Not By Works
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I hear what you are saying. Not all who are opposed to OSAS teach that works somehow maintain our salvation, but I have heard numerous people in various false religions and cults state that our works do help maintain our salvation. Here is a statement below from someone I was once in a discussion with who attends the church of Christ (Campbellism):
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
There are certain people in the NOSAS camp who would disagree that works maintain our salvation and instead believe it's possible down the road to change your mind and stop believing and basically end up turning your back on Christ and remain in that condition until death, resulting in a loss of salvation. I don't believe that a genuine born again Christian would do that, but there are those who do believe that. After hearing numerous Roman Catholics quote the church fathers (as if they are practically infallible) in order to support their errant doctrines, I do not put a lot of stock in what they taught. I've heard Roman Catholics on numerous occasions quote the church fathers to support infant baptism and transubstantiation, which I strongly disagree with. The church fathers were not infallible and we have copies and copies and copies (not the originals) of what they wrote. God promised to preserve His Word, but not the writings of fallible men.
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
There are certain people in the NOSAS camp who would disagree that works maintain our salvation and instead believe it's possible down the road to change your mind and stop believing and basically end up turning your back on Christ and remain in that condition until death, resulting in a loss of salvation. I don't believe that a genuine born again Christian would do that, but there are those who do believe that. After hearing numerous Roman Catholics quote the church fathers (as if they are practically infallible) in order to support their errant doctrines, I do not put a lot of stock in what they taught. I've heard Roman Catholics on numerous occasions quote the church fathers to support infant baptism and transubstantiation, which I strongly disagree with. The church fathers were not infallible and we have copies and copies and copies (not the originals) of what they wrote. God promised to preserve His Word, but not the writings of fallible men.
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And by the way, you're opening up quite the can of worms here.
It seems the whole Protestant movement was an angry backlash at everything 'Catholic'......but sadly, to the harm of the church they formed. It seemed they resisted things simply because the Catholics believed it. And formed doctrine accordingly.
It seems the whole Protestant movement was an angry backlash at everything 'Catholic'......but sadly, to the harm of the church they formed. It seemed they resisted things simply because the Catholics believed it. And formed doctrine accordingly.
My main beef with the Catholic church is they teach salvation by faith + works and have added unbiblical practices to Christianity. Catholics believe in the Trinity and I do too. I believe there is one God in essence/nature who exists in three persons; Father, Son & Holy Spirit. So I don't automatically disagree with everything Catholics teach just to be indifferent.
Hypothetically, yes. If they rejected Paul’s words and trusted Law Keeping, they would be severed from Christ and fall from Grace. Galatians 5:4.
But being warned in such a manner, do you think that a true believer would have disregarded Paul’s warning and gotten circumcised anyways?
If anyone thinks that eternal security means that the Galatians who were saved would stay saved if they went back to the Law despite Paul’s warnings, they have Galatians 5;4 to deal with
VERY IMPORTANT...But I don’t think anyone is saying that.
But being warned in such a manner, do you think that a true believer would have disregarded Paul’s warning and gotten circumcised anyways?
If anyone thinks that eternal security means that the Galatians who were saved would stay saved if they went back to the Law despite Paul’s warnings, they have Galatians 5;4 to deal with
VERY IMPORTANT...But I don’t think anyone is saying that.
Btw, I listen to a lot of things I don’t fully agree with. I regularly engage in talking to people of many different persuasions, and it helps when I talk to them
Besides, I never disagree with a person or agree with them without hearing them out
And trusting Jesus is not some kind of work that you have to produce. If it was, I would not have lasted a year.
Besides, I never disagree with a person or agree with them without hearing them out
And trusting Jesus is not some kind of work that you have to produce. If it was, I would not have lasted a year.
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I was using 'everything' as hyperbole. 
And maybe you aren't disagreeing with the Catholics just to be different, but the reformers were to a degree IMO. Sometimes it seems they were on a mission to discredit the Catholic church in any way they could. And don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Catholic church. It's just that maybe the Protestants knee jerk doctrines weren't as motivated by truth as we think.
And maybe you aren't disagreeing with the Catholics just to be different, but the reformers were to a degree IMO. Sometimes it seems they were on a mission to discredit the Catholic church in any way they could. And don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Catholic church. It's just that maybe the Protestants knee jerk doctrines weren't as motivated by truth as we think.
Sounds to me you have a slightly distorted view of what Salvation IS, compared to Sanctification, .
Maybe I can Clarify those Two importance subjects, and I will keep this explanation as short as possible.
Salvation has to do with the Human Spirit, and only happens after one Willingly, out of LOVE for HIM, SURRENDER to Jesus Christ,
and happens in an INSTANCE, when you First Believe. Giving HIM complete Control over your life.
John 3:6 (HCSB)
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and
whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Sanctification happens after you have BEEN SAVED, and is the LIFELONG PROCESS whereby we LEARN to walk like JESUS, in this Mortal, Finite body. When we learn to imitate HIM, especially HIS LOVE for Others, as we Walk day by day, becoming more and more Like HIM. We will not be PERFECT, until the Resurrection, when HE GIVES US THE GLORIFIED BODY. Are we in sinless perfection now? Not At ALL. We strive for that Goal, becoming more and more like HIM. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION or JUSTIFICATION.
1 John 2:6 (HCSB)
6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.
Yes, I know other people want to add to those Verses, or Subtract from them. They are Confused by it, and they totally complicate the difference between Salvation and Sanctification. Watch the Red X's appear, now.
Here is the point I was trying to make; If one is trusting Jesus to keep them, and not trusting in their own endurance in believing, they are not trusting in their own works but His! So that would not be a works based gospel.
To trust in your own faith would be treacherous. To trust in His faithfulness is a sure foundation
For we are weak, but He is strong
To trust in your own faith would be treacherous. To trust in His faithfulness is a sure foundation
For we are weak, but He is strong
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Actually I don't that's true.
Yes he agrees we are saved by grace through faith.
Yet he falls foul of the ministry of Jesus that keeps us.
If that were the case then we could not reject the faith in Jesus that we came to.
Yet he comes across as as saying.
We can walk away from saving faith.
It's us keeping it and not Jesus.
Therefore the ministry of Jesus does not keep us.
It's in our hands and not the hands of Jesus.
Yes he agrees we are saved by grace through faith.
Yet he falls foul of the ministry of Jesus that keeps us.
If that were the case then we could not reject the faith in Jesus that we came to.
Yet he comes across as as saying.
We can walk away from saving faith.
It's us keeping it and not Jesus.
Therefore the ministry of Jesus does not keep us.
It's in our hands and not the hands of Jesus.
I believe they have the freedom to do that. Therefore they can. And it depends on how deep the roots of the word go into your soil that determines what kind of fight there's going to be to uproot the word from your heart. I would go so far to say that it is only the 4th kind of soil that could ever even begin to make any boast whatsoever of never being able to have the word uprooted from their heart. Because that's the only soil that Jesus speaks directly to the matter of the word persevering in the soil and not dying in the soil.
I think you would be very surprised who believes that. But you have to catch them in that belief when they aren't being careful to deny it. Because if you confront them about it they suddenly resort to Calvin's 'they were never saved to begin with' belief. But later you will find them defending the belief that even the fallen believer who no longer believes is still saved.
I think you would be very surprised who believes that. But you have to catch them in that belief when they aren't being careful to deny it. Because if you confront them about it they suddenly resort to Calvin's 'they were never saved to begin with' belief. But later you will find them defending the belief that even the fallen believer who no longer believes is still saved.