Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

[UnitedWithChrist]

A common claim by charismatics is that Christians are performing all the works that Jesus did during his earthly ministry.

Here's a verse that they commonly go to:

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

This claim came to a test recently with claims that Bethel Church (pastored by Bill Johnson) made concerning the death of a child of a member.

They "declared" that God would resurrect this child. However, this resurrection never occurred, and Bethel Church, again, is proved to be in gross error by claiming that they have such powers as believers.

Anyone who wants to research this can go to Youtube where various podcasts have clips from Bethel services concerning this.

Is this sort of delusion harmful? I think it is, because deceived believers are left with unmet expectations when claims like this are proven to be false.

Anyways, here's some discussion questions:

1. Are Christians, individually, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
2. Are Christians, collectively, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
3. What are we to conclude about Christians who claim they are doing such miracles? Are they deluded, lying, mentally ill, telling the truth? Or, is it a mixture?
4. What incidences of miracles have you seen? Were these miracles a result of church prayer, or individual prayer?
5. Do you claim personally to have miraculous gifts such as healing or resurrecting the dead?
6. Do you think that you personally can perform the miracles of Jesus at your will?
7. Is suffering a necessary part of the Christian lifestyle?

Now, before we start answering these questions, here's my view:

I believe most charismatics making audacious claims are either lying or deluded. Why would they do that? Maybe to get attention or to gain credibility as a great spiritual person

I believe it is possible for God to perform a miracle based on the prayers of the Church or the prayers of an individual. However, I believe such miracles are mostly attached to the proclamation of the gospel, and that they are mainly due to collective church prayer and not an individual.

I believe that irresponsible charismatic claims harm the Church, because, unfortunately, they are associated with Christianity and if the claims are lies or delusions, they reflect badly on the church as a whole, and in fact are causing God's name to be blasphemed amongst unbelievers (a violation of the second commandment regarding taking God's name in vain). As a former cultist, Christianity as a whole was disregarded by me, in part, because of the antics of the Word of Faith/charismatic/Pentecostal believers.

I don't believe that Christians as a whole perform miracles at will. When God wants to perform a miracle for his sovereign purposes, he prompts the prayer that leads to the miracle. However, his sovereign purposes may include suffering. In fact, I don't believe sanctification occurs without suffering.

Guys like Bill Johnson of Bethel claim there is no place for a theology of suffering. I am left wondering if he has even read the Bible. Scripture clearly teaches that suffering is used by God to bring the person to sanctification and glorification. In many ways, the life of the Christian mirrors Jesus Christ, in the sense that his suffering led to his exaltation and glorification. It really takes a theological buffoon to say some of the things I've heard from Word of Faith/charismatics in regards to suffering, and claiming that it is not God's will for believers to suffer.

That is one way I can tell whether someone is a babe in Christ, still nursing and in diapers, versus a mature believer. At best, the guy who thinks God is his cosmic Genie who is there to keep him from experiencing bad circumstances is a babe in Christ. He is still nursing and still in diapers, and unfortunately many in the Word of faith/charismatic movements are still there.

But, getting back to the Bethel antics regarding the resurrection of this child, I wonder how they will deal with that. Their shame is evident. And, I imagine the parents will feel guilty..what didn't we do right that this declared resurrection did not occur?

This is part of the madness of the charismatic/Word of Faith movement.

Additionally, be aware that Bethel purportedly has some sort of "resurrection squad" that follows first responders around and attempts to resurrect people needing emergency services. My understanding is that they claim they have resurrected 15 people this way.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, regarding this option:

No, but collective prayer of the saints and individuals sometimes result in miracles


I don't have enough room to elaborate on the choices, but if I had more room, I would have said:

No, but collective prayer of the saints and individuals (sometimes) result in miracles according to God's will and sovereign purpose.

As I have said, I have no doubt that God still performs miracles, on the basis of his sovereign will and purpose in a given circumstance.

However, I don't think these miracles occur apart from God's sovereign will, and I believe they have a redemptive purpose.

I am more than suspicious about individuals who claim to have the ability to heal.

One dominant example of this is Todd White.

First question I would have for Todd is why he focuses on people who have conditions that are not easily visible, such as a missing body part. He is primarily claiming healing of "short legs". These are trivial claims and easily dismissed.

Second question I would have for Todd relates to his claim of sinlessness. He claims he hasn't sinned in 11 years. I don't believe this, and I don't think "sinless" people understand what the requirements of God are.

Third question I would have for Todd is why he hangs out with Kenneth Copeland, and has absorbed his faulty theology that Jesus needed to be "born again". This is a blasphemous claim, as being born again only applies to fallen men. Copeland and the other nuts who teach this are blasphemers.

 

[Hevosmies]

Anyways, here's some discussion questions:

1. Are Christians, individually, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
2. Are Christians, collectively, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
3. What are we to conclude about Christians who claim they are doing such miracles? Are they deluded, lying, mentally ill, telling the truth? Or, is it a mixture?
4. What incidences of miracles have you seen? Were these miracles a result of church prayer, or individual prayer?
5. Do you claim personally to have miraculous gifts such as healing or resurrecting the dead?
6. Do you think that you personally can perform the miracles of Jesus at your will?
7. Is suffering a necessary part of the Christian lifestyle?

1. Not me! Atleast so far no

2. Jesus did say we can do miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, and I dont wanna say God CANT or WONT.

3. We are to look at the fruits of each INDIVIDUALLY and make a judgment call, but the prosperity go$pel preachers we can just throw to the theological trash bin straight away, they are all parasites on christendom and I feel bad for the poor people they rip off, these guys are BUMS, not only spiritually but physically, living off of poor christians' backs while they are pro$pering. Jesus dont like that!

4. I have seen people get cured of asthma, lactose intolerance, proteine allergy (I had this myself and was healed of it, thru individual man praying for me and I prayed myself of course), I have been close to dying many times yet lived I count those as miracles others would say its luck so perhaps that dont count to yall, i've seen people get healed from glaucoma and one person had disks in his spine re-arranged by God, legit over night and all these are verified by doctors by the way, that the condition is cleared. I wont mention the ones I got no verification for.

5. I dont claim nothing personally, but i am totally awesome and one of my main gifts is being so humble about it

6. Nope

7. I believe we are promised tribulation and suffering while on this earth. Many times hardship, pain, suffering are the periods of GROWTH in a man's life. Someone who is always running from pain and adversity will never grow and will always be a loser. I wish I could embrace difficulty more as well.

 

[Dino246]

This claim came to a test recently with claims that Bethel Church (pastored by Bill Johnson) made concerning the death of a child of a member.

They "declared" that God would resurrect this child. However, this resurrection never occurred, and Bethel Church, again, is proved to be in gross error by claiming that they have such powers as believers.

Bethel is not "proved to be in gross error" by this situation. The only thing that was proved is that the declaration was erroneous; they did not claim, according to you, that they would resurrect the child, but that God would. I don't see any connection between the declaration and the alleged claim. Error in one area certainly doesn't prove error in another.

I don't follow Bethel or Johnson, and I have heard conflicting reports of their faithfulness to Scripture. If you're going to use examples from their own material, providing citations or links shows responsible reporting. Otherwise, you're just spouting rumours. Telling people to do their own research is not adequate when you are claiming they are in "gross error"; provide the evidence.

Conflating the people of Bethel with other charismatics and their claims is also irresponsible. God will not judge Bethel for the errors of other charismatics, nor should we. As Jesus says, "Stop looking at mere appearances, and make a right judgement."

 

[posthuman]

Additionally, be aware that Bethel purportedly has some sort of "resurrection squad" that follows first responders around and attempts to resurrect people needing emergency services. My understanding is that they claim they have resurrected 15 people this way.

that's this:

http://deadraisingteam.com/

and for $250 you can attend a seminar where they will teach you to pray for the dead, too!

here's the "15" claim:



i didn't find any evidence or documentation apart from the highlighted text above, from their 'about' page. i did find dozens of articles / blogs / op-eds decrying them, tho. they probably would characterize such criticism as 'the world hates us' kind of thing, tho its coming from Christian publications like pulpitandpen etc. just as much as it is from atheist sites having a laugh mocking them.

 

[Lightskin]

Jesus says we are empowered so why question His proclamations on the matter?

 

[BenFTW]

It’s easy to question and debate their theology, but how much harder is it to step out in their faith? Which of you has the boldness to lay hands for healing? To dare tell a man to rise out of a wheel chair? To cover the eyes of the blind and tell them to see, or the deaf to hear?

Imagine their level of faith, call it delusion if you want, but their actions and beliefs put you to shame. Where is your faith? Or is your theology just a veiled excuse to not step out? Where is your love? Or is that too hindered by your beliefs? That they believe and actually step out in faith you ought to applaud.

You should be rooting for them! If it were possible, encourage them! Could you imagine the fruit of the miraculous, the impact it would make in people’s lives? You should be on your knees interceding for these people, that they would actually witness God’s goodness.

Do you not desire to see God glorified? Here’s something to ponder. If not you, who? If you aren’t willing to administer healing in the name of Jesus, they will. If you aren’t willing to believe for the impossible, they will. Call it what you will, but at least through their actions, if it were possible, the miraculous would occur. And if it is possible, where does that put you and your faith?

 

[KhedetOrthos]

Anyways, here's some discussion questions:

1. Are Christians, individually, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
2. Are Christians, collectively, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?

No.

3. What are we to conclude about Christians who claim they are doing such miracles? Are they deluded, lying, mentally ill, telling the truth? Or, is it a mixture?

Probably a mixture. If you look at the leadership of such organizations, they’ve earned millions in worldly profit by misleading and lying to their flocks. They live in mansions. They fly on private jets. As far as the flock goes, a strong delusion and misplaced hope. If you’ve lost a child, you’re in a state of extreme grief. If someone claiming to be a brother and sister in Christ comes along and says that they can replicate the resurrection of Lazarus you want to believe. They take your money and eventually when reality catches up with the situation, perhaps your faith as well.

4. What incidences of miracles have you seen? Were these miracles a result of church prayer, or individual prayer?

Me personally? Not one. That having been said, there is a well documented miracle of the holy fire returning to Jesus tomb...“annually on the day preceding Orthodox Easter, a blue light emanates within Jesus Christ's tomb (usually rising from the marble slab covering the stone where Jesus' body was placed for burial) now in the Holy Sepulchre, which eventually forms a column containing a form of fire, from which candles are lit, which are then used to light the candles of the clergy and pilgrims in attendance. The fire also spontaneously lights other lamps and candles around the church. Holy Fire does not burn or hurt the Faithful.”

Of course, nobody gets rich off these sorts of “ordinary” miracles.

5. Do you claim personally to have miraculous gifts such as healing or resurrecting the dead?
6. Do you think that you personally can perform the miracles of Jesus at your will?

I’m a doctor so I plead the fifth. Just kidding. In all seriousness, no I don’t claim such miraculous powers.

7. Is suffering a necessary part of the Christian lifestyle?

Does take up your cross and follow me sound more like suffering, or more like your best life now? It’s been a necessary part of the Christian life since the beginning.

 

[KhedetOrthos]

A discussion of the annual appearance of Holy Fire at Christ’s tomb.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

that's this:

http://deadraisingteam.com/

and for $250 you can attend a seminar where they will teach you to pray for the dead, too!

here's the "15" claim:

View attachment 208857

i didn't find any evidence or documentation apart from the highlighted text above, from their 'about' page. i did find dozens of articles / blogs / op-eds decrying them, tho. they probably would characterize such criticism as 'the world hates us' kind of thing, tho its coming from Christian publications like pulpitandpen etc. just as much as it is from atheist sites having a laugh mocking them.

Thanks for the details. I just read about them on some articles.

 

[KhedetOrthos]

Then there’s this...

The Face of God

...that is more than likely the item described in John‘s gospel, found by Peter on Easter morning folded the tomb.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Jesus says we are empowered so why question His proclamations on the matter?

So, do you support the claims of Bethel Church and Bill Johnson in this regard?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It’s easy to question and debate their theology, but how much harder is it to step out in their faith? Which of you has the boldness to lay hands for healing? To dare tell a man to rise out of a wheel chair? To cover the eyes of the blind and tell them to see, or the deaf to hear?

Imagine their level of faith, call it delusion if you want, but their actions and beliefs put you to shame. Where is your faith? Or is your theology just a veiled excuse to not step out? Where is your love? Or is that too hindered by your beliefs? That they believe and actually step out in faith you ought to applaud.

You should be rooting for them! If it were possible, encourage them! Could you imagine the fruit of the miraculous, the impact it would make in people’s lives? You should be on your knees interceding for these people, that they would actually witness God’s goodness.

Do you not desire to see God glorified? Here’s something to ponder. If not you, who? If you aren’t willing to administer healing in the name of Jesus, they will. If you aren’t willing to believe for the impossible, they will. Call it what you will, but at least through their actions, if it were possible, the miraculous would occur. And if it is possible, where does that put you and your faith?

So, do you support the claims of Bethel Church?

Do you believe their "dead-raising" team has resurrected 15 people?

To be honest with you (and I'm sure you already know this), I don't even want to be associated with charismatics. Period. I think they cause Christianity to be ridiculed.

I do agree that miracles happen occasionally, but I don't agree that the vast majority of charismatic claims are credible.

I find it somewhat amusing that many charismatics, even if they claim they don't hold onto extremes, won't criticize those who practice unorthodox things. I think it's because they know that their own claims will be criticized if they do that. It's kind of a self-affirming situation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'd like to add one other possible motives for charismatics.

To promote their own superior spirituality...it's a form of elitism.

There are those who are "spirit-filled" and those who are not, according to many of them.

They are the ones who are "spirit-filled", and there are those who are not.

Many feed on this.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

A discussion of the annual appearance of Holy Fire at Christ’s tomb.

Is this an Eastern Orthodox teaching?

I don't know if it's related, but I have seen these Coptic guys go into a building with an unlit candle, and come out with a lit candle.

I think they are Coptics.

They then pass the candle around so that others can light their candle with it.

I believe their priest, or whatever he is, strips down to barely nothing before he walks in, in order to prove he doesn't have materials to light a candle. However that proves nothing, as the utensils can be hidden in the building.

 

[KhedetOrthos]

A teaching? Not really.

Unlike the charismatic/pentecostal movement, you don’t have to believe in these occurrences as a witness of your faith. Also, unlikely charismatic/Pentecostal miracles, they are never there to glorify the ministry of some specific latter day self appointed “apostle”...and there is zero relationship between your monetary giving and the result - none of this sow a seed nonsense.

i have a fairly scientific bent about things, so when a physicist documents the spontaneous generation of plasma in Christ‘s tomb every Easter that gets me to at least consider the validity of the claim. Much more so than a Pentecostal healing service that occurs across the street from a hospital that is just as full after it as it was before it.

 

[presidente]

Bad poll. What about other variants with 'yes' that do not say 'at will'. Did the 12 apostles do miracles completely 'at will'?

Why didn't John raise James from the dead? Why did Peter pray before raising Tabitha?

When some of the apostles could not cast a demon out of a child Jesus said it was because of their unbelief. He did not blame their will.

 

[Lightskin]

So, do you support the claims of Bethel Church and Bill Johnson in this regard?

I’m not familiar with their claims. I am however familiar with Jesus Christ’s proclamations, and His are the only ones that matter.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Bad poll. What about other variants with 'yes' that do not say 'at will'. Did the 12 apostles do miracles completely 'at will'?

Why didn't John raise James from the dead? Why did Peter pray before raising Tabitha?

When some of the apostles could not cast a demon out of a child Jesus said it was because of their unbelief. He did not blame their will.

What is your view of the faith required for healing someone?

Here's my view: the true believer is united with Christ. Therefore, Jesus' faith is their faith. If it is God's will for someone to be healed through the prayer of this believer, then the believer who is in union with Christ will know it, and can pray effectively (producing an effect) because it is God's will to heal the person through the believer.

If it's God's will that the person is going to be healed (or resurrected), the person will be healed (or resurrected).

Of course, in many charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith groups, they claim it is ALWAYS God's will to heal someone. Therefore, if the person isn't healed (or resurrected), they blame it on someone for their lack of faith, either the professed healer or the victim.

They fail to notice the plethora of reasons for suffering, including the fact that suffering conforms the person to the image of Christ. I sometimes wonder if they even read the Bible.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I’m not familiar with their claims. I am however familiar with Jesus Christ’s proclamations, and His are the only ones that matter.

Which proclamations?

Are you able to do all the miracles that Jesus did, including raising himself from the dead?

I haven't seen a single Charismatic who has raised himself from the dead..none yet...

I haven't seen a single Charismatic who has halted the aging process..including ones who claimed they would live until they were over 100 years old.