Which gospel?

RebuildJesussChurch · Dec 5, 2019

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Why do we Christians always threaten Hell when there is disagreement? Only God knows who is saved & who is not. The Bible does say: Faith Without Works is Dead.

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Whether one beieves that faith leads to good works or that good works & faith are both needed, it seems to me that no matter the order, belief without action (change of heart & subsequent behaviours) that you need both.

I am curious to know what the difference is between faith is sufficient, and fatih and works? It seems like the Bible says you need both. The order of it all is what is in question.

Thank you to anyone who can explain this to me.

"[/QUOTE]
Thank you for posting from James. Hurray! We come in to a relationship with God through Jesus Christ by His choice and not on the basis of anything we did to deserve it and even the faith we exercise is the gift of God. Then in a relationship with Him, we are told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Getting saved is not a static position any more than getting married is. God saved the people of Israel out of Egypt. They came through the water of the Red Sea. But they didn't drop everything and sit in the sand! How many made it into the Promised Land? 2. Joshua and Caleb - Jesus and His dog. Why? They followed the Lord wholeheartedly. The Holy Spirit says what happened to Israel is a warning to us: 1 Cor.10. It was not just the sea but the cloud. Salvation, separation and Lordship.

Abraham believed God and it was reconned to him as righteousness. Being made righteous, he went on to do what is right. 1 John 3:4-10. Faith and righteous acts headed up by God are 2 sides of the same coin. In the Bible, faith is mainly loyalty. Joshua and Caleb. Did Israel believe in God? The knew God was real. They saw everything He did, the manna, the glory of God, the pillar of fire. They didn't believe in God meaning, they weren't loyal to Him. They didn't obey Him.

"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My requirements, My commands, My decrees and My laws." Genesis 26:4,5. Why did he obey? Because he believed.

Martin Luther, the wonderful anti-Semite I hear he was, wanted to get rid of the book of James out of the Bible because he wanted it to be "By faith alone." He could not understand that all Truth is held in tension. Faith without works is doesn't exist. They are opposite heads of the same coin. The coin without both faces is not legal tender.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

Considering the fuller context:

[quoting]

Future Glory

(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not comparable to the coming glory to be revealed to [/unto] us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the One having subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay, into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails together until now. 23 And not only so, but we ourselves, even having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also groan ourselves in ourselves, awaiting divine-adoption-as/of-sons [one word, huiothesian / huiothesia - G5206 'son-placement'/'divine-rights-as/of-sons'], the redemption of our body. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope being seen is no hope; for does anyone hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we await in patience.

[end quoting]

We "await" the redemption of our body (that is, when we are "changed")... See also 2Cor5:1-10, esp vv.2-4 (which is speaking of the same thing that 1Cor15:51-54 is (in the parts where it is speaking of the "still-living" members of the Church which is His body, meaning, the "when THIS mortal shall have put on immortality" [not the other aspect, which speaks of "the DEAD IN Christ"/"when THIS corruptible shall have put on incorruption" though these both are referring to the same basic time-slot (that is, immediately preceding our being "caught up TOGETHER-WITH" / i.e. "our Rapture")]);

so... actually, it doesn't just pertain to "the DEAD IN Christ" (who will be being "resurrected" then) but also of the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" at the time of our "bodily CHANGE [/perfected/glorified BODIES]" when then we will be "caught UP/AWAY TOGETHER-WITH" (at the time of our Rapture--where "resurrection" [only] concerned those who had previously DIED [in Christ])

SEE 2Cor5:2-4 (which is covering the aspect of the "still-living" portion of "the Church which is His body" at the time of our "change" [at the time-slot of "our Rapture" (together-with "the dead in Christ" having just been raised)])… This is the "[sure/certain] hope" we do not YET "see" coz it hasn't happened YET.

I'm still in my decaying, tired old body, how 'bout you??

Noose · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Considering the fuller context:

[quoting]

Future Glory

(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not comparable to the coming glory to be revealed to [/unto] us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the One having subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay, into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails together until now. 23 And not only so, but we ourselves, even having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also groan ourselves in ourselves, awaiting divine-adoption-as/of-sons [one word, huiothesian / huiothesia - G5206 'son-placement'/'divine-rights-as/of-sons'], the redemption of our body. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope being seen is no hope; for does anyone hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we await in patience.

[end quoting]

We "await" the redemption of our body (that is, when we are "changed")... See also 2Cor5:1-10, esp vv.2-4 (which is speaking of the same thing that 1Cor15:51-54 is (in the parts where it is speaking of the "still-living" members of the Church which is His body, meaning, the "when THIS mortal shall have put on immortality" [not the other aspect, which speaks of "the DEAD IN Christ"/"when THIS corruptible shall have put on incorruption" though these both are referring to the same basic time-slot (that is, immediately preceding our being "caught up TOGETHER-WITH" / i.e. "our Rapture")]);

so... actually, it doesn't just pertain to "the DEAD IN Christ" (who will be being "resurrected" then) but also of the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" at the time of our "bodily CHANGE [/perfected/glorified BODIES]" when then we will be "caught UP/AWAY TOGETHER-WITH" (at the time of our Rapture--where "resurrection" [only] concerned those who had previously DIED [in Christ])

SEE 2Cor5:2-4 (which is covering the aspect of the "still-living" portion of "the Church which is His body" at the time of our "change" [at the time-slot of "our Rapture" (together-with "the dead in Christ" having just been raised)])… This is the "[sure/certain] hope" we do not YET "see" coz it hasn't happened YET.

I'm still in my decaying, tired old body, how 'bout you??

23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Two things:

1. Awaiting for our adoption as sons
2. Redemption of our bodies (which you call resurrection)

Are these two the same thing or different things? Which one has happened and which one has not yet happened?

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

So, I was pointing out that in Acts 24 (Paul under arrest/trial) is saying that even the Jews have an "expectation" [hope] of "a resurrection both of the just and of the unjust" (the point being, he's saying he's being accused and arrested for "believing God" [v.14] which they ought to think a dumb reason. LOL [see Acts24:12-21, esp v.21, "Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called into question by you this day."])

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

First of all (so we can get our "definitions" understood, so you can grasp what I respond), the word "G5206 - huiothesia / huiothesian " ('son-placement') is not the same idea we have when WE think of "adoption" (bringing a child outside of your family to now be a member of your family legally), but is instead more like "bestowing the full rights to act in the father's name" (this happened, in that day and age back then, when one's own son became of full age, and the father would place his hand on the head of his [own] full-grown son and say, "this is my son, in whom I am well-pleased"--bestowing upon his [own] full-grown son the full rights to 'act in [the father's] name'). We receive this in a "legal" sense, upon trusting/receiving Christ as Saviour, and only later in a "tangible" sense (for lack of a better word) at the time of our future Rapture (when we are "changed" and given "glorified/perfected bodies"--in the passages I've pointed out [but see also 1Cor6:3[14], Rom16:20, etc])

--the "adoption-of-sons" (one word in the Grk)

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

EDIT (sorry, typing too fast, I missed a word) should read - "and say, 'this is my beloved son, in whom I am well-pleased' "

Noose · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1. The creation (universe) is waiting for the sons of God to be revealed so that it is set free from bondage to decay. The creation has been groaning until the time Paul taught this to the Romans (as it is said, present time= the time he wrote to Romans).

It is fraudulent to claim that the sons of God have already been revealed and so the universe is already freed from its bondage to decay.

2. The glory that will be revealed is not necessarily resurrection, though resurrection is part of the process. It is a whole salvation process which is only confirmed at the end, when one has persevered and is made victorious. The glory is about being victorious over sin and sin is confined on the body, so shedding this body (resurrection) is part of this victory.

Rev 3:21To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 2:26 And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.

Those that claim victory now don't know what they are talking about.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

Yes and no... I mean, the "change" that both "the DEAD IN Christ" will undergo, as well as the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" (both taking place in the same general time-slot of the overall "chronology," at the time immediately preceding our being "caught UP-TOGETHER [AS ONE (the 'ONE BODY')]" at "our Rapture/THE Departure" (to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR)

Noose · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Doesn't matter, still wrong.

Noose · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

It says, "...as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies"
It doesn't say "..as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons and the redemption of our bodies"

This means it is one and the same thing. The 'redemption of our bodies' is further explanation of 'our adoption as sons'

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

Not said that. Hello.

We "await" for that ^. (It hasn't happened YET.)

But this does not mean that we are not ALREADY "vitally-connected WITH CHRIST" already (legally / positionally). We are (by means of faith in Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation).

The word "revealing" here does not mean something like, "an awareness TO OURSELVES [of such]"... Recall, 1 John 5:9-13 tells us "[were written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God (just mentioned in vv.9-12! see that section)] THAT ye may KNOW that ye have [PRESENT indicative] eternal life" (and recall, "this LIFE is IN HIS SON" v.11)

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

I was inserting my correction for the benefit of the readers, not merely you. lol

Doesn't sound like you've given it two minutes of consideration, so believe what you wish.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

I AGREE. That is my point, but with the "definition" I provided! (not the "imaginary, MADE UP" definition that most ppl think it means [and it doesn't mean what YOU are saying it means, either!]).

SO... in the ADDITIONAL Scripture references I had provided, which I doubt you could've had time to even look up yet, much less PONDER THOUGHTFULLY

, THOSE items (in 1Cor6:3[14], and Rom16:20 [speaking of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" TIME PERIOD], etc...) HAVE NOT YET TAKEN PLACE/OCCURRED... we AWAIT this YET! (upon our "change"/"perfection"/"glorification"[of our BODIES] / "translation" at the RAPTURE time-slot of the "chronology" i.e. FUTURE to us, yet!)

Noose · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Stop thinking highly of yourself. Every man created of God is vitally connected with God and every man has a chance with God.

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

Believing in the name of son of God is not what you think it is.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

We "received" the package deal the moment we trusted Christ for salvation... (we have YET to have the entire pkg OPENED, but it is OURS/OUR POSSESSION, legally, because of our connection TO/WITH CHRIST!)

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Noose said:

I'm not speaking of "Calvinism" which is what I think you are HEARING me say.

Aside from that,

1 John 2 -

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

11 This is ‘the stone having been rejected by you, the builders,

which has become the head of the corner.’

12 And there is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved.”

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

[see again also 1 John 5:9-12!]

Wansvic · Dec 5, 2019

PennEd said:

The Word states otherwise:

Matt 25:3-4
"They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps."

Noose · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

I know what you mean, some people (you included) are vitally connected to God, ready to be revealed as sons and others, not so lucky.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

Wansvic said:

And my point (somewhere strewn throughout this thread) has been:

--at what point in the overall chronology do these virgins "take [/took]" the lamps, and I'm saying this [per context] is FOLLOWING our Rapture (that is, for the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the overall "chronology"--which time-period ["IN THE NIGHT"] does NOT pertain to "the Church which is His body"); aka, in the trib years (7-yr aspect of the overall "DOTL" earthly time-period [of MUCH DURATION!]).

Which gospel?

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