Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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When he says stuff like that, it reminds me of someone who caught a train, has one step in and one foot out holding on for dear life hoping not to fall off.
not very secure in my book.
God promised he takes us by the hand and brings us inside the train, then shuts to door so we can’t fall out. He even purchased the ticket.
not very secure in my book.
God promised he takes us by the hand and brings us inside the train, then shuts to door so we can’t fall out. He even purchased the ticket.
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Only genuine believers will persevere unto the end and "have been" saved (past tense, with ongoing present results) from the PENALTY of sin (justification - Romans 5:1) and "will be" saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification - Romans 8:30).
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
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Only genuine believers will persevere unto the end and "have been" saved (past tense, with ongoing present results) from the PENALTY of sin (justification - Romans 5:1) and "will be" saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification - Romans 8:30).
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
people twisting this passage Taking it out of context makes me a little sick.
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Having been regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit, we walk in a new way of life. "Lord, who may dwell in Your sanctuary? Who may live on Your holy hill?
He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from his heart and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman, who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord, who keeps his oath even when it hurts, who lends his money without interest and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken." Amen.
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have gone, all things have been made new." "With God all things are possible" and "all things are possible with Him who believes." The Word of God is true. "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from his heart and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman, who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord, who keeps his oath even when it hurts, who lends his money without interest and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken." Amen.
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have gone, all things have been made new." "With God all things are possible" and "all things are possible with Him who believes." The Word of God is true. "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
Only genuine believers will persevere unto the end and "have been" saved (past tense, with ongoing present results) from the PENALTY of sin (justification - Romans 5:1) and "will be" saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification - Romans 8:30).
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
Does NOT say we WILL BE made partakers if,it says we HAVE BEEN made partakers if. In other words, we are not made partakers of Christ because we hold fast. It says we hold fast because we were made partakers.
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Amen! In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.
What about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.
What about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
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Well, If Jesus said HE would never leave nor forsake us, and that NO ONE, NOT EVEN YOU, can snatch us from His, and His Father's Hands, and the Holy Spirit SEALS us unto the day of redemption, and Paul tells Timothy EVEN IF (ala Peter) we deny Him HE cannot deny Himself, who is in us, and we learn in Romans that NO CREATED THING (YOU are a created thing...Right!?), not death, angels, height, depth, principalities, powers, things present things future....... and on and on..... I'm exhausted just WRITING HOW ETERNALLY SECURE we are!
So you wanna tell us again how a born again CHILD of the One True King, is going to become unborn again, kicked out of their Heavenly Father's family, and tossed into the Lake of Fire?
Remember, you may THINK you can leave Him, but HE said HE would never leave YOU.
Now it IS true that some THINK they are HIS, but have made a false profession of faith. THAT, is not WHO we are discussing.
So you wanna tell us again how a born again CHILD of the One True King, is going to become unborn again, kicked out of their Heavenly Father's family, and tossed into the Lake of Fire?
Remember, you may THINK you can leave Him, but HE said HE would never leave YOU.
Now it IS true that some THINK they are HIS, but have made a false profession of faith. THAT, is not WHO we are discussing.
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Note and disclaimer...A Christian may have a lapse for a season, even a long season, but temporary backsliding is not the same as apostasy. Apostasy is when a "professing" Christian stops being a "professing" Christian. Backsliding is when a Christian has a temporary lapse.
Don't want to backslide though. The only result it brings is wasted time, wasted opportunities, and grief to us, others, and most importantly, God.
Don't want to backslide though. The only result it brings is wasted time, wasted opportunities, and grief to us, others, and most importantly, God.
Yes and AMEN, because of the faithfulness of God.
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Amen! Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
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Hebrews 10: 38 And,
“But my righteous[a] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”[b]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved
Hebrews 6:9- But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
“But my righteous[a] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”[b]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved
Hebrews 6:9- But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
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Where are the words, "can't lose salvation" in the Bible?
Surely, you get the point.
But, the rejection of the word of God is in that parable.
The issue is not that you or I think that seedless soils can be saved. We agree that there is no salvation where there is no word of God (unbelief). That's not the point of contention as it is with this new flavor of once saved always saved that has popped up in the last twenty years or so.
The mistake you're making is instantly inserting your doctrinal presupposition that seedless soil was never saved to begin with every time you see failed faith in the Bible. We know we have to cast out that doctrinal presupposition because the saved, Spirit-filled Galatians had rejected the word of God and went back to the fruitless ways of justification of the law and away from the gospel they heard in the beginning about justification in Christ. Your doctrine says that is impossible for saved people to do.
Surely, you get the point.
But, the rejection of the word of God is in that parable.
The issue is not that you or I think that seedless soils can be saved. We agree that there is no salvation where there is no word of God (unbelief). That's not the point of contention as it is with this new flavor of once saved always saved that has popped up in the last twenty years or so.
The mistake you're making is instantly inserting your doctrinal presupposition that seedless soil was never saved to begin with every time you see failed faith in the Bible. We know we have to cast out that doctrinal presupposition because the saved, Spirit-filled Galatians had rejected the word of God and went back to the fruitless ways of justification of the law and away from the gospel they heard in the beginning about justification in Christ. Your doctrine says that is impossible for saved people to do.
Because that is the soil of a new convert (or a fake convert, of course).
Do you think all believers start out in and have to be the 4th kind of soil?
Of course the 2nd type of soil can represent saving faith in a person.
Is an apple tree not really an apple tree if it doesn't make it through the first summer dry spell?
The parable is about the condition of the heart and whether or not it retains the word of God, not whether or not the word of God was ever really planted and growing there.
Do you think all believers start out in and have to be the 4th kind of soil?
Of course the 2nd type of soil can represent saving faith in a person.
Is an apple tree not really an apple tree if it doesn't make it through the first summer dry spell?
The parable is about the condition of the heart and whether or not it retains the word of God, not whether or not the word of God was ever really planted and growing there.
The specific words, "lose or lost salvation" would settle the issue for you, but those words are nowhere to be found. In regards to the specific words, "can't lose salvation," (Psalm 37:28, John 10:27-28; Ephesians 1:13-14) just to name a few, settles the issue for me.
I gave you a thorough explanation in post #115,712 to explain why I believe that only the 4th soil represented those who are saved. I also gave you a though explanation in post #115,919 to explain why a loss of salvation was inconclusive, but you have your biased agenda to uphold.
I gave you a thorough explanation in post #115,712 to explain why I believe that only the 4th soil represented those who are saved. I also gave you a though explanation in post #115,919 to explain why a loss of salvation was inconclusive, but you have your biased agenda to uphold.
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Yes, the Hebrews were saved. It's speaking to saved believers. Yet, their faith in God was failing. The very thing the Calvin version of once saved always saved says can not possibly happen.
And notice in that same passage, for those of you who's version of once saved always saved says that failed faith is still saving faith:
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. - Hebrews 6:7-8
But so many in the church these days insist that land will still be saved in the end. And so they contradict the rest of the passage that talks about the things that accompany salvation.
And notice in that same passage, for those of you who's version of once saved always saved says that failed faith is still saving faith:
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. - Hebrews 6:7-8
But so many in the church these days insist that land will still be saved in the end. And so they contradict the rest of the passage that talks about the things that accompany salvation.