Prophesying Forbidden

[CS1]

I believe the gifts are for today. It seems you have misunderstood what I said.

If God's people are more concerned with the gifts rather than the giver of them, then they are adulterous.

I disagree. the perverted adulterous is not in context to those seeking the gifts. That is in context to those seeking a sign.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are to be sacked by those who already believe. A sign one is seeking is because they DO NOT believe. those who seek the gifts are doing what was instructed to do in 1cor 12 to 14 not a a sign. you are speaking of two different things

gifts and the context of one seeking asign to Believe who Jesus said HE is.

 

[notuptome]

Well why are they together then??😐
And what makes you think you're so right?
These chapters seem pretty straight forward.

That's the point. They are together so that those who rightly divide the word will understand that the three gifts mentioned in 1 or 1c3 ended while they were active in 1 Cor 14 because they were in the apostolic church era. The remaining gifts are always present in the church and believers life . Only three apostolic gifts ended according to 1 Cor 13. Context is straight forward.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

I did not see any evidence in what you posted for donkeys being specifically related to unbelief--that references to them should be seen as a symbol of unbelief. Sure, they are beasts of burden that were unclean for Jews to eat. That doesn't not associate them with unbelief.

You should also consider how your penchant for allegorical interpretation is totally inconsistent with your cessationist position. Some of these allegorical interpretations are so strained that the only reason someone would believe it is if they think the interpreter(s) are moved by the Spirit to know something not actually stated in the text of scripture. That's extraBiblical revelation, and you should consider that such an approarch to interpretation is actually potentially more dangerous to sound doctrine than someone getting a word of knowledge or prophecy about another person's sin or ministry calling.

The bible in parables uses the term clean to represent that which is holy set aside to represent the redeemed .Like a lamb it represents the redeeming power of God as those born again .And uses the unclean like a donkey represent natural man, non redeemed in ceremonial laws as a shadow of the Son on of God our suffering savior.

That thou shalt set apart unto the Lord all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the Lord's. And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem. And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the Lord brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage: Exodus 13:12-14

The gospel hid in a parable encouraging the new creature to continue to walk after the unseen eternal things of God. Called faith

Ceremonial laws that worked in the believers were used to preach the gospel of our Redeemer Christ before hand. You could say it was the spiritual food that the disciples at first knew not of. The food of faith the unseen.

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.1 Peter 1:11-12

 

[Magenta]

I am glad I missed all that in the church

 

[garee]

I did not see any evidence in what you posted for donkeys being specifically related to unbelief--that references to them should be seen as a symbol of unbelief. Sure, they are beasts of burden that were unclean for Jews to eat. That doesn't not associate them with unbelief.

You should also consider how your penchant for allegorical interpretation is totally inconsistent with your cessationist position. Some of these allegorical interpretations are so strained that the only reason someone would believe it is if they think the interpreter(s) are moved by the Spirit to know something not actually stated in the text of scripture. That's extraBiblical revelation, and you should consider that such an approarch to interpretation is actually potentially more dangerous to sound doctrine than someone getting a word of knowledge or prophecy about another person's sin or ministry calling.

I would offer it is not so much that the interpretation of God is strained but rather hidden in parables. . . to teach us how to walk by faith the unseen eternal.

My cessationist position does not mean that parables as prophecy have ceases to offer the gospel through their understanding. Only that God is not adding to His book of prophecy . The last book is still Revelation

Words that desire to add knowledge to sola scriptura come with a strong delusion needed to continue to believe in another source of faith other that as it is written. The father of lies is not bound from bringing signs as lying wonders . Its an open opportunity that does desire to widen its authority "as it is written" contained in 66 books

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 King James Version (KJV And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Dino246]

The bible in parables uses the term clean to represent that which is holy set aside to represent the redeemed .

No, it doesn't. The word, "clean" does not appear in any of the parables.

Like a lamb it represents the redeeming power of God as those born again .And uses the unclean like a donkey represent natural man, non redeemed in ceremonial laws as a shadow of the Son on of God our suffering savior.

"Donkey" doesn't appear in any of the parables either.

That thou shalt set apart unto the Lord all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the Lord's. And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem. And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the Lord brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage: Exodus 13:12-14

That isn't a parable.

 

[garee]

No, it doesn't. The word, "clean" does not appear in any of the parables.


"Donkey" doesn't appear in any of the parables either.


That isn't a parable.

I would think if as you say parables are not prophecy just as tongues are not we then will have our differences. Parables as the signified tongue of God like the time period when there were Kings in Israel. Parables were used to hide the gospel from those who refused to hear (sola scriptura)

God has set up a sign to help identify and perhaps commune with those who have that manner of spirit called falling backward to indicate judgment according to the letter of the law. The foundation of tongues as a law or doctrine of God. We must look to the law that reveals men falling backward. Another doctrine of God used in parables that give us the good news as a living hope. Because a person does not search out another level it does not mean they have no hope but a different kind or manner. It does not change the grace of God. Just another kind of understanding. Remember the faithless Jews turned the manner of inspiration upside down taking away the understanding of God. Parables as prophecy I believe can help keep the integrity of the gospel of grace..

Parables I believe the kind of food the disciples knew not of at first the meat of the word moved by the will of God to plant the gospel born again seed. its the clean food represented by a lamb as that which does not come out as draught but works in us to both will and do the good pleasure of God. It provides what is called the better things that accompany salvation. That God who does work in us promises he will remember all the good works we worked yoked with Emanuel

Clean hands ceremonially represent those redeemed. bread represents the word of God the daily will.

Matthew 15 King James Version (KJV)
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Peter was not given the unseen understanding pertaining to ceremonial laws as shadows hoping the kingdom of God came by the temporal things seen walking by sight .


And again Jesus spoke another parable in a hope they would understand what it means to walk by faith the unseen eternal .

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Clean represent the donkeys that have been redeemed by the lamb of God .Not a source of redeeming. Just old farmers that live in the city. . . planting the incorruptible seed. . . that does not come out as draught.

 

[Dino246]

I would think if as you say parables are not prophecy just as tongues are not we then will have our differences. Parables as the signified tongue of God like the time period when there were Kings in Israel. Parables were used to hide the gospel from those who refused to hear (sola scriptura)

God has set up a sign to help identify and perhaps commune with those who have that manner of spirit called falling backward to indicate judgment according to the letter of the law. The foundation of tongues as a law or doctrine of God. We must look to the law that reveals men falling backward. Another doctrine of God used in parables that give us the good news as a living hope. Because a person does not search out another level it does not mean they have no hope but a different kind or manner. It does not change the grace of God. Just another kind of understanding. Remember the faithless Jews turned the manner of inspiration upside down taking away the understanding of God. Parables as prophecy I believe can help keep the integrity of the gospel of grace..

Parables I believe the kind of food the disciples knew not of at first the meat of the word moved by the will of God to plant the gospel born again seed. its the clean food represented by a lamb as that which does not come out as draught but works in us to both will and do the good pleasure of God. It provides what is called the better things that accompany salvation. That God who does work in us promises he will remember all the good works we worked yoked with Emanuel

Clean hands ceremonially represent those redeemed. bread represents the word of God the daily will.

Matthew 15 King James Version (KJV)
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Peter was not given the unseen understanding pertaining to ceremonial laws as shadows hoping the kingdom of God came by the temporal things seen walking by sight .


And again Jesus spoke another parable in a hope they would understand what it means to walk by faith the unseen eternal .

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Clean represent the donkeys that have been redeemed by the lamb of God .Not a source of redeeming. Just old farmers that live in the city. . . planting the incorruptible seed. . . that does not come out as draught.

Well, if nothing else, your posts are entertaining.

 

[presidente]

Words that desire to add knowledge to sola scriptura come with a strong delusion needed to continue to believe in another source of faith other that as it is written.

Why don't you apply this reasoning to some of your strange allegorical interpretations?

 

[presidente]

The bible in parables uses the term clean to represent that which is holy set aside to represent the redeemed .Like a lamb it represents the redeeming power of God as those born again .And uses the unclean like a donkey represent natural man, non redeemed in ceremonial laws as a shadow of the Son on of God our suffering savior.

Earlier, you had the donkey representing unbelief. Where did you get that from? Did Jesus ride unbelief into Jerusalem? That makes no sense. Was Balaam's donkey in unbelief? He saw the angel and avoided him. Where is the evidence that donkey was unbelieving or represented unbelief? Do you redeem unbelief with a lamb?

You complain a lot about adding to the word, but it is irrational to believe some of these allegorical interpretations without believing in some kind of extrabiblical revelation, since they contain ideas not directly taught in scripture. The only reason to believe in them is if one believes God has revealed these things extrabiblically.

Using those types of interpretations to argue for cessationism is irrational and self-contradictory.

Jesus warned of the situation where 'ye teach for doctrines the commandments of men.' Man-made interpretations are damaging-- such saying that 'that which is perfect' is the completed canon, when Paul already wrote, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It can also be damaging to assert that if someone prophesies, he is adding to the book of Revelation.

 

[Magenta]

… Was Balaam's donkey in unbelief? He saw the angel and avoided him. ...

Balaam's donkey was a "she"

 

[presidente]

Balaam's donkey was a "she"

Oops.

 

[Magenta]

Oops.

Not all translations identify the gender of Balaam's donkey

 

[garee]

Earlier, you had the donkey representing unbelief. Where did you get that from? Did Jesus ride unbelief into Jerusalem? That makes no sense. Was Balaam's donkey in unbelief? He saw the angel and avoided him. Where is the evidence that donkey was unbelieving or represented unbelief? Do you redeem unbelief with a lamb?

You complain a lot about adding to the word, but it is irrational to believe some of these allegorical interpretations without believing in some kind of extrabiblical revelation, since they contain ideas not directly taught in scripture. The only reason to believe in them is if one believes God has revealed these things extrabiblically.

Using those types of interpretations to argue for cessationism is irrational and self-contradictory.

Jesus warned of the situation where 'ye teach for doctrines the commandments of men.' Man-made interpretations are damaging-- such saying that 'that which is perfect' is the completed canon, when Paul already wrote, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It can also be damaging to assert that if someone prophesies, he is adding to the book of Revelation.

Spiritual gift not seen. Does not mean God is still adding to the book of prophecy. We have the whole. The last chapter is still Revelation as a interpretation the signified tongue of God.. it is sealed with a warning with seven seals.

If I used them in the way you assume I would agree.

Yes unclean animal are used to represent unconverted mankind as food not seen that which does not come out as draught. . Clean animal are used to represent redeemed the purified by the hand or will of God. .

It not the donkey that is the unbeliever but are used a metaphor in parables. And no it is God who redeems signified by a lamb .God is not a creation. . he is not a man as us. . He uses the temporal thing seen to give us his hidden eternal understanding in parables. It depends on us to use the tool for rightly dividing the parables He simply offers them I believe by faith.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Adding to the word would be to add to the whole book of prophecy the Bible. We are not to add or substract from sola scriptura the one reforming authority in any generation. as it is written.

As far as did Jesus ride unbelief into Jerusalem? unbelief is represented by that which in the eyes see a corrupted creation the wrath of God being revealed to the whole world the end is coming. Jesus as the Son of man wrapped in corrupted flesh he inherited from his mother was typified as sinful in order to demonstrate one time what the letter of the law could not. . . revealed as the law of faith making the law of God perfect or complete. . . The Son of man Jesus the first born of the brethren clothed in the temporal seen refused to be call called good master as infallible interpreter. Nut when accused of being good he gave glory to the unseen holy place of faith. And said God alone as eternal Spirit is good.

Riding into Jerusalem on a donkey was a picture of it is finished. No faith after what the eyes see, A good example is shown in Luke 9. When Jesus repeatedly hid the gospel understanding in a parable again to increase their faith they had little faith. (not of there own self.) He must increase we must decrease,

The last of the three parables he set his eyes towards Jerusalem but moved the messenger toward the gentiles to help them distinguish the us form them which are from without. They because they di not understand the parable of faith .wanted to destroy that which the eyes see. as the pagan foundation of religion .Out of sight out of mind. Jesus rebuked them and said to them: "You know not what manner of spirit we are of" as natural unconverted un redeemed mankind man . They repented

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what "manner of spirit" ye are of.Luke 9: 51-55

 

[calibob]

2 Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. KJV 1611

 

[presidente]

As far as did Jesus ride unbelief into Jerusalem? unbelief is represented by that which in the eyes see a corrupted creation the wrath of God being revealed to the whole world the end is coming. Jesus as the Son of man wrapped in corrupted flesh he inherited from his mother was typified as sinful in order to demonstrate one time what the letter of the law could not. . . revealed as the law of faith making the law of God perfect or complete. . . The Son of man Jesus the first born of the brethren clothed in the temporal seen refused to be call called good master as infallible interpreter. Nut when accused of being good he gave glory to the unseen holy place of faith. And said God alone as eternal Spirit is good.

Riding into Jerusalem on a donkey was a picture of it is finished. No faith after what the eyes see, A good example is shown in Luke 9. When Jesus repeatedly hid the gospel understanding in a parable again to increase their faith they had little faith. (not of there own self.) He must increase we must decrease,

The last of the three parables he set his eyes towards Jerusalem but moved the messenger toward the gentiles to help them distinguish the us form them which are from without. They because they di not understand the parable of faith .wanted to destroy that which the eyes see. as the pagan foundation of religion .Out of sight out of mind. Jesus rebuked them and said to them: "You know not what manner of spirit we are of" as natural unconverted un redeemed mankind man . They repented

That did not answer my question. Can you show us any examples in the Bible where donkeys have anything to unbelief? Even if you interpret a passage allegorically, is there any passage you can 'spin' with your allegory where a donkey is associated with unbelief.

Not paragraphs of religious phrases run together, an actual example.

 

[presidente]

I would offer the gift of interpretation of tongues is hearing the new tongue, the gospel .

You should really stop making stuff up. If you read I Corinthians 14 about interpreting tongues and try to read that interpretation into it, it's going to be a nonsense interpretation.

And there is no reason to believe that because the actual text of scripture does not support your theory.

The only reason someone would believe you are right is if they thought you got some kind of revelation beyond what the Bible teaches, which is something you claim not to believe in.

 

[presidente]

2 Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. KJV 1611

When my kids heard that, they wanted to memorize and quote that verse, amidst a lot of laughter.

 

[Jackson123]

I used to be active on Christianforums, but they put up a new set of rules a while back. I did not agree and so I was inactive, maybe because I did not want to read a long page of rules at the time.

I thought about signing up again, and I came across this in the rules. I found this objectionable, "Personal Prophecy (prophetic utterance) will be considered off-topic to all site forums."

I Corinthians 14 says '...covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in tongues.' Prophesying is emphasized here over speaking in tongues, so it stands to reason that if we are to covet it, we are not to forbid it. Earlier of church meetings, he commanded, passing on what he emphatically stated were the commandments of the Lord, "Let the prophets speak... and 'For ye may all prophesy....' Paul commanded the Thessalonians 'Despise not prophesyings...'

My understanding is that prophesying generally involves speaking as moved/carried-along by the Holy Ghost as Peter described Old Testament prophecy. It could be other forms of communication as well like singing, even the use of musical instruments. Typically Old Testament prophets prophesied in the first person and sometimes preceded their quotes from God with 'Thus saith the Lord'. But Peter called David a prophet and not all of his prophetic Psalms follow this format. John even said Caiaphas prophesied when he said that one Man should die for the people. Caiaphas probably did not even know that he was prophesying.

If it is possible to prophesy-- to speak under the moving of the Spirit-- without even knowing it, why would one agree never to give prophetic utterance? The rule said personal prophesy, but many posts on the forum there are personal advice to an OP. So if the Spirit moves an individual to type out a piece of advice, it is forbidden to do so, but advice from one's own mind is allowed?

And what about those in the Reformed movement who define prophesying to be faithful preaching and teaching of the scriptures. If a pastor who posts faithfully uses the scriptures to instruct an individual with a bit of personal information, couldn't they consider that 'prophesying.' I see a distinction between prophesying and teaching in scripture, but if one sees this as prophesying, why would he agree to such a rule?

I wanted to send someone from ChristianForums a little note explaining that I would not agree to their terms for the reasons stated above, but I could not reach anyone without agreeing to the terms. So I thought I would vent a bit here since the topic might make a good topic for discussion.

Do denominations, pastors, or churches have the authority to override the 'commandments of the Lord' in I Corinthians 14 that permit prophesying? Should a Christian discussion board attempt to forbid individuals from speaking as moved by the Holy Spirit?

Do you have the gift of prophecy?

 

[calibob]

I used to be active on Christianforums, but they put up a new set of rules a while back. I did not agree and so I was inactive, maybe because I did not want to read a long page of rules at the time.

I thought about signing up again, and I came across this in the rules. I found this objectionable, "Personal Prophecy (prophetic utterance) will be considered off-topic to all site forums."

I Corinthians 14 says '...covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in tongues.' Prophesying is emphasized here over speaking in tongues, so it stands to reason that if we are to covet it, we are not to forbid it. Earlier of church meetings, he commanded, passing on what he emphatically stated were the commandments of the Lord, "Let the prophets speak... and 'For ye may all prophesy....' Paul commanded the Thessalonians 'Despise not prophesyings...'

My understanding is that prophesying generally involves speaking as moved/carried-along by the Holy Ghost as Peter described Old Testament prophecy. It could be other forms of communication as well like singing, even the use of musical instruments. Typically Old Testament prophets prophesied in the first person and sometimes preceded their quotes from God with 'Thus saith the Lord'. But Peter called David a prophet and not all of his prophetic Psalms follow this format. John even said Caiaphas prophesied when he said that one Man should die for the people. Caiaphas probably did not even know that he was prophesying.

If it is possible to prophesy-- to speak under the moving of the Spirit-- without even knowing it, why would one agree never to give prophetic utterance? The rule said personal prophesy, but many posts on the forum there are personal advice to an OP. So if the Spirit moves an individual to type out a piece of advice, it is forbidden to do so, but advice from one's own mind is allowed?

And what about those in the Reformed movement who define prophesying to be faithful preaching and teaching of the scriptures. If a pastor who posts faithfully uses the scriptures to instruct an individual with a bit of personal information, couldn't they consider that 'prophesying.' I see a distinction between prophesying and teaching in scripture, but if one sees this as prophesying, why would he agree to such a rule?

I wanted to send someone from ChristianForums a little note explaining that I would not agree to their terms for the reasons stated above, but I could not reach anyone without agreeing to the terms. So I thought I would vent a bit here since the topic might make a good topic for discussion.

Do denominations, pastors, or churches have the authority to override the 'commandments of the Lord' in I Corinthians 14 that permit prophesying? Should a Christian discussion board attempt to forbid individuals from speaking as moved by the Holy Spirit?

I think it's too controversial for the staff to try and regulate and don't forget there is prophecy and prophesy which are two different things. If someone claims to have a prophecy that turns out to be false or wrong it would seriously undermine the credibility of this site. I doubt if robo or once fallen would actually stone them so I think it's better left in private or PM's than in the threads.