the position that those who receive Christ are born of God (for their spirit comes alive at that point. For how would you be led by the Spirit as a Christian otherwise. I am open to other thoughts about this passage above.
So when it comes to Apostates (ones who have lost the faith), I take the position that Yes they must have once been in the faith. For otherwise they would simply would have not been given that term.
Discern, I would propose you consider these two out of a myriad of verses around this topic:
1 Corinthians 1v18
18 For the [g]message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 15v1,2
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain
>these ARE BELIEVERS. They received the gospel. They Stand currently in the gospel. They are currently saved (IF) they hold fast (remain in faith).
>those who once believed but then fell back, they believed in vain, for they didn't hold on.
>those who fall back are apostate.
So Justification, being a one time event, is very much paired with ongoing sanctification (process). Apostates are no longer justified.
1 Corinthians 1v18
18 For the [g]message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
- this is the sanctification aspect, and its the BEING SAVED element (we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved). We are positionally saved through justification. We are being saved by the leading of the HS, and we will be saved by our glorification.
1 Corinthians 15v1,2
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain
>these ARE BELIEVERS. They received the gospel. They Stand currently in the gospel. They are currently saved (IF) they hold fast (remain in faith).
>those who once believed but then fell back, they believed in vain, for they didn't hold on.
>those who fall back are apostate.
So Justification, being a one time event, is very much paired with ongoing sanctification (process). Apostates are no longer justified.
Galatians 5, particularly the fruit of the Spirit passages.
1 John- the entire epistle written so that we may know we have eternal life. ( just realize that chapter 3 is not about sinless perfection, but about direction and tenor of life(walk)
1 Corinthians 1-2
Spiritual gifts can be counterfeited. But the fruit of the Spirit is confirmed through tasting. It is something that cannot be explained, only known
We know We have received the Spirit, because we believe. 1 John 5:1. This verse is not merely speaking about a mere adherance to a creed. It is a powerful conviction and assurance that is much more powerful than any of us can arrive at on our own
Again, cannot be explained, but people who have received this gift know exactly what I mean.
1 John- the entire epistle written so that we may know we have eternal life. ( just realize that chapter 3 is not about sinless perfection, but about direction and tenor of life(walk)
1 Corinthians 1-2
Spiritual gifts can be counterfeited. But the fruit of the Spirit is confirmed through tasting. It is something that cannot be explained, only known
We know We have received the Spirit, because we believe. 1 John 5:1. This verse is not merely speaking about a mere adherance to a creed. It is a powerful conviction and assurance that is much more powerful than any of us can arrive at on our own
Again, cannot be explained, but people who have received this gift know exactly what I mean.
What is the tense of the verb “you are saved” in 1 Cor 15 I’ll have to look it up later
For now I will simply say that the fact that God has brought me “through many dangers, toils, and snares gives me great assurance and confidence that He will continue to do so.
I don’t like to overly debate the Bible, but consider the tense of the verb in 1 Cor 15:1. Also, in the other verse, we are being saved by the power of God through faith, and because of Christ’s present mediation. Having been reconciled through His death, we shall be saved through His Life
🙂
For now I will simply say that the fact that God has brought me “through many dangers, toils, and snares gives me great assurance and confidence that He will continue to do so.
I don’t like to overly debate the Bible, but consider the tense of the verb in 1 Cor 15:1. Also, in the other verse, we are being saved by the power of God through faith, and because of Christ’s present mediation. Having been reconciled through His death, we shall be saved through His Life
🙂
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Only God knows the heart if one truly believes in Christ and who can know it? The Bible says the heart is deceitful above all things. Assurance thing is in the scripture that God assures salvation 100% hence, once saved always saved. The situation as an example seems contradict of what the first two sentences, if you are born of God you will remain in the faith. Those who draw back are really never in the faith, never in Christ. They have profession but not possession.
Chris was replying to me, because I said we are not saved by creeds. A creed is a statement of belief. It can be a statement that is faithful 100 percent to the Bible, but that was not my point
My point was, intellectual adherance to a statement of faith, whether it be “the Lord our God is One” or the apostles creed, or our own statement of faith, that is not what saves you. The truth needs to go further than your head and take root in your heart
What saves us is the gift of God, as stated in Ephesians 2:8-10. As a gift, it goes much deeper than something we accomplish by ourselves. As it states, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
I know you know this, but just to make plain what I meanif anyone doesn’t
My point was, intellectual adherance to a statement of faith, whether it be “the Lord our God is One” or the apostles creed, or our own statement of faith, that is not what saves you. The truth needs to go further than your head and take root in your heart
What saves us is the gift of God, as stated in Ephesians 2:8-10. As a gift, it goes much deeper than something we accomplish by ourselves. As it states, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
I know you know this, but just to make plain what I meanif anyone doesn’t
No, this passage says,
[v.2] by [means of] which YE ARE [present indicative] saved, IF [in-fact] you-hold-fast [like we say, 'you hold to'] the word *I [PAUL]* proclaimed to you [a certain 'message' which NECESSARILY [/VITALLY] INCLUDES 'His RESURRECTION'], unless you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"
(and later on down in the passage explains what to "BELIEVE *IN VAIN*" means, and that means "to leave off the VITAL TRUTH of His 'RESURRECTION'"... THAT is to "BELIEVE *IN VAIN*"... which some among them WERE saying "there is no resurrection of the dead," v.12).
You have to understand the CONTEXT, here.
[the word 'you hold to' / 'you hold fast' means that you base your belief ON THAT FACT]
[v.2] by [means of] which YE ARE [present indicative] saved, IF [in-fact] you-hold-fast [like we say, 'you hold to'] the word *I [PAUL]* proclaimed to you [a certain 'message' which NECESSARILY [/VITALLY] INCLUDES 'His RESURRECTION'], unless you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"
(and later on down in the passage explains what to "BELIEVE *IN VAIN*" means, and that means "to leave off the VITAL TRUTH of His 'RESURRECTION'"... THAT is to "BELIEVE *IN VAIN*"... which some among them WERE saying "there is no resurrection of the dead," v.12).
You have to understand the CONTEXT, here.
[the word 'you hold to' / 'you hold fast' means that you base your belief ON THAT FACT]