Not By Works

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Judges1318 said:
We don't know either way.
The point is, the Galatians, and Corinthians, and the Hebrews all show us that 1 John 2:19 does not mean what once saved always saved says it means. They left.
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Not if they heeded Paul's warnings. :)

Please read this post carefully.

Let's just agree to disagree and both of us keep studying the Word with open minds. I'm probably going to get in trouble with Dcontroversal and Eleventh hour for saying this, but I respect and like you because the way you disagree agreeably. I used to be NOSAS like you years ago. I was a dyed in the wool Arminian. I have to admit that your position is more radical than mine was. But I kept an open mind, and listened to other perspectives, and weighed things, etc. And I always keep an open mind, and am ready to be corrected if I can be convinced from scripture, so you can rest assured that if I am otherwise minded to the truth in any matter, God will reveal even this to me.

If you don't mind, I'd like to recommend a book to you. It's called " Grace abounding to the Chief of Sinners" by John Bunyan. I'll tell you up front, that he was a puritan/Calvinist, but when I read his conversion story, it is so similar to my own. His story is so amazing. He also wrote a book called "The Pilgrim's Progress". I recommend it to everyone I know.

Some of the things he believed pre-conversion were a little off IMO(he was a church goer at first, but not saved), so some of the stuff he says in the beginning of the book are going to be strange, but it was because of the time, and what the church taught at that time. But once he gets converted, he goes through a great struggle, until he understands God's Grace and how that God loved him with an everlasting love. This is exactly how my story goes, and there were so many things that made me go, wow, that's what I went through.

Anyways, I don't want you to read it (Grace Abounding) merely because of that, I just think it is a good book with good insights. Pilgrims Progress by the same author, (you probably have heard of it) is my second favorite book, after the Bible.

Here is a link to the book.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/654/654-h/654-h.htm
 
Chris1975 said:
Your responses are fluff.
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John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


Bye!
 
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I have been scarred so deep by life and cold despair
And brittle bones were broken far beyond repair
I have leveled lies so deep, the truth may never find
And inside my faithless heart, I stole things never mine

If mercy falls upon the broken and the poor
Dear Father, I will see you, there on distant shores

I have toiled for countless years and ever felt the cost
And I've been burned by this world's cold
Like leaves beneath the frost
On my knees I've crawled to You, bleeding myself dry
But the price of life is more, than I could ever buy

If mercy falls upon the broken and the poor
Dear Father, I will see you, there on distant shores

And off of the blocks, I was headstrong and proud
At the front of the line for the card-carrying, highbrowed
With both eyes fastened tight, yet unscarred from the fight
Running at full tilt, my sword pulled from its hilt
It's funny how these things can slip away, our frail deeds
The last will wave good-bye
It's funny how the hope will bleed away
The citadels we build and fortify. Good-Bye

If mercy falls upon the broken and the poor
Dear Father, I will see you, there on distant shores

On distant shores- Five iron Frenzy
 
Chris1975 said:
I don't know, but I am worried about the salvation of these people mentioned below. I think that they are works salvationists.....all I see is Works, works, works,,,,,

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 [f]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the [g]passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the [h]reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures [i]in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who [j]did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [k]were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
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More idiocy from a salvation loser and one that peddles a dime store salvation...complete lack of understanding!!
 
Heb 6:4-6 KJV Lost salvation
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 
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Looks like eternal life in Hell for those who disregard scriptures like the one above.
 
Once Saved Always Saved to Hell.

The Good Shepherd only seeks after his own sheep.
 
CherieR said:
The part about the Lord's discipline and correction and possibly even the giving over of the flesh to Satan. I don't understand that giving over the flesh to Satan part and how that could be helpful.
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Is this physical death, or death of the control of the flesh over a person? Or both?
Don't know for sure, but one thing is sure:
The passage says this is to be done so the sinning person may be saved when Christ returns.
Because they won't be saved when Jesus comes back unless that is done.
For in the very next chapter he says fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God.
God disciplines us so that we might share in his holiness, for without peace with others, and holiness no one will see the Lord.
 
PennEd said:
sure.

1 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/1-corinth-5-brother-lets-get-into-it.153638/
 
eternally-gratefull said:
perfected forever means just that.positionally sanctified forever
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Amen! In Hebrews 10:10, we read - .."sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" and in verse 14, we read - "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." The moment that we have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, we are sanctified/set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..
 
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Judges1318 said:
A different definition for 'sanctified' gets conveniently used in vs. 29 by once saved always saved so that the verse doesn't conflict with it's doctrine.
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A different definition? So did Paul use a different definition of the word 'sanctified' in 1 Corinthians 7:14? Paul here uses it to specifically refer to unbelievers who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. *1 Corinthians 7:14 - For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

In Hebrews 10:39, the writer of Hebrews sets up a CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not of THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT of Hebrews 10, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" and was associated and identified with being an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces their identification with these Hebrew believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" they had received (Hebrews 10:26) and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which gives evidence that their identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers "on the surface" had merely appeared to be real, but after closer examination turned out to be superficial and thus the person was not a genuine believer.
 
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