What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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One day you will realize just how much error is in that statement - and, just how much assumption is attached to that statement - when you come to realize that the Dark Ages saints who were tortured to death were tribulation saints.
They are [a major part of] the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9 - and, together with those "that should be killed as they were" (Revelation 6:11) - are ALL tribulation saints.
Think about that for a while...
They are [a major part of] the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9 - and, together with those "that should be killed as they were" (Revelation 6:11) - are ALL tribulation saints.
Think about that for a while...
1 THESSALONIANS 5 [9] For God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The Rapturist claim we are raptured off to heaven because we are not appointed to wrath.
1 THESSALONIANS 4 [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
We will be with Jesus from here on in
REVELATION 19 [14] And THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Here we find Jesus returning to earth. We are with Him and He will be executing Gods wrath upon this earth. We are on this earth during the wrath. Again i say, the Rapturist claim we will be raptured to heaven to avoid the wrath of God.
The Rapturist claim we are raptured off to heaven because we are not appointed to wrath.
1 THESSALONIANS 4 [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
We will be with Jesus from here on in
REVELATION 19 [14] And THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Here we find Jesus returning to earth. We are with Him and He will be executing Gods wrath upon this earth. We are on this earth during the wrath. Again i say, the Rapturist claim we will be raptured to heaven to avoid the wrath of God.
None of this is evidence for pre-trib. I am not asking for a ride on the pre-trib highway of circular reasoning. I am asking for the on-ramp. Where do you come up with pre-trib....from scripture... in the first place.
Why shouldn't I take a common-sense approach that if Jesus wrote about His parousia (coming) and Paul wrote about it, that they are talking about the same thing?
Look at these passages. I f you look at Matthew 24:30-31 in context, Christ's parousia happens after the great tribulation. If you read I Thessalonians 4:16-17 in context, it happens at Christ's parousia. Paul refers to the coming of our Lord Jesus CHrist and our gathering unto him in II Thess. 2:1, which pre-tribbers typically take to refer to the rapture. But Matthew 24:30-31 sets the gathering at the parousia.
If you assume pretrib and make this refer to two different comings of Christ, two different gatherings of the church and/or elect, and eisegete that into the text, then you can read it that way. Notice that other scripture uses 'elect' in reference to the church. The problem is this is that it is not reason to assume two second comings of Christ or two 'gatherings' of the elect.
The end of Revelation tells of the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven after the 1000 years. Christ went to prepare a place for us. Trying to make John 14:1-3 out as proof of pre-trib isn't work when there are other scenarios in scripture that fulfill it.
This is the same type of reasoning that gets us doctrines like purgatory, limbo, and the idea that you have to confess your sins to a priest. They take some kind of Biblical issue that seems to be a problem and spin a whole doctrine out of it.
In the past example we see in history, God preserved His people when He poured out judgments in Egypt--which is similar in some ways to some things we see in Revelation. There is also the issue that Paul, whose immediate audience was first century (or centuries) Christians who are already asleep in Christ, that they were not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Is Paul talking about living on earth during a time when God pours out wrath on it, or is He talking about their not being objects of God's wrath, but rather of mercy? Then you are also assuming a certain chronology to Revelation as opposed to some of these things being pictures of events that happen at the same time.
This is one of the problems that comes with entrenching yourself in a theological position and then using interpretation of apocalyptic literature as your primary approach to eschatology? The arguments you have for pre-trib are not weighty (or conclusive) enough to outweigh direct teaching of scripture on the matter, or to posit two parousia's or two gatherings of two different elects in the eschatalogical passages.
Why shouldn't I take a common-sense approach that if Jesus wrote about His parousia (coming) and Paul wrote about it, that they are talking about the same thing?
Look at these passages. I f you look at Matthew 24:30-31 in context, Christ's parousia happens after the great tribulation. If you read I Thessalonians 4:16-17 in context, it happens at Christ's parousia. Paul refers to the coming of our Lord Jesus CHrist and our gathering unto him in II Thess. 2:1, which pre-tribbers typically take to refer to the rapture. But Matthew 24:30-31 sets the gathering at the parousia.
If you assume pretrib and make this refer to two different comings of Christ, two different gatherings of the church and/or elect, and eisegete that into the text, then you can read it that way. Notice that other scripture uses 'elect' in reference to the church. The problem is this is that it is not reason to assume two second comings of Christ or two 'gatherings' of the elect.
The end of Revelation tells of the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven after the 1000 years. Christ went to prepare a place for us. Trying to make John 14:1-3 out as proof of pre-trib isn't work when there are other scenarios in scripture that fulfill it.
This is the same type of reasoning that gets us doctrines like purgatory, limbo, and the idea that you have to confess your sins to a priest. They take some kind of Biblical issue that seems to be a problem and spin a whole doctrine out of it.
In the past example we see in history, God preserved His people when He poured out judgments in Egypt--which is similar in some ways to some things we see in Revelation. There is also the issue that Paul, whose immediate audience was first century (or centuries) Christians who are already asleep in Christ, that they were not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Is Paul talking about living on earth during a time when God pours out wrath on it, or is He talking about their not being objects of God's wrath, but rather of mercy? Then you are also assuming a certain chronology to Revelation as opposed to some of these things being pictures of events that happen at the same time.
This is one of the problems that comes with entrenching yourself in a theological position and then using interpretation of apocalyptic literature as your primary approach to eschatology? The arguments you have for pre-trib are not weighty (or conclusive) enough to outweigh direct teaching of scripture on the matter, or to posit two parousia's or two gatherings of two different elects in the eschatalogical passages.
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I believe you are misunderstanding the passage. "When He comes to be glorified in His saints" corresponds to what is said in Matthew 24:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory.
1. This is in contrast to the first coming of Christ in humility and humiliation.
2. When He comes in "great glory" He is also "glorified in His saints" since they are metaphorically called "the clouds of Heaven". There are no clouds of water vapor in God's Heaven, since those clouds belong to the earth's atmosphere. But the multitude of saints all dressed in white and radiating light and surrounding Christ appear as clouds to those on earth. And surrounding them are the clouds of holy angels.
3. That passage speaks of His "mighty angels", "flaming fire", and "vengeance". This has nothing to do with the Rapture, but with the battle of Armageddon, which is AFTER th Great Tribulation. Therefore this passage supports the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. How could the saints accompany Christ at His Second Coming from Heaven, unless they were ALREADY in Heaven?
1. This is in contrast to the first coming of Christ in humility and humiliation.
2. When He comes in "great glory" He is also "glorified in His saints" since they are metaphorically called "the clouds of Heaven". There are no clouds of water vapor in God's Heaven, since those clouds belong to the earth's atmosphere. But the multitude of saints all dressed in white and radiating light and surrounding Christ appear as clouds to those on earth. And surrounding them are the clouds of holy angels.
3. That passage speaks of His "mighty angels", "flaming fire", and "vengeance". This has nothing to do with the Rapture, but with the battle of Armageddon, which is AFTER th Great Tribulation. Therefore this passage supports the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. How could the saints accompany Christ at His Second Coming from Heaven, unless they were ALREADY in Heaven?
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You are correct, we will be with Jesus from that point forward.
In the scripture that you posted above, the dead in Christ rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies After that the believers who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified (I Cor.15:51-53) and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church will be present to meet the Lord in the air. Then you must include John 14:1-3 where the Lord says that He went to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us to take us to the Father's house, so that were He is we may be also. It is tantamount to bring in all of the related scriptures regarding this issue in order to come to a right conclusion.
Wall, the scripture that you posted above takes place after God's wrath, after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, not before. Revelation 19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth after God's wrath has taken place. It is at this time when the beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire alive (Rev.19:20). And it is the same time when Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss.
The scripture above takes place after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed. During the time of God's wrath, the church will remain in heaven to be judged at the Bema seat of Christ (2 Cor.5:10) and to attend the wedding of the Lamb. When the armies which follow Christ out of heaven on white horses, takes place after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath. When we follow Christ out of heaven, the beast and the kings of the earth will be gathered at Armageddon where all will be killed by that double-edged sword. This is the Lord coming to establish His millennial kingdom.
Your error is that you just have the timing wrong. Jesus, the church and the angels, do not descend to the earth until after God's wrath is completed and this to establish His millennial kingdom.
In the scripture that you posted above, the dead in Christ rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies After that the believers who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified (I Cor.15:51-53) and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church will be present to meet the Lord in the air. Then you must include John 14:1-3 where the Lord says that He went to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us to take us to the Father's house, so that were He is we may be also. It is tantamount to bring in all of the related scriptures regarding this issue in order to come to a right conclusion.
Wall, the scripture that you posted above takes place after God's wrath, after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, not before. Revelation 19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth after God's wrath has taken place. It is at this time when the beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire alive (Rev.19:20). And it is the same time when Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss.
The scripture above takes place after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed. During the time of God's wrath, the church will remain in heaven to be judged at the Bema seat of Christ (2 Cor.5:10) and to attend the wedding of the Lamb. When the armies which follow Christ out of heaven on white horses, takes place after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath. When we follow Christ out of heaven, the beast and the kings of the earth will be gathered at Armageddon where all will be killed by that double-edged sword. This is the Lord coming to establish His millennial kingdom.
Your error is that you just have the timing wrong. Jesus, the church and the angels, do not descend to the earth until after God's wrath is completed and this to establish His millennial kingdom.