What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
I think for us it is an exciting verse.
We are in a heavenly/spirit attitude,and things like "watch,wait,be ready",etc are of great meaning and joyous to those looking for The groom to take his bride to heaven.
Rev 4 is like that. We see John taken like we will be. It could be a picture of the rapture.
We see things that are given to us. We watch and wait. So any alluding to being taken is such a blessing and excitement.
Dread is all the postribs have to look forward to. Heaviness and trial.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
I think for us it is an exciting verse.
We are in a heavenly/spirit attitude,and things like "watch,wait,be ready",etc are of great meaning and joyous to those looking for The groom to take his bride to heaven.
Rev 4 is like that. We see John taken like we will be. It could be a picture of the rapture.
We see things that are given to us. We watch and wait. So any alluding to being taken is such a blessing and excitement.
Dread is all the postribs have to look forward to. Heaviness and trial.
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It says of the ac "...and power was given to him to overcome the saints"
So,yes he is empowered to kill believers.
It says "every man ,woman,and child takes the mark...."(worships the beast)
I believe the "innumerable number" that come out of the gt are those 5 foolish virgins left behind and their mass murder,martyrdom, are the end of the church age. And marks the beginning of Jacob's / israels touble
So,yes he is empowered to kill believers.
It says "every man ,woman,and child takes the mark...."(worships the beast)
I believe the "innumerable number" that come out of the gt are those 5 foolish virgins left behind and their mass murder,martyrdom, are the end of the church age. And marks the beginning of Jacob's / israels touble
Yes,and several dynamics are in play.
Harvest...."firtsfruits 144k"
Fruit....."ripe fruit" taken by Jesus.
Rottten fruit..."overripe fruit' taken and destroyed by angel/s
See that? that is not the 4 part grain harvest, It is the other harvest of grapes.
Many facets of "harvest"
We own this dynamic (4 parts to harvest in Leviticus) as well as the bride/groom component.
The book of ruth apexes on 3 dynamics
Gentile bride
Harvest
Kinsman redeemer.
We also own this awesome ingredient.
I am moved by the multifaceted unfolding, of end times.
So riveting. Deep calls out to deep as mysteries unfold,that are revealed to those with spiritual eyes.
We are so blessed and privelidged to be shown such mysteries.
........beyond words how awesome it is!!!!!!!
Harvest...."firtsfruits 144k"
Fruit....."ripe fruit" taken by Jesus.
Rottten fruit..."overripe fruit' taken and destroyed by angel/s
See that? that is not the 4 part grain harvest, It is the other harvest of grapes.
Many facets of "harvest"
We own this dynamic (4 parts to harvest in Leviticus) as well as the bride/groom component.
The book of ruth apexes on 3 dynamics
Gentile bride
Harvest
Kinsman redeemer.
We also own this awesome ingredient.
I am moved by the multifaceted unfolding, of end times.
So riveting. Deep calls out to deep as mysteries unfold,that are revealed to those with spiritual eyes.
We are so blessed and privelidged to be shown such mysteries.
........beyond words how awesome it is!!!!!!!
The resurrection of the saints (the *first resurrection*) resembles the Hebrew harvest, in that it is in three phases: (1) the firstfruits, (2) the main harvest, and (3) the gleanings. Christ is called the firstfruits but so are the 144K (as being raptured). The main harvest is the Resurrection/Rapture followed later on by the resurrection of the Tribulation saints.
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one coming theory? lolz. Acts 1:9 was not a theory.
look we can prove all kinds of crazy things from the book of revelation. its not in chronlogical order and its apocalyptic very symbolic. i can prove the earth is destroyed many times from book of revelation its easy to do.
better to take doctrine from clear verses and import that to revelation than to change clear verses to fit book of revelation.
look we can prove all kinds of crazy things from the book of revelation. its not in chronlogical order and its apocalyptic very symbolic. i can prove the earth is destroyed many times from book of revelation its easy to do.
better to take doctrine from clear verses and import that to revelation than to change clear verses to fit book of revelation.
Beware of [some] people who use that term (I'm just saying "be aware" 
), coz there are many people out there who, well, let me just put this brief article by Paul Martin Henebury on the topic:
"Apocalyptic Fixation" -
https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/
(and there are further related articles linked at the bottom of his page ^ )
[and yes, some parts of Revelation are something like interludes (and backtracking to fill in the details/more info), but the "Seals, Trumpets, Vials" ARE in chronological order]
Don't be duped.
), coz there are many people out there who, well, let me just put this brief article by Paul Martin Henebury on the topic:"Apocalyptic Fixation" -
https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/
(and there are further related articles linked at the bottom of his page ^ )
[and yes, some parts of Revelation are something like interludes (and backtracking to fill in the details/more info), but the "Seals, Trumpets, Vials" ARE in chronological order]
Don't be duped.
FIRST-FRUITS GOVERNING BODY AND THE CHOICES OF THE LEFT-BEHIND
( https://iamcallingyounow.blogspot.com/2019/05/first-fruits-governing-body-and-choices.html )
By Julie Whedbee
Saturday, May 25, 2019
All those who are made in My image have been given choices, purposes have been ordained, and desires of My heart have been placed within. It is up to each one to choose to serve Me and obey, to choose to manifest My life’s example here on earth, or to refuse the invitation to a glorified, eternal life with one’s Creator.
We have placed each one here for a specific role and sanctified those My Father has given Me for His will.
Those who have been chosen are those who answer the call on their lives and come to call on Me as their Messiah.
Within this vast group of those who come to know Me in this lifetime, there are specified groups, the outcome of their destinies determined by the degree of their surrendered lives.
Those who have fully surrendered and given over their lives and their entire being, heart, mind, soul and will have been sealed first, and will be taken by Me first as a first-fruits harvest, preceding the much larger group who have allowed the desires and distractions of this world to hold their interest, focus, and priority.
This first very small group comprises My jewels who will translate and enter into glory ahead of the rest. This group will be rewarded accordingly, as they have learned the obedience and discipline in their lives through following My example and through the trials, suffering and refining they have endured. I tell you this now, this group’s reward comes quickly now!
The time is upon you! This group is expecting Me now and has made her garments clean in holiness, repentance and humility.
Within this first group, those who have completed the tasks they were given will stay with Me during the great tribulation on earth, and not be required any further service here.
There is another part of this first-fruits group whose lives have been the training ground for their final assignments, and I will translate them as a testimony of My Glory which will be granted as a gift to the much larger group, as the world plunges into darkness under the beast system. They will minister for a time, performing great exploits in My name. They will glorify Me as they present themselves to those in the valley of decision, testifying of My love for all My creation. Then, I will bring them home.
Those in this larger group, often referred to as those left behind, will still be afforded many graces, although they were not ready for My coming earlier. They, too, are a sealed group, having accepted Me as Messiah, and will move forward under greater trials- by fire, persecution and suffering, in order that they receive the reward that is available to them. Greater sacrifice by the laying down of one’s life sooner will yield a greater honor in My Kingdom.
I have gifts and crowns to give all those who choose Me in this life, but it is up to you the level of glory I reveal to you and the rewards you receive. Those who have chosen Me sooner are those who are granted to be My governing body and will rule and reign with me in My Kingdom, as mature sons and daughters who inherit the authority, power, and ruler-ship that My Father has given Me.
The larger group who also receive My sealing will then be presented with choices of service to Me. Within this group will be many who will be given the opportunity to lay down their lives for Me, but for them by this time, it will mean their physical death by martyrdom. These will receive a great reward for this ultimate sacrifice, as those who have gone before them have received. They, too, will enter immortality with Me.
Those who remain faithful through the darkness under the beast’s control, but who are not required to lay down their lives, will enter immortality, be translated (glorified/raptured) when I come for this group; and although they will not be comprised of My governing body, will remain to live in peace and harmony during the 1000 year millennial reign on earth.
The level of intimacy We share now in this life, determines your position in My Kingdom. Once understood, this revelation will help many who are having difficulty choosing the direction and choices that have and will be presented to them.
Just as I have said, in My Father’s house are many mansions. All that is spoken in My Word has many layers of meaning and revelation.
Again, to those who are intimate with Me, I reveal the secret mysteries. I am not interested in lip service to Me, just as I do not honor or reward vain sacrifices and traditions of men.
You are about to suddenly see that without intimacy, your religious practices are dead in spirit. Religion, Charities and Organizations dedicated to Good Works, anything led by man and man’s desires and who does not carry My Spirit within is dead. I cannot emphasize this enough.
Come out of the Babylonian system; come out of the world as those who I have chosen are not of this world, just as I was not of this world.
Hear what My Spirit is speaking to you.
Many are called, few are chosen.
Every single choice you make each day determines your eternal destiny. Does this sink in with you at all? You are walking a path that results in a determined outcome that cannot be reversed after you leave this earth.
Why would you choose to accept anything less than the full outpouring of My blessings for you because you chose very poorly in the here and now?
I am Limitless, and all that is of Me is offered to you. What greater gift could there be? I implore you. Take these, My words to heart. Meditate deeply on everything I am revealing to you.
I have so much more to share with you than what you have perceived.
Come to Me and pray for revelation and wisdom, as I give freely to all who ask and all who seek Me with all their heart.
Choices for many of you reading this must be made this instant, because judgment is set and is now here, and many will enter this day into eternal separation or eternal glory with Me.
If these words have not pricked your heart; if you are not convicted of all that has been spoken; if you go from here back to your comfortably numb state of being; if you still have the thirst for entertainment and the ways of this world, continuing to be indoctrinated and programmed, then there is nothing more your Creator and Father can say to you, is there?
I love you beyond measure, but I force no one to return that love.
What a man sows, he will reap. The reaping is begun. The Great Harvester comes with all His Heavenly hosts mustered for battle.
MY SWORD OF TRUTH CUTS ASUNDER..
YAHUSHUA
( https://iamcallingyounow.blogspot.com/2019/05/first-fruits-governing-body-and-choices.html )
By Julie Whedbee
Saturday, May 25, 2019
All those who are made in My image have been given choices, purposes have been ordained, and desires of My heart have been placed within. It is up to each one to choose to serve Me and obey, to choose to manifest My life’s example here on earth, or to refuse the invitation to a glorified, eternal life with one’s Creator.
We have placed each one here for a specific role and sanctified those My Father has given Me for His will.
Those who have been chosen are those who answer the call on their lives and come to call on Me as their Messiah.
Within this vast group of those who come to know Me in this lifetime, there are specified groups, the outcome of their destinies determined by the degree of their surrendered lives.
Those who have fully surrendered and given over their lives and their entire being, heart, mind, soul and will have been sealed first, and will be taken by Me first as a first-fruits harvest, preceding the much larger group who have allowed the desires and distractions of this world to hold their interest, focus, and priority.
This first very small group comprises My jewels who will translate and enter into glory ahead of the rest. This group will be rewarded accordingly, as they have learned the obedience and discipline in their lives through following My example and through the trials, suffering and refining they have endured. I tell you this now, this group’s reward comes quickly now!
The time is upon you! This group is expecting Me now and has made her garments clean in holiness, repentance and humility.
Within this first group, those who have completed the tasks they were given will stay with Me during the great tribulation on earth, and not be required any further service here.
There is another part of this first-fruits group whose lives have been the training ground for their final assignments, and I will translate them as a testimony of My Glory which will be granted as a gift to the much larger group, as the world plunges into darkness under the beast system. They will minister for a time, performing great exploits in My name. They will glorify Me as they present themselves to those in the valley of decision, testifying of My love for all My creation. Then, I will bring them home.
Those in this larger group, often referred to as those left behind, will still be afforded many graces, although they were not ready for My coming earlier. They, too, are a sealed group, having accepted Me as Messiah, and will move forward under greater trials- by fire, persecution and suffering, in order that they receive the reward that is available to them. Greater sacrifice by the laying down of one’s life sooner will yield a greater honor in My Kingdom.
I have gifts and crowns to give all those who choose Me in this life, but it is up to you the level of glory I reveal to you and the rewards you receive. Those who have chosen Me sooner are those who are granted to be My governing body and will rule and reign with me in My Kingdom, as mature sons and daughters who inherit the authority, power, and ruler-ship that My Father has given Me.
The larger group who also receive My sealing will then be presented with choices of service to Me. Within this group will be many who will be given the opportunity to lay down their lives for Me, but for them by this time, it will mean their physical death by martyrdom. These will receive a great reward for this ultimate sacrifice, as those who have gone before them have received. They, too, will enter immortality with Me.
Those who remain faithful through the darkness under the beast’s control, but who are not required to lay down their lives, will enter immortality, be translated (glorified/raptured) when I come for this group; and although they will not be comprised of My governing body, will remain to live in peace and harmony during the 1000 year millennial reign on earth.
The level of intimacy We share now in this life, determines your position in My Kingdom. Once understood, this revelation will help many who are having difficulty choosing the direction and choices that have and will be presented to them.
Just as I have said, in My Father’s house are many mansions. All that is spoken in My Word has many layers of meaning and revelation.
Again, to those who are intimate with Me, I reveal the secret mysteries. I am not interested in lip service to Me, just as I do not honor or reward vain sacrifices and traditions of men.
You are about to suddenly see that without intimacy, your religious practices are dead in spirit. Religion, Charities and Organizations dedicated to Good Works, anything led by man and man’s desires and who does not carry My Spirit within is dead. I cannot emphasize this enough.
Come out of the Babylonian system; come out of the world as those who I have chosen are not of this world, just as I was not of this world.
Hear what My Spirit is speaking to you.
Many are called, few are chosen.
Every single choice you make each day determines your eternal destiny. Does this sink in with you at all? You are walking a path that results in a determined outcome that cannot be reversed after you leave this earth.
Why would you choose to accept anything less than the full outpouring of My blessings for you because you chose very poorly in the here and now?
I am Limitless, and all that is of Me is offered to you. What greater gift could there be? I implore you. Take these, My words to heart. Meditate deeply on everything I am revealing to you.
I have so much more to share with you than what you have perceived.
Come to Me and pray for revelation and wisdom, as I give freely to all who ask and all who seek Me with all their heart.
Choices for many of you reading this must be made this instant, because judgment is set and is now here, and many will enter this day into eternal separation or eternal glory with Me.
If these words have not pricked your heart; if you are not convicted of all that has been spoken; if you go from here back to your comfortably numb state of being; if you still have the thirst for entertainment and the ways of this world, continuing to be indoctrinated and programmed, then there is nothing more your Creator and Father can say to you, is there?
I love you beyond measure, but I force no one to return that love.
What a man sows, he will reap. The reaping is begun. The Great Harvester comes with all His Heavenly hosts mustered for battle.
MY SWORD OF TRUTH CUTS ASUNDER..
YAHUSHUA
Beware of [some] people who use that term (I'm just saying "be aware" ), coz there are many people out there who, well, let me just put this brief article by Paul Martin Henebury on the topic:
"Apocalyptic Fixation" -
https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/
(and there are further related articles linked at the bottom of his page ^ )
[and yes, some parts of Revelation are something like interludes (and backtracking to fill in the details/more info), but the "Seals, Trumpets, Vials" ARE in chronological order]
Don't be duped.
), coz there are many people out there who, well, let me just put this brief article by Paul Martin Henebury on the topic:"Apocalyptic Fixation" -
https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/
(and there are further related articles linked at the bottom of his page ^ )
[and yes, some parts of Revelation are something like interludes (and backtracking to fill in the details/more info), but the "Seals, Trumpets, Vials" ARE in chronological order]
Don't be duped.
and how many times does babylon fall? twice?
first time:
Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
second time:
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
clearly revelation 14 and 18 is the same thing. babylon falls in both. just like revelation 11:15 and revelation 19 both have second coming.
i challenge you to prove somehow they are chronological , seems like impossible task unless Jesus returns like 7 times and there are many babylons fallin
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I disagree that His actual Second Coming is in 11:15 (when "the seventh angel sounded" [7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial]); instead, it is a declaration. [<--and in my own study of the "chronology," I see this as taking place "on a specific calendar date significant to Israel"... but even without that, there still remains SOME DURATION OF TIME following the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe" point in time]
The problem enters when people mistakenly believe "the 7th [judgment] Trumpet" is synonymous with "the Last Trumpet," when they are not.
The Vials alone unfold over some period of time, before the Rev19 "END" (of the trib yrs). [7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial... then follows 6 more Vials yet]
The problem enters when people mistakenly believe "the 7th [judgment] Trumpet" is synonymous with "the Last Trumpet," when they are not.
The Vials alone unfold over some period of time, before the Rev19 "END" (of the trib yrs). [7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial... then follows 6 more Vials yet]
Good day Melach,
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments do in fact take place in the chronological order that they appear in Revelation.
First of all, each set is numbered 1 thru 7, which shows their order. Then you have the following:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, John sees the seven angels with the bowl judgments, which are identified as being "the last seven plagues" with which completes God's wrath. Since these seven bowl judgments are last, then it would infer that other plagues of wrath would have had to have come before them, meaning the seals and the trumpets. And we know that the seventh bowl completes God's wrath, because after the 7th bowl is poured out, a voice from the throne says, "It is done," i.e. God's wrath is completed.
Though some of the plagues of wrath sound similar, they are not the same event, but a completely different plague of wrath. For example, there are a couple of different events which take place with the sun, moon and stars, but are all apart of a different event of wrath.
The two scriptures above are indeed referring to the destruction of Babylon. What throws everyone of is not understanding that the word "Pipto" translated "fallen" is in the Greek "indicative, aorist, active" tense, which means "a simple occurrence of an action without reference to its completeness, duration, or repetition.
What this means is that in Rev.14:8, the angel is announcing the determined fate of Babylon. It IS NOT an announcement that it has already taken place. In our English language, the word "fallen" would infer past tense, i.e. something that has already taken place. However here in the Greek aorist, it is stating Babylon's ultimate fate.
In Rev.18:2, John is seeing a vision of the results of Babylon's falling, her destruction.
Anther example of the indicative, aorist, active verb is found in the opening of the 6th seal where it is stated "the great day of their wrath has come and can endure it."
The words "has come" are in the indicative, aorist, active. This causes many people to err in identifying when God's wrath begins. They look at that announcement as meaning that God's wrath ensues after the announcement, excluding the previous seals as belonging to God's wrath. Because of this they put the church through the first six seals. However, the announcement is speaking of God's wrath in its entirety, which includes what will have already taken place at the time of the announcement, as well as what is going to take place after the announcement, which would be the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments. In short, it is announcement of God's wrath as a whole.
I hope that this sheds some light on the subject.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments do in fact take place in the chronological order that they appear in Revelation.
First of all, each set is numbered 1 thru 7, which shows their order. Then you have the following:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
In the scripture above, John sees the seven angels with the bowl judgments, which are identified as being "the last seven plagues" with which completes God's wrath. Since these seven bowl judgments are last, then it would infer that other plagues of wrath would have had to have come before them, meaning the seals and the trumpets. And we know that the seventh bowl completes God's wrath, because after the 7th bowl is poured out, a voice from the throne says, "It is done," i.e. God's wrath is completed.
Though some of the plagues of wrath sound similar, they are not the same event, but a completely different plague of wrath. For example, there are a couple of different events which take place with the sun, moon and stars, but are all apart of a different event of wrath.
The two scriptures above are indeed referring to the destruction of Babylon. What throws everyone of is not understanding that the word "Pipto" translated "fallen" is in the Greek "indicative, aorist, active" tense, which means "a simple occurrence of an action without reference to its completeness, duration, or repetition.
What this means is that in Rev.14:8, the angel is announcing the determined fate of Babylon. It IS NOT an announcement that it has already taken place. In our English language, the word "fallen" would infer past tense, i.e. something that has already taken place. However here in the Greek aorist, it is stating Babylon's ultimate fate.
In Rev.18:2, John is seeing a vision of the results of Babylon's falling, her destruction.
Anther example of the indicative, aorist, active verb is found in the opening of the 6th seal where it is stated "the great day of their wrath has come and can endure it."
The words "has come" are in the indicative, aorist, active. This causes many people to err in identifying when God's wrath begins. They look at that announcement as meaning that God's wrath ensues after the announcement, excluding the previous seals as belonging to God's wrath. Because of this they put the church through the first six seals. However, the announcement is speaking of God's wrath in its entirety, which includes what will have already taken place at the time of the announcement, as well as what is going to take place after the announcement, which would be the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments. In short, it is announcement of God's wrath as a whole.
I hope that this sheds some light on the subject.
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If you want to make a point, make it.
You seem to be assuming Revelation is written chronologically and that the harvest refers to the rapture?
Again, let us interpret Revelation through the lens of easier-to-interpret scriptures. Someone can say this in Revelation represents that, while another disagrees.
You seem to be assuming Revelation is written chronologically and that the harvest refers to the rapture?
Again, let us interpret Revelation through the lens of easier-to-interpret scriptures. Someone can say this in Revelation represents that, while another disagrees.
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Your sentence is not logical. It is an improper use of 'therefore.' What you have said before does not determine what the scriptures mean. Jesus taught about the gathering in the context of the coming of the Son of Man, after the tribulation (Matthew 24). Paul wrote about the gathering and the coming of the Lord, and the rapture/resurrection even happening at the coming of the Lord. It is not reasonable to propose these are different events. You need to present some evidence for multiple second comings of Christ. Stating something is not proof.
I am aware that you assert such things. Assertion and evidence is not the same thing.
I am aware that you assert such things. Assertion and evidence is not the same thing.
I Thess.4:16-17 = The gathering of the entire church, dead and living, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air
Matt.24:31 = Angels gathering the great tribulation saints who make it alive through the entire tribulation period
Your error is that you and others pigeonhole the word "gathering" so that it is referring to the same event, which it is not.
It is the same with the "last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52 vs the "loud trumpet" of Matt.24:31. They are two different types of trumpets which take place at different times. The former is to call up the church, where the latter is a signal for the angels to go and gather the living saints throughout the entire world.
Matt.24:31 = Angels gathering the great tribulation saints who make it alive through the entire tribulation period
Your error is that you and others pigeonhole the word "gathering" so that it is referring to the same event, which it is not.
It is the same with the "last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52 vs the "loud trumpet" of Matt.24:31. They are two different types of trumpets which take place at different times. The former is to call up the church, where the latter is a signal for the angels to go and gather the living saints throughout the entire world.
My "therefore" refers back to the studies I've previously posted (both in this thread and in other threads); for example, I'd said:
"note also: Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1895] says, "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"... so...
"-- apo stasis = "apo=away" & "stasis=a standing" [^ same word there ^] = "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "DEPARTURE" (context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant)…"
[and in past threads had provided...]
"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"
"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.
E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.
The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.
With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him."
The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [I would say, "must precede the [7-yr] tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it)]. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pretribulation rather than a preseventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."
--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60
[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 (no spaces)]
[end quoting]
[cont'd in next post]
"note also: Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1895] says, "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"... so...
"-- apo stasis = "apo=away" & "stasis=a standing" [^ same word there ^] = "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "DEPARTURE" (context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant)…"
[and in past threads had provided...]
"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"
"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.
E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.
The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.
With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him."
The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [I would say, "must precede the [7-yr] tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it)]. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pretribulation rather than a preseventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."
--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60
[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 (no spaces)]
[end quoting]
[cont'd in next post]
[cont'd]
Another writer I'd quoted in past posts:
[ quoting ] "In the first century, we see apostasia used by the historian,
Josephus, in a political sense (Jos. Vit., 43) to
signify a rebellion against civil authority. However,
the term was also used during this time to describe a
fever departing from an ill person, and a boat departing
from a dock." --JB Hixson [ end quote ]
[a spatial / geographical "departure" is a LEGITIMATE use of this word]
Another writer I'd quoted in past posts:
[ quoting ] "In the first century, we see apostasia used by the historian,
Josephus, in a political sense (Jos. Vit., 43) to
signify a rebellion against civil authority. However,
the term was also used during this time to describe a
fever departing from an ill person, and a boat departing
from a dock." --JB Hixson [ end quote ]
[a spatial / geographical "departure" is a LEGITIMATE use of this word]
^ And speaking of the use of the word to mean "a rebellion," there's also what I'd put in other past posts (relatedly):
[scroll down to the Greek word "G4714", below]
Here's another thought on the Subject of "PARABLES" that I fairly agree with, and that aligns with what I see in the Word:
Mark 4:10-12 -
The Purpose of Jesus' Parables
(Matthew 13:10-17)
10 And when He was alone, those around Him with the Twelve began asking Him about the parable.
11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, everything is done in parables, 12 so that,
‘Seeing, they might see and not perceive;
and hearing, they might hear and not understand;
lest ever they should turn,
and they should be forgiven.’(a)”
[...]
33 And with many such parables He kept speaking the word to them, as they were able to hear, 34 and He would not speak to them without parables; but privately He would explain all things to His own disciples.
_______
[quoting Thomas Ice- on the subject of "parables"]
"Five Parabolic Illustrations
"[re: Matt24] These parables or illustrations of Jesus are as follows: First, the fig tree illustration (24:32- 35); second, the days of Noah illustration (24:36- 39); third, a comparison of two men and women illustration (24:40- 41); fourth, the faithful house holder illustration (24:42- 44); and fifth, the wise servant illustration (24:45- 51).
"These five parables are important lessons that relate to Israel. In fact, I would go so far as to say that all the parables in the New Testament relate directly to Israel. Often they relate to Israel's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah and speak of consequences that will flow from such an act. Christ told His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17 that He would speak to "this people" (Israel) in order to blind them to the truth because of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. However, believers could come to understand the meaning of His parables because we are receptive of the revelation offered by Christ. Therefore, they all relate to Israel in some way, shape, or form and usually tell us something about God's plan for the future.
"The parables within the Olivet Discourse, when they speak of a coming, all relate to the second coming and not the rapture of the church. This is true because the entire Olivet Discourse was given to Israel and relates to her tribulation and Christ's return at the end of that period. Truths relating to the rapture of the church are revealed exclusively in the New Testament Epistles, which were written specifically for the purpose of explaining the intent and nature of the Church age. [...]"
--Dr Thomas Ice [commentary on Matt24-25]
[end quoting Ice]
_______
There is ONE PARABLE (that I can see) that was given "in this present age [singular]," during the time "the Church which is His body" exists on the earth [note: Eph1:20-23 WHEN], which I believe works for the same purposes/to the same end ("seeing, might see and not perceive; and hearing, they might hear and not understand")... and that is the "PARABLE" (which I mentioned earlier) referred to in Hebrews 9:8-9a, :
"By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the *first* tabernacle still having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis], which is A PARABLE for the present time..."
"By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest [G5319] (used also where it says "Jesus APPEARED G5319 *FIRST* to Mary Magdalene"--a different word (for "appear") from the other one I've pointed out (G3708) and its 10 occurrences all following His Resurrection)][/U], the *first* tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in vv.3-4]
yet having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis]. Which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."
G4714 - stasin/stasis is used in a NEGATIVE sense, in 8 of its 9 occurrences (and there meaning [or, usages], "a rebel, revolutionist,...an insurrection, dissension, strife, uproar, a popular uprising, controversy");
but HERE, in its 9th occurrence ONLY, is NOT [negative], but means "A STANDING [stasin/stasis]".
note also: Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1895] says, "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"... so...
-- apo stasis = "apo=away" & "stasis=a standing" [^ same word there ^] = "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "DEPARTURE" (context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant)...
and then when we consider the "A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME" (concerning "the *first* tabernacle [in the wilderness (per ITS "furnishings" named here)] having yet A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis]"... [...<snip>... (for its length)...]
[more I could say about this, but this post is long enough already]
____________
Oh, and one more thing to go along with that ^ :
[quoting Wm Kelly on Heb 9]
"[...] for the tabernacle in the wilderness is before the writer, not the temple: so we saw in Heb. 3, 4, and so it is here and throughout. This is evident in the early verses of the chapter, summed up in "these things having been thus formed" or prepared, not only the tabernacle but its furniture; which differed in some essential respects from the temple, for it [the Temple] was the figure of the millennial kingdom and rest, as the tabernacle is of the resources of grace in Christ for the wilderness and its pilgrimage. Hence the ark when set in the temple had neither the golden pot with manna therein nor Aaron's rod that budded (2 Chronicles 5:10), which we find carefully named in verse 4. With such wisdom markedly divine was the scripture inspired in the O.T. as in the N.T."
--Wm Kelly, Commentary on Heb9:8-9 [source: BibleHub; bold and underline mine; end quoting]
[keep in mind that the word "King" is is used only TWO times in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future"... "Which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [/openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" [a phrase used only in Rev19:16 (and in the reverse order in 17:14)]
[end quoting old posts]
[scroll down to the Greek word "G4714", below]
Here's another thought on the Subject of "PARABLES" that I fairly agree with, and that aligns with what I see in the Word:
Mark 4:10-12 -
The Purpose of Jesus' Parables
(Matthew 13:10-17)
10 And when He was alone, those around Him with the Twelve began asking Him about the parable.
11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, everything is done in parables, 12 so that,
‘Seeing, they might see and not perceive;
and hearing, they might hear and not understand;
lest ever they should turn,
and they should be forgiven.’(a)”
[...]
33 And with many such parables He kept speaking the word to them, as they were able to hear, 34 and He would not speak to them without parables; but privately He would explain all things to His own disciples.
_______
[quoting Thomas Ice- on the subject of "parables"]
"Five Parabolic Illustrations
"[re: Matt24] These parables or illustrations of Jesus are as follows: First, the fig tree illustration (24:32- 35); second, the days of Noah illustration (24:36- 39); third, a comparison of two men and women illustration (24:40- 41); fourth, the faithful house holder illustration (24:42- 44); and fifth, the wise servant illustration (24:45- 51).
"These five parables are important lessons that relate to Israel. In fact, I would go so far as to say that all the parables in the New Testament relate directly to Israel. Often they relate to Israel's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah and speak of consequences that will flow from such an act. Christ told His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17 that He would speak to "this people" (Israel) in order to blind them to the truth because of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. However, believers could come to understand the meaning of His parables because we are receptive of the revelation offered by Christ. Therefore, they all relate to Israel in some way, shape, or form and usually tell us something about God's plan for the future.
"The parables within the Olivet Discourse, when they speak of a coming, all relate to the second coming and not the rapture of the church. This is true because the entire Olivet Discourse was given to Israel and relates to her tribulation and Christ's return at the end of that period. Truths relating to the rapture of the church are revealed exclusively in the New Testament Epistles, which were written specifically for the purpose of explaining the intent and nature of the Church age. [...]"
--Dr Thomas Ice [commentary on Matt24-25]
[end quoting Ice]
_______
There is ONE PARABLE (that I can see) that was given "in this present age [singular]," during the time "the Church which is His body" exists on the earth [note: Eph1:20-23 WHEN], which I believe works for the same purposes/to the same end ("seeing, might see and not perceive; and hearing, they might hear and not understand")... and that is the "PARABLE" (which I mentioned earlier) referred to in Hebrews 9:8-9a, :
"By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the *first* tabernacle still having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis], which is A PARABLE for the present time..."
"By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest [G5319] (used also where it says "Jesus APPEARED G5319 *FIRST* to Mary Magdalene"--a different word (for "appear") from the other one I've pointed out (G3708) and its 10 occurrences all following His Resurrection)][/U], the *first* tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in vv.3-4]
yet having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis]. Which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."
G4714 - stasin/stasis is used in a NEGATIVE sense, in 8 of its 9 occurrences (and there meaning [or, usages], "a rebel, revolutionist,...an insurrection, dissension, strife, uproar, a popular uprising, controversy");
but HERE, in its 9th occurrence ONLY, is NOT [negative], but means "A STANDING [stasin/stasis]".
note also: Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1895] says, "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"... so...
-- apo stasis = "apo=away" & "stasis=a standing" [^ same word there ^] = "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "DEPARTURE" (context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant)...
and then when we consider the "A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME" (concerning "the *first* tabernacle [in the wilderness (per ITS "furnishings" named here)] having yet A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis]"... [...<snip>... (for its length)...]
[more I could say about this, but this post is long enough already]
____________
Oh, and one more thing to go along with that ^ :
[quoting Wm Kelly on Heb 9]
"[...] for the tabernacle in the wilderness is before the writer, not the temple: so we saw in Heb. 3, 4, and so it is here and throughout. This is evident in the early verses of the chapter, summed up in "these things having been thus formed" or prepared, not only the tabernacle but its furniture; which differed in some essential respects from the temple, for it [the Temple] was the figure of the millennial kingdom and rest, as the tabernacle is of the resources of grace in Christ for the wilderness and its pilgrimage. Hence the ark when set in the temple had neither the golden pot with manna therein nor Aaron's rod that budded (2 Chronicles 5:10), which we find carefully named in verse 4. With such wisdom markedly divine was the scripture inspired in the O.T. as in the N.T."
--Wm Kelly, Commentary on Heb9:8-9 [source: BibleHub; bold and underline mine; end quoting]
[keep in mind that the word "King" is is used only TWO times in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future"... "Which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [/openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" [a phrase used only in Rev19:16 (and in the reverse order in 17:14)]
[end quoting old posts]
As long as one continues to mis-define the phrase "the Day of the Lord" and continues to disregard the grammar, and ignores the legitimate [and BEST] definition of the word other there (i.e. its BASE MEANING without injecting things outside the word itself), then one will continue to miss what Paul is actually conveying in chpt 2.
[he REPEATS the SEQUENCE 3x in this passage; which is the SAME SEQUENCE that was provided in 1Th4-5; and also "fits" with the SAME "chronology" in a number of other passages I've pointed out repeatedly]
[he REPEATS the SEQUENCE 3x in this passage; which is the SAME SEQUENCE that was provided in 1Th4-5; and also "fits" with the SAME "chronology" in a number of other passages I've pointed out repeatedly]