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Not By Works
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So here you are basically condemning OSAS believers and accusing them of living unholy lives. That judgment call is well above your pay grade and your true colors are becoming more and more obvious. 
I have heard your same argument above numerous times from unbelievers in false religions and cults who are quick to accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license to sin. The implication is that these OSAS believers will surely lose their salvation due to living in sin, yet on the other side of the coin, these unbelievers imply they will surely remain saved based on their "holier than thou" lifestyle (even they subscribe to works righteousness) which has always been a red flag for me. The false comfort of these people is in self righteousness.
I have heard your same argument above numerous times from unbelievers in false religions and cults who are quick to accuse believers in the OSAS camp of promoting a license to sin. The implication is that these OSAS believers will surely lose their salvation due to living in sin, yet on the other side of the coin, these unbelievers imply they will surely remain saved based on their "holier than thou" lifestyle (even they subscribe to works righteousness) which has always been a red flag for me. The false comfort of these people is in self righteousness.
It is they who are promiting a liscense to sin. As long as it is not all those so called GRAVE sins, they are ok.
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Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Thing of it is? There really is a "sacrifice for sin." Namely, the self "spiritual sacrifice/s", mentioned here:
1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Which "pays" the "debt" incurred here:
Matthew 5
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
The reason, or I should say "a" reason OSAS is so "dangerous", is that many many times they are "steered", when not "forced" to adopt this mindset:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
By "these" kinds of people within their own midst:
Jude
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
These "kinds and types" of people are what's called "willingly ignorant" several times in the N.T. God Himself referred to these "types" in the O.T. as "Jeshurun!" And defines this "moniker" here:
Deuteronomy 32
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! (note Matt. 7:21-23)
36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
This is why OSAS is so dangerous!:
Ezekiel 13
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Thing of it is? There really is a "sacrifice for sin." Namely, the self "spiritual sacrifice/s", mentioned here:
1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Which "pays" the "debt" incurred here:
Matthew 5
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
The reason, or I should say "a" reason OSAS is so "dangerous", is that many many times they are "steered", when not "forced" to adopt this mindset:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
By "these" kinds of people within their own midst:
Jude
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
These "kinds and types" of people are what's called "willingly ignorant" several times in the N.T. God Himself referred to these "types" in the O.T. as "Jeshurun!" And defines this "moniker" here:
Deuteronomy 32
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! (note Matt. 7:21-23)
36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
This is why OSAS is so dangerous!:
Ezekiel 13
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
You believe you can lose your salvation. I believe you can too.
But I CAN'T lose MINE! Because I KNOW the One who gave it, holds, and keeps it, and He KNOWS me! Jesus Christ. My Lord and Savior, who told me there is NOTHING conceivable that can separate me from Him. That NO ONE, not even ME can snatch me out of His Hand, that has SEALED me unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit.
So congratulations! YOU, are right!
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Why am I not allowed to use my God given right to examine fruit?
No one can live in sin and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. That is what the Bible says.
The evidence of salvation given in the Bible is that you are a changed person. Not perfect, but changed and changing. The new mindset of righteousness is what shows that you are born again and have the Spirit of God in you. A person who believes in once saved always saved can have that evidence. But too often you see that doctrine used to rationalize and justify having an unchanged life.
And yet I'm not allowed to make judgment calls?
My experience has shown me that any time you get the 'holier than thou' argument you're probably dealing with an unbeliever. You seem like a stand up guy, but you're sounding more and more like an unbeliever. The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is it will deceive a person into staying in their old lives and not being prepared to meet Jesus when He returns. The unchanged life is a warning sign. People should not ignore it and think they are saved because they believe once saved always saved is true. Works salvationists trust in their works to earn salvation. Once saved always saved salvationists often trust that their works don't matter. Both have a rude wake up call awaiting them when Christ returns.
Real believing that justifies has works attached. You can call that 'holier than thou' if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that if you don't have the works that accompany salvation you may well not be saved. That's why we should not give false comfort to people in the church by telling them that once you are saved you are always saved no matter what, just as the works salvationist should not give false comfort that your works earn you salvation. Come to the middle between these two erroneous doctrines where the truth about this matter is found. You can tell that's where the truth is because not many people have found it.
No one can live in sin and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. That is what the Bible says.
The evidence of salvation given in the Bible is that you are a changed person. Not perfect, but changed and changing. The new mindset of righteousness is what shows that you are born again and have the Spirit of God in you. A person who believes in once saved always saved can have that evidence. But too often you see that doctrine used to rationalize and justify having an unchanged life.
And yet I'm not allowed to make judgment calls?
My experience has shown me that any time you get the 'holier than thou' argument you're probably dealing with an unbeliever. You seem like a stand up guy, but you're sounding more and more like an unbeliever. The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is it will deceive a person into staying in their old lives and not being prepared to meet Jesus when He returns. The unchanged life is a warning sign. People should not ignore it and think they are saved because they believe once saved always saved is true. Works salvationists trust in their works to earn salvation. Once saved always saved salvationists often trust that their works don't matter. Both have a rude wake up call awaiting them when Christ returns.
Real believing that justifies has works attached. You can call that 'holier than thou' if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that if you don't have the works that accompany salvation you may well not be saved. That's why we should not give false comfort to people in the church by telling them that once you are saved you are always saved no matter what, just as the works salvationist should not give false comfort that your works earn you salvation. Come to the middle between these two erroneous doctrines where the truth about this matter is found. You can tell that's where the truth is because not many people have found it.
Men like C.H Spurgeon, Francis Schaeffer, William Carey, George Mueller, William Wilberforce, Isaac Watts, August Toplady, (wrote Rock of Ages) John Newton (wrote Amazing Grace), John Bunyan, and others held to Eternal Security. These men did not stay in their old life. They were vessels used by God.
There are NOSAS people that were also vessels used in the hands of God. John and Charles Wesley, A.W Tozer, Watchman Nee, David Wilkerson (wrote "Cross and the Switchblade"), etc.
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Please stop with your false accusations. I get sick of you people and your arrogance and thinking it is ok to lie about others with no consequences.
Bearing false witness is a lie. and is breaking the ten commands, If you preach obedience, yet continually break the law. Your a hypocrite. Sorry for venting. but it is the truth
If you are not willing to understand what we believe, then stop. You make yourself look foolish when you false accuse people who you do not understand.
We do not ignore the living part. We endorse and preach it through discipleship.
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The bible writes of Saul:
6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you.
9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God [c]gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day.
11 And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
Yet we are to believe that God does this for an UNBELIEVER? Gives them a new heart and makes them a new man.......
Then the change
17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are [b]consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord?
22 So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of [d]witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”
And the Conclusion
12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul.
6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you.
9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God [c]gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day.
11 And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
Yet we are to believe that God does this for an UNBELIEVER? Gives them a new heart and makes them a new man.......
Then the change
17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are [b]consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord?
22 So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of [d]witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”
And the Conclusion
12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul.
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If one looks at the note on this verse, or in the greek. The word (take away) is not the correct translation
The correct translation is LIFT UP.
it is a common known term in those who take care of these vinyards. When branches tough the ground, they die and do not produce fruit. So what they do is LIFT UP the branch, CUT OFF THE DEAD PARTS of the vine, so that the part that remains alive will not die and begin to produce fruit again.
It is not lose of salvation. It is cutting off our bad parts. so that we can grow and start to produce fruit.
The correct translation is LIFT UP.
it is a common known term in those who take care of these vinyards. When branches tough the ground, they die and do not produce fruit. So what they do is LIFT UP the branch, CUT OFF THE DEAD PARTS of the vine, so that the part that remains alive will not die and begin to produce fruit again.
It is not lose of salvation. It is cutting off our bad parts. so that we can grow and start to produce fruit.
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