John 3:16-18 is not about God's universal love (there is no such thing).

[posthuman]

Umm, I am talking about people being sinners and that God have not chosen some or elected some for salvation as in the passage of Ephesians 1 and we have to remember the written epistle of Paul are to the saints (already saved) in Ephesus and that the means of salvation is ‘in Him’, ‘in Christ’, in whom’

Predestined here means purposed i.e. according to his purposed and that God’s intention (predestined) to the saved is to “be holy and without blame” or “that we should be to the praise of his glory” v.12 In other words, this has nothing to do with election to salvation but rather chosen to do service for him. Did God chosen the saved, predestined the saints or made accepted in the beloved? Did the saved(saints) adopted? Well for us know, yes indeed! Chosen for what? Predestined for what? Adopted for what? To do his purposed. Btw, adoption is taking up and treat as one’s owned. This imply a purpose of using in some way i.e. to Glorify God.

you said 'the method was predestined, not the people'
yes, He was slain before the foundation of the world. it's not 'plan B'
but Ephesians says the people were chosen and predestined. Romans says those people He foreknew, those people He predestined. Jesus says He knows His sheep by name, that they don't follow anyone else, but also know Him and hear Him. He says they - the people who belong to Him - were given to Him by the Father & He doesn't lose a single one of them. He says to those out to steal, kill and destroy that they cannot believe because they are not His sheep.

 

[posthuman]

you said 'the method was predestined, not the people'
yes, He was slain before the foundation of the world. it's not 'plan B'
but Ephesians says the people were chosen and predestined. Romans says those people He foreknew, those people He predestined. Jesus says He knows His sheep by name, that they don't follow anyone else, but also know Him and hear Him. He says they - the people who belong to Him - were given to Him by the Father & He doesn't lose a single one of them. He says to those out to steal, kill and destroy that they cannot believe because they are not His sheep.

i'm not playing 'us vs. them' here -- yes, we appear to have some kind of agency, and God is just to call us culpable. at the same time tho, the scripture unarguably presents Him as doing all His will, proclaiming the end from the beginning -- He, the Potter, and we, clay in His hands. none of us have any place to answer back to Him and none of us have any reason whatsoever we could possibly justify boasting in anything to do with ourselves. we received everything we have - even our very existence.
the will of living creatures within the purpose and good pleasure of the Creator is a fantastic mystery. who truly understands it?

 

[fredoheaven]

Umm, I am talking about people being sinners and that God have not chosen some or elected some for salvation as in the passage of Ephesians 1 and we have to remember the written epistle of Paul are to the saints (already saved) in Ephesus and that the means of salvation is ‘in Him’, ‘in Christ’, in whom’

Predestined here means purposed i.e. according to his purposed and that God’s intention (predestined) to the saved is to “be holy and without blame” or “that we should be to the praise of his glory” v.12 In other words, this has nothing to do with election to salvation but rather chosen to do service for him. Did God chosen the saved, predestined the saints or made accepted in the beloved? Did the saved(saints) adopted? Well for us know, yes indeed! Chosen for what? Predestined for what? Adopted for what? To do his purposed. Btw, adoption is taking up and treat as one’s owned. This imply a purpose of using in some way i.e. to Glorify God.

The distinguishing mark I used is ‘people’ not ‘us’. The ‘us’ things are those who ‘first trusted in Christ’, speaking of after they believe. The element is ‘how’ not that who should be saved. God predestined the means of salvation.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ …” Eph. 1:5

How do we become adopted into the family of God? “by Jesus Christ.” The verse does not say, “predestinated us unto the adoption of children. Period.” It says “he…predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ….” Jesus Christ was God’s predestinated plan for the redemption of man. Those who are “in Christ” are in the “elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.” According to 1 Peter 2:5, 6 Jesus Christ is the “elect.” If you are “in Christ,” you are in the “elect.” You do not get “in Christ” by being predestinated; you get “in Christ” by believing on him.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Could you quote for me the entire passage you are citing? Perhaps we could learn something from them?

Thanks

Romans 8:28-30

Whom He foreknew He did also predestinate.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Romans 8:28-30 Whom He foreknew He did also predestinate.

That thought should have been completed, because it REFUTES Calvinism.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What does it mean "to be conformed to the image of His Son"?
NLT -- to become like his Son
Weymouth -- to bear the likeness of His Son
Thayer's -- having the same form as another

Now we know that Christ has always been perfect and now He is glorified, glorious, and exalted. But no man can attain the unique position and perfection of Christ who is God. But the children of God (called His "brethren") can certainly resemble Him in their moral and spiritual perfection, and also glorification. And that will happen at the Resurrection/Rapture (1 John 3:1-3):

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So predestination relates to the future perfection of the saints, not the salvation of sinners. God predestines no one for salvation or damnation, since He invites all to be saved.

 

[posthuman]

God predestined the means of salvation.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ …” Eph. 1:5

it doesn't happen to say 'having predestined the adoption unto us' . . .

if i say "A is destined unto B" then both things are fated: individual A and event B.
but you're reading this as though A is completely inconsequential to B.

would you say, "I'm taking the cat to the vet!" -- then leave the cat, drive to the vet and hope a stray animal hops in the car along the way? no -- when you set out, the cat is the object of your outing, and the vet is the destination. did Christ lay down His life for no one in particular, if anyone at all? the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep !

Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”​

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”​

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ​

(John 10:22-31)
​

to the Jews who sought to kill Him, verse 27 -- "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep"

no belief ((method))
because
not His sheep ((individuals))

cause & effect. it does not say "you are not my sheep because you do not believe" -- something mankind would find easy to swallow. BEHOLD! it says something absolutely amazing instead! who can bear to hear it?

it's Dedication/Hanukkah! Merry Christmas!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

it doesn't happen to say 'having predestined the adoption unto us' . . .

if i say "A is destined unto B" then both things are fated: individual A and event B.
but you're reading this as though A is completely inconsequential to B.

would you say, "I'm taking the cat to the vet!" -- then leave the cat, drive to the vet and hope a stray animal hops in the car along the way? no -- when you set out, the cat is the object of your outing, and the vet is the destination. did Christ lay down His life for no one in particular, if anyone at all? the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep !

Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”​

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”​

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ​

(John 10:22-31)​

​

to the Jews who sought to kill Him, verse 27 -- "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep"

no belief ((method))
because
not His sheep ((individuals))

cause & effect. it does not say "you are not my sheep because you do not believe" -- something mankind would find easy to swallow. BEHOLD! it says something absolutely amazing instead! who can bear to hear it?

it's Dedication/Hanukkah! Merry Christmas!

Brother, I could read your posts all day long.

 

[posthuman]

God predestines no one for salvation or damnation, since He invites all to be saved.

why does He choose to reveal Himself to some and choose to hide Himself from others?

He said,
unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables;
that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
(Luke 8:10) ​

 

[Nehemiah6]

why does He choose to reveal Himself to some and choose to hide Himself from others?

This is COMPLETELY FALSE. God has give His only begotten Son to the whole world of humanity, and that is what Christmas and the Gospel is all about.

As to the Scripture you have quoted, it is a misapplication, since Christ began to speak in parables after the Jewish religious leaders resisted Him, and refused to acknowledge Him and His teachings. TheY were to be spiritually blinded for resisting the truth (a lesson for all who resist the truth on Christian forums).

MATTHEW 13
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[posthuman]

This is COMPLETELY FALSE.

what's completely false? that God chose to hide Himself from some? that He chose to reveal Himself to others?
Isaiah 6. Matthew 13, you quoted it yourself: whosoever hath not - some 'do not have!' whoever has, what they have was given! you never created yourself, gave yourself life or opened your own understanding!
2 Corinthians 4. John 6, John 10, John 12. Isaiah 65. Ecclesiastes 3:11. Matthew 16 "flesh and blood have not revealed this"

you're calling "completely false" exactly what the word of God you yourself copy-pastes explicitly says??
it's a bewildering fact, to be sure, but it's not "false" on account of it being unpalatable to our vanity.

He said,​

unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables;​

that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.​

(Luke 8:10) ​

Merry Christmas! if you are able to comprehend and receive the gospel, you have God to thank for that! not yourself!

 

[posthuman]

Christ began to speak in parables after the Jewish religious leaders resisted Him, and refused to acknowledge Him and His teachings.

they rejected Him as their King all the way back in 1 Samuel 8 -- even in the wilderness at Meribah.
in Matthew we have Him saying "you have heard it said . . but I say . . " in chapter 5 before we ever hear of Him speaking to a single Pharisee. in chapter 6, before we ever read of any Sadducee saying a single word to Him either in approval or disapproval, we hear Him calling them hypocrites.

Jesus didn't need to learn anything about their behavior. He knows all things, even the heart of every man before they are formed in the womb. He proved them, demonstrating what was in their hearts before every living creature on earth and in heaven. do you really imagine He came down to Sodom to see what was happening because He was ignorant and needed to find out firsthand? get yourself a higher view of God, bro. it will take you far

 

[posthuman]

you get “in Christ” by believing on him.

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him, and He said, ​

therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father!​

(John 6:64-65) ​

​

if you believe, then thank Him - thank the Father who gave you all you have
if you love others, pray the Father would grant them also to come to Him.

no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, ​

and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.​

(Luke 10:22) ​

​

pray the Son chooses to reveal Himself to them. there is no other way but through Him

 

[posthuman]

COMPLETELY FALSE

​

At that time Jesus declared,
"I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned,
and revealed them to little children!"​

(Matthew 11:25) ​

 

[fredoheaven]

The distinguishing mark I used is ‘people’ not ‘us’. The ‘us’ things are those who ‘first trusted in Christ’, speaking of after they believe. The element is ‘how’ not that who should be saved. God predestined the means of salvation.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ …” Eph. 1:5

How do we become adopted into the family of God? “by Jesus Christ.” The verse does not say, “predestinated us unto the adoption of children. Period.” It says “he…predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ….” Jesus Christ was God’s predestinated plan for the redemption of man. Those who are “in Christ” are in the “elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.” According to 1 Peter 2:5, 6 Jesus Christ is the “elect.” If you are “in Christ,” you are in the “elect.” You do not get “in Christ” by being predestinated; you get “in Christ” by believing on him.

This called ‘predestined’ has something to do with every saved individual with a purposed. In Romans 8:9-10, every saved individual is predestined “to conformed to the image of His Son’’ It is not about who will be saved.

In Philippians 3:20,21 we are told:

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body."

Conforming to Jesus image happens when we have that glorious body and this is why Ephesians 1 called it as a “spiritual blessing in heavenly places”, the thing we are looking forward.

 

[fredoheaven]

did Christ lay down His life for no one in particular, if anyone at all? the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep !

Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”​

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”​

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ​

(John 10:22-31)​

​

to the Jews who sought to kill Him, verse 27 -- "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep"

no belief ((method))
because
not His sheep ((individuals))

cause & effect. it does not say "you are not my sheep because you do not believe" -- something mankind would find easy to swallow. BEHOLD! it says something absolutely amazing instead! who can bear to hear it?

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” - John 11:26



At the end of chapter 10, Christ still reasons with the Jews. Notice Verses 37 and 38:

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (37) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe, that the Fathers is in me, and I in him.” (38) - John 10:37,38

If these Jews are supposed to be already excluded by the “doctrine” of election, then why is Christ still reasoning with them to try and get them to believe? Why should He waste the time?

 

[fredoheaven]

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him, and He said, ​

therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father!​

(John 6:64-65) ​

​

if you believe, then thank Him - thank the Father who gave you all you have
if you love others, pray the Father would grant them also to come to Him.

no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, ​

and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.​

(Luke 10:22) ​

​

pray the Son chooses to reveal Himself to them. there is no other way but through Him

Yep, Jesus knew beforehand and this speaks of foreknowledge and I agree with you such foreknowledge that God knows what is going to happen before it takes place. Merry Christmas!

 

[posthuman]

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” - John 11:26



At the end of chapter 10, Christ still reasons with the Jews. Notice Verses 37 and 38:

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (37) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe, that the Fathers is in me, and I in him.” (38) - John 10:37,38

If these Jews are supposed to be already excluded by the “doctrine” of election, then why is Christ still reasoning with them to try and get them to believe? Why should He waste the time?

instead of presuming that God "wastes His time" i presume He's calling someone. He's saving someone. that's what He does, and He doesn't just "try" -- He succeeds, because He is God, and there is no other before Him.

 

[posthuman]

Yep, Jesus knew beforehand and this speaks of foreknowledge and I agree with you such foreknowledge that God knows what is going to happen before it takes place. Merry Christmas!

do you think there was ever a time God did not know who is His sheep and who is not His sheep? at all times, He has known all things, before all things, before all time. before the world was ever founded, He knew this one would believe, and this one would not believe, but betray. and He created them, and it is good. His foreknowledge isn't His 'learning' -- it is His omniscience. there is no time He is ever ignorant of any thing; nothing is or has ever been hidden from Him, nor can be. by Him all things have their being.

 

[posthuman]

At the end of chapter 10, Christ still reasons with the Jews. Notice Verses 37 and 38:

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (37) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe, that the Fathers is in me, and I in him.” (38) - John 10:37,38

If these Jews are supposed to be already excluded by the “doctrine” of election, then why is Christ still reasoning with them to try and get them to believe?

IOW you say, if that is the case it is foolish that He preach?

it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe​

(1 Corinthians 1:21) ​

​

He doesn't waste

Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost!
(John 6:12)​

 

[John146]

do you think there was ever a time God did not know who is His sheep and who is not His sheep? at all times, He has known all things, before all things, before all time. before the world was ever founded, He knew this one would believe, and this one would not believe, but betray. and He created them, and it is good. His foreknowledge isn't His 'learning' -- it is His omniscience. there is no time He is ever ignorant of any thing; nothing is or has ever been hidden from Him, nor can be. by Him all things have their being.

Did not Jesus learn what it was like to be human? Had God ever experience thirst before? Had God ever experienced pain in the flesh? Had God ever been punched in the face? Hebrews says God learned.

And don’t bring up some fancy theological term to explain away the clear reading of the scripture. You may not, but I know others may try.