Purpose

[Flint321]

So, your saying that I do not Permit and Forbid, have two different meanings? that's just being silly.

Also, are you saying you don't believe the bible is the word of God? or i am wrong about that.

They mean the same thing, so it doesn't matter, that comment has no weight, sorry.

 

[Janeaux]

Where's the sarcasm in the above post?

With all due respect, PennEd, you can look through your own posts to find it. I think you have many great things to say and that you can say it all .... just not at the expense of others. It is up to you.

 

[PennEd]

So, your saying that I do not Permit and Forbid, have two different meanings? that's just being silly.

Also, are you saying you don't believe the bible is the word of God? or i am wrong about that.

I'm saying what I said. Why are you having difficulty understanding what I said?

Paul DOESN'T make what HE personally does an imperative, or add that the LORD says it.


How silly to gather that I don't think the Bible is the Word of God, when I stated verbatim what the word said!

 

[PennEd]

With all due respect, PennEd, you can look through your own posts to find it. I think you have many great things to say and that you can say it all .... just not at the expense of others. It is up to you.

Thanks .... I guess.... You might be right. Sometimes we ALL need a break from constantly defending the Gospel against false gospels. But ya might want to think about that log in eye thing Jesus spoke about. Could be me, but I see a fair amount of sarcasm in post's like THIS:

JANEAUX:
" understood you quite easily. Penn Ed seems to think that we do not understand him because breadth of knowledge is unsurpassed "

If that's not sarcasm, I don't know what is!

 

[Janeaux]

I'm saying what I said. Why are you having difficulty understanding what I said?

How silly to gather that I don't think the Bible is the Word of God, when I stated verbatim what the word said!

PennEd: You asked me why I said that you might reword/leave out unnecessary (sarcastic, demeaning things, etc)? Well the above is typica of what you do. I have emboldened just two of your comments for your consideration.

You imply in #1 that we are having difficulty understanding what you say. I dont & I am sure I am not alone.
in #2 you say that the other person is being silly. The word "silly" is a put down. It is demeaning another person & placing yourself on a higher plain.
Your attempts may work on some and make them feel bad. On others, like myself, you are showing me how little you know. As I quoted before:
"The more I know, the more I realize how little I know".

 

[Flint321]

I'm saying what I said. Why are you having difficulty understanding what I said?

Paul DOESN'T make what HE personally does an imperative, or add that the LORD says it.


How silly to gather that I don't think the Bible is the Word of God, when I stated verbatim what the word said!

Ok, well im sorry, thats good you believe the bible to be the word of God, so after Paul gives the instructions on the office of Pastor being a Male only position he says in 1st Tim 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

So Paul is saying that this is how the church of God is to be, the church of the Living God it says, sorry its God's word not Paul's opinion.

Because the Church of the Living God, is God's and this is the word of God

 

[Janeaux]

Thanks .... I guess.... You might be right. Sometimes we ALL need a break from constantly defending the Gospel against false gospels. But ya might want to think about that log in eye thing Jesus spoke about. Could be me, but I see a fair amount of sarcasm in post's like THIS:

JANEAUX:
" understood you quite easily. Penn Ed seems to think that we do not understand him because breadth of knowledge is unsurpassed "

If that's not sarcasm, I don't know what is!

Touche, PennEd, but it had to be said to let you know that you are not smarter than all people and neither am I: Again: "The more I learn, the more I realize how litte I know" ... and that is NOT sarcasm, but wisdom. The very well-educated seem to know this.

 

[PennEd]

PennEd: You asked me why I said that you might reword/leave out unnecessary (sarcastic, demeaning things, etc)? Well the above is typica of what you do. I have emboldened just two of your comments for your consideration.

You imply in #1 that we are having difficulty understanding what you say. I dont & I am sure I am not alone.
in #2 you say that the other person is being silly. The word "silly" is a put down. It is demeaning another person & placing yourself on a higher plain.
Your attempts may work on some and make them feel bad. On others, like myself, you are showing me how little you know. As I quoted before:
"The more I know, the more I realize how little I know".

Interesting that you conveniently left out that I used the EXACT terminology (FROM POSTER:"So, your saying that I do not Permit and Forbid, have two different meanings? that's just BEING SILLY.") the poster used in the post I responded to. Hmmm. Almost as if you had an axe to grind... Are you a past member?

 

[PennEd]

Touche, PennEd, but it had to be said to let you know that you are not smarter than all people and neither am I: Again: "The more I learn, the more I realize how litte I know" ... and that is NOT sarcasm, but wisdom. The very well-educated seem to know this.

Ah!! Now I understand. YOU get to be the arbiter as WHO and when sarcasm gets to be distributed?

Got it!

 

[Flint321]

Im going to bed, good night, make sure u read that comment i wrote, good luck in supporting the wickedness of women pastors, shameful if you ask me.

Also Janeaux, don't be an idiot.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

1 Corinthians 14:35‭, ‬40 KJV

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Let all things be done decently and in order.

It is not honorable for women to be pastors. Paul said it is a shameful. Why would they insist on pastoring?

 

[PennEd]

Im going to bed, good night, make sure u read that comment i wrote, good luck in supporting the wickedness of women pastors, shameful if you ask me.

Also Janeaux, don't be an idiot.

Have a good night! I, like Paul, would not go to a Church where the LEAD Pastor was a woman. Our Church has several women Pastors that do an awesome job in various roles.

 

[DB7]

Here's the thing. I brought up my Greek prof because he is a renowned world authority on translating Greek, including exegetical issues. His father, Robert Mounce is a renowned Greek scholar, his cousin, Daniel Wallace, is the top Greek grammarian in the world.

I told you to read his extensive Word Commentary on this passage after 40 some pages, Bill Mounce comes to the same conclusion as this not so famous old lady writing this. (And not so experienced!) The passage ultimately DOES rest on the single word, authentein, and how it is translated. Mounce himself said that to me in class. The word authentein is a tangled problem, because of being a hapax legomena! How you choose to translate the word depends more in your personal feelings toward the relationship between men and women. Are men special, and the only ones able to serve God in ministry? You simply have failed to prove it scriptural. Your exegesis is wrong!

Complimentarians harp on the roles God gave to Adam and Eve after the Fall in the Garden of Eden. Christ is the second Adam (Romans 5) and he has freed us from the Fall, and the ugly roles that were placed upon both men and women as a result of the Fall. Why would anyone not celebrate that Christ has set us free from sin, which includes sin in the Garden which we all bear, and the end of roles as part of the law. Jesus destroyed roles on the cross, by defeating Satan on the cross.

Why not live in the light of eternity, since Christ has born our place in the cross, and we are being set free from sin and death? We are being sanctified now, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Soon, we will see Jesus face to face, and we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

As for didaskein, it is a term used by rabbinical students. They were not to teach, until they were judged by their master to fully understand the truth of God's Word. Women, mostly illiterate, need to sit quietly and learn, first how to read, and then the gospel. Then the deeper things of God.

Instead of being second class, as in the Roman, Greek and Jewish societies, women were given the right to be saved, follow Christ and to study to show themselves workers approved. Jesus set women free from their bondage, when he died. That sin started in the Garden, but women and men were redeemed and changed by the power of God. If you want to park on Genesis 3 and the results of roles as a consequence of sin, go for it! I am living as a set free New Testament Christian, free to worship God, to learn and grow in my faith, as an equal to any man.

As for Gal 3, you have fallen into the same foolish trap Paul warns of in the beginning of the chapter. You are trying to live by the law, not the Spirit!

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Gal 3:1-6

Mid-chapter, Paul discusses the Seed which is Christ. And how we are one in him. Not first and second that is found no where in scripture. It is a lie from Satan to divide men and women from each other and Christ.

Your hermeneutics supports the division Satan created between God and humans, and man and woman. You are trying to keep alive the consequences of sin, not the result of Christ's death in the cross!
"Whom the Son sets free us free indeed!" John 8:36

Christ came to reconcile us to God and one another. look what Paul states later on in Galatians 3. Christ is the seed of Abraham and we do not claim our inheritance because of the law, but by grace.

"15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one." Gal 3:5-10.

The promised Seed is Christ Jesus. We are joint heirs in soteriology, but we can also claim to be heirs and equal with men, as Paul finishes the chapter, below!
(Your exegesis brings not only faulty, but learned from i Er zealous men!)

"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:26-29

I belong to Christ! I am Abraham's spiritual seed, the same as any man or woman who has given their life to Christ and follow him. I am free to follow the calling of God for my life. I am a pastor, I feed my sheep in my ministry. God called me once to go to seminary, and I did not go. My stumbling block was that only men are pastors. My life went downhill, so when God called me 15 years later to go to seminary, I answered the call and God trained me and gave me the most amazing ministry working with the hurting and broken. Praise God!

Thank you very much Angela for your time and well though-out contention. I must admit, that is an amazing pedigree, Mounce Sr., Mounce Jr., and Daniel Wallace (I know of Wallace & Mounce Jr. rather well through You Tube), quite impressed!
Angela, I still hold to my position, Context starts at the very top, the Bible as a whole, then works it way down through Books, Chapters, History & Culture to a relative degree, and Paragraph, each cannot deny the other. I feel this has been overlooked in an Egalitarian exegesis.
I'm not in accord with the passages that you chose to make your point, for I feel that they support the contrarian position to what you were attempting to underscore. But to refrain from belabouring and exasperating the issue, I 'll simply leave it at that.
Thank you again Angela, it was a pleasure hearing the other side from, what I believe to be, a qualified and astute position.
God bless, I hope that either one of us, depending on who's correct, has not committed something too egregious that it ends up doing more damage than good (I don't believe so at the top of my head, but this is not my jurisdiction)?
Hope to meet up with you again on other posts....

 

[Dino246]

Hi Dino, the reason I called them exegetical errors is because she has overlooked the over-arching context in the pericopes that she quoted, in order to isolate certain verses, and then to give them an isolated context and interpretation. The is in violation of hermeneutics 101. That is why is said elementary. In other words, every single Egalitarian that i have heard to date, always does this, they are forced to isolate every sentence within a paragraph, and then apply a context to it. Absolutely absurd and inept, and this sentiment is not subjective!
Paul, the inspired author, does not speak in 3 different contexts within 1 paragraph, no one does! The bias and ineptitude is evident in those who say otherwise!

The accusation you make of egalitarians is exactly the error I would level at complementarians: ignorance of context.

Both of you Dino, tried to isolate authentein in order to contrive your own context as being circumstantial. Meanwhile, didaskein is right beside authentein in order to refine the context, and then ultimately, verse 13 speaks on the most fundamental and intrinsic manner possible, 'Adam was firmed first'. All in the same context of thought! Dino, I am seeing nothing but denial here.

There simply is no inherent reason why prior creation would confer superiority of position. If anything, the overall tenor of Scripture is that the second-born is the favoured one. However, in the specific cultural/religious context into which Paul was writing, his statement makes perfect sense. The Ephesian female-led cults taught that Eve was formed first and that she was not deceived.

Go ahead, I challenge you to call me ignorant, irresponsible or frivolous, unwise or incompetent in my understanding of what I just analysed, and the process therein?

Unlike you, I don't need to use insults when I disagree with you. I thought you didn't either. Oh well.

 

[pottersclay]

Well, God didn't say anything to you, its just your own delusion.

Walk by Faith, don't walk by your senses and feelings.

God has spoken to us in His word, that is God's way of tellings us things.

Alot of Christians do this, yet they don't realize that there hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked by nature, they can't trust themselves, this is why you must live by what God has said in His Word.

God never put a verse in the bible that says for example:
Genesis 37:40 "look around you, look at each and everyone of them. And then He said "a life lived outside your purpose for existence, is a life lived ineffectively, And then He said "a life lived outside your purpose for existence, is a life lived ineffectively."

I cant find it bro.

George Muller said "if i'm following voices and impressions, then i am a most deluded person."

Well I'm glad George straightened you out on that. Let me see....hhhmmm well according to the religious leaders it wasn't scriptural to heal on the Sabbath. Nor for David's men to eat from the alter. Then there's Jeremiah with public lewdness. Then there's Paul turning over someone to Satan. Elijah raising up a bear to kill those who made fun of him. Of course David dancing in the streets. And who was that left-handed guy that snuck through the guards and killed the king? The list goes on and on.
As far as women preachers or teachers don't you think that Mary had a hand in teaching Jesus scripture and tradition. How about Esther she was quite out of line huh. Of course Timothy listening to his grandmother was wrong. Moses's wife reminding him of circumcision needed to be put in her place. Of course there was that prostitute that saved God's people by lying.
Naomi a moabite what chance did she have?
I guess when Paul said to test the spirits to see if they are of God was a bit out of line.

 

[EleventhHour]

Just take your bible and rip out the parts in the O.T. and N.T. pertaining to the qualifications of a Bishop, or maybe the parts in the O.T. pertaining to the priests and who was allowed or not to stand and read the word.......nothing like 21st century watered down pseudo Christianity..............!!

Yes, I have had to think on this more lately, the big picture is important, I agree.

 

[Dino246]

Ok, well im sorry, thats good you believe the bible to be the word of God, so after Paul gives the instructions on the office of Pastor being a Male only position he says in 1st Tim 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

So Paul is saying that this is how the church of God is to be, the church of the Living God it says, sorry its God's word not Paul's opinion.

Because the Church of the Living God, is God's and this is the word of God

Where is the word, "pastor" in 1 Timothy?

Oh, whoops... it isn't there.

Perhaps then you should not be so dogmatic in your claim that Paul forbids women from being "pastors".

 

[Flint321]

Where is the word, "pastor" in 1 Timothy?

Oh, whoops... it isn't there.

Perhaps then you should not be so dogmatic in your claim that Paul forbids women from being "pastors".

This comment is gold, how about overseer? 1st Timothy 3:1 If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

Can you explain this office to us? is it a pastor?

 

[Flint321]

Ill give you a hint, 1st Timothy 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

is that a Pastor?

Oh btw, this role also is a teaching role 1st Timothy 3:2 "able to teach"

Lets do the ABC together, Overseer + Teaching + God's Church = ?????

 

[garee]

1 Corinthians 14:35‭, ‬40 KJV

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Let all things be done decently and in order.

It is not honorable for women to be pastors. Paul said it is a shameful. Why would they insist on pastoring?

Its a honor to search out the gospel understanding to a kingdom of priest. This is after the new order spoken of in Joel. Men and women from all nations working as one kingdom of priest as Ambassadors not of this world ..

This prohibition "woman silent" was directed against the arrogant leadership of some of the Corinthian women in the promotion of a fad, that of (speaking in tongue) prophesying or preaching the gospel in public places. The former order of Kings in Israel forbid men and woman together or Jewish woman from the gentiles in a ceremonial setting celebration. A high wall between

In their new freedom Their over zealously cast them in a role of immodesty and rebellion even against their own husbands,. Paul's rule was this sinful usurpation of their husbands' status as head of the family which was the result of their wrongdoing. And not that their voices should not being heard in a Christian environment. No law against preaching the gospel, prophesying in a new tongue in a assembly but the rejection of lawful authority.

Looking to of the creation and fall, God said to Eve, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee" (Genesis 3:16).

Its not they cannot prophesy or speak in tongues by declaring the written will. But God will not chose one over the other, Its a team work of pastoring the flock .Two working as one . Like Mary and Martha . Both kinds of works needed to make one. It would be like "order in the courtyard" only the voice of God should be sought after.