Cain's Offering

[garee]

it says they did this "in the course of time"
though they were not under the law, the law informs us about precepts. sin offerings in the law were not made at appointed times except Yom Kippur, as far as i can recall? ((do point out to me exceptions if you know of any)). they were made with the confession of the sin - as at Yom Kippur the high priest lays the sin of the people on one of the goats. if they are replicating God making the garments for their parents, that too, was done at the time of their confession and judgement. i don't see any sense in Genesis 3 that God needed to keep making garments for them.
if they are commemorating the giving of the garments to Adam & Woman/Eve, then what they are doing isn't atoning for their own sin. it is more like Passover, a remembrance. it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not - Passover is in the midst of firstfruits and Yom Kippur is not, and individual offerings for transgression are when the sin is committed and confessed, not "in the course of time" ((taking that to imply a specified time)). if they are observing a remembrance, then the reason blood is involved is because blood was present in the first event, not because they are doing this to seek forgiveness for their own individual sin. God doesn't instruct Cain to make a sacrifice to atone for his own sin - but in the law, there is no sacrifice for murder. God covers him with a mark when he pleads for mercy - and the only blood spilled is Abel's.
you have cited 'the standard answers' but what explains all these things?

It would seem to be one of those standard answers that God slew an animal which could be true. This is even though it does not say he did kill or spoke of pouring out blood.

It could of been he corrupted flesh of another kind, as a sign. The glory had departed .Previously having a glow that came from being in the presence of God naked and not ashamed .Like that of Moses when he came down having experienced the presence of God using Mount Sinai to represent the kingdom of God. Clothing the dead with corrupted flesh. Revealing the wrath of God from heaven

Genesis3: 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

 

[49]

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering? Required blood. Probably since the first animals killed to cover Adam and Eve with skins they understood that a blood sacrifice of animals were to be made to cover their transgression until such a time as a seed of the woman would crush the serpents head. It is likely that they had a theology revealed to them from God that included the importance of the blood offering and a coming redeemer becase we see Enoch contending with the sons of men (Cains camp) and speaking about a coming of the the Lord with myriads of his saints. This Enoch having lived 365 years contemporary with Adam suggests a theology that was much more complex than we have a record of. We know that they had a theology of a coming redeemer that included judgement against those who spoke against him and it is likely that at this time of Abel and Cains offering there was enough taught to them already by Adam for Cain to know it required blood. But this is difficult to prove.


What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well? Probably Anger. The context seems to connect that of being wroth with the sin that lies at the door. This also seems to continue to be the root cause of many sins throughout the history of mankind. It also reminds of us of how we are told to resist the devil and overcome temptation by submitting to God.

What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"? You can overcome temptation and become strong in areas that you use to struggle with if you are willing to face these battles and submit to God and not yield to the flesh, in this case anger, but fill in the blank of lusts of the flesh. Soon you will not even feel any enticement in that area but will master it, your first reaction will not be anger as it used to be. You will have mastered it.

Thank you!

 

[49]

it says they did this "in the course of time"
though they were not under the law, the law informs us about precepts. sin offerings in the law were not made at appointed times except Yom Kippur, as far as i can recall? ((do point out to me exceptions if you know of any)). they were made with the confession of the sin - as at Yom Kippur the high priest lays the sin of the people on one of the goats. if they are replicating God making the garments for their parents, that too, was done at the time of their confession and judgement. i don't see any sense in Genesis 3 that God needed to keep making garments for them.
if they are commemorating the giving of the garments to Adam & Woman/Eve, then what they are doing isn't atoning for their own sin. it is more like Passover, a remembrance. it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not - Passover is in the midst of firstfruits and Yom Kippur is not, and individual offerings for transgression are when the sin is committed and confessed, not "in the course of time" ((taking that to imply a specified time)). if they are observing a remembrance, then the reason blood is involved is because blood was present in the first event, not because they are doing this to seek forgiveness for their own individual sin. God doesn't instruct Cain to make a sacrifice to atone for his own sin - but in the law, there is no sacrifice for murder. God covers him with a mark when he pleads for mercy - and the only blood spilled is Abel's.
you have cited 'the standard answers' but what explains all these things?

it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not -

So in other words, he brought a rotten offering, or from mid-way through the growing season?

 

[John146]

it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not -

So in other words, he brought a rotten offering, or from mid-way through the growing season?

I don’t think so. They knew the requirement of God. It was a blood offering. Cain could have brought all the best of his crop but it would not have been pleasing to God.

 

[Shekinahglory]

Have three questions (for now) pertaining to this:

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well?

What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"?

1) There were no offerings in the Garden until the offering that covered the fallen sinners. God has types in the Bible. Types are like shadows and this Innocent who was slain for the guilty represented Jesus Christ as the one and only offering. Cain's offering did not reflect the Lamb of God and as such it was rejected.

2) the word can be translated sin or sin-offering and I think both are meant here. This is the choice evey person must make, take the sin-offering Jesus Christ or you must control sin as no man can control it. The thing that stands out to me is how God sought to turn Cain from His sin this is the long-suffering God Scripture reveals not the blood-thirsty can't wait to judge you God many believe in. Men love God because He first loved us.

3) To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." It is actually the reverseve of your quote. The woman was going to be having desire for her husband and the man would rule over her because she bucked the system and led and Adam because he did not love and protect her. Hope this helps.

 

[49]

I don’t think so. They knew the requirement of God. It was a blood offering. Cain could have brought all the best of his crop but it would not have been pleasing to God.

Gotcha! Finally believe am understanding, and thank you all for your time. Still open for more, too!

 

[49]

Have three questions (for now) pertaining to this:

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well?

What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"?

1) There were no offerings in the Garden until the offering that covered the fallen sinners. God has types in the Bible. Types are like shadows and this Innocent who was slain for the guilty represented Jesus Christ as the one and only offering. Cain's offering did not reflect the Lamb of God and as such it was rejected.

2) the word can be translated sin or sin-offering and I think both are meant here. This is the choice evey person must make, take the sin-offering Jesus Christ or you must control sin as no man can control it. The thing that stands out to me is how God sought to turn Cain from His sin this is the long-suffering God Scripture reveals not the blood-thirsty can't wait to judge you God many believe in. Men love God because He first loved us.

3) To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." It is actually the reverseve of your quote. The woman was going to be having desire for her husband and the man would rule over her because she bucked the system and led and Adam because he did not love and protect her. Hope this helps.

Thank you as well. The 3rd question was actually in reference to Genesis 4:7.
Thanks again!

 

[Webers.Home]

.

it is significant that Abel sheds blood

I've yet to be shown irrefutable evidence that Abel's offering was slain.
Noah's were obviously slain because they are identified as burnt offerings
(Gen 8:20). But Abel's is not so identified.

It could be argued that Heb 12:24 verifies that Abel's offering was slain, but
it could also be argued that Heb 12:24 speaks of Abel's blood rather than
that of his offering.

"Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." (Gen 4:10)
_

 

[John146]

.



I've yet to be shown irrefutable evidence that Abel's offering was slain.
Noah's were obviously slain because they are identified as burnt offerings
(Gen 8:20). But Abel's is not so identified.

It could be argued that Heb 12:24 verifies that Abel's offering was slain, but
it could also be argued that Heb 12:24 speaks of Abel's blood rather than
that of his offering.

"Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." (Gen 4:10)
_

Is this not enough?

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

 

[49]

.



I've yet to be shown irrefutable evidence that Abel's offering was slain.
Noah's were obviously slain because they are identified as burnt offerings
(Gen 8:20). But Abel's is not so identified.

It could be argued that Heb 12:24 verifies that Abel's offering was slain, but
it could also be argued that Heb 12:24 speaks of Abel's blood rather than
that of his offering.

"Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." (Gen 4:10)
_

That was a copy and paste; sorry for the confusion. Have done that several times in this thread, but am kinda computer illiterate, lol.

Thank you Webers.Home! All insight appreciated, and plenty to think on from all.

Have a blessed day!

 

[dcontroversal]

Genesis 4: 1-7 (KJV)

1) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2) And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6) And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Have three questions (for now) pertaining to this:

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well?

What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"?

Do not see much to go on, unless it is explained later in scripture. Thanks in advance.

Cain is 1st on the list in JUDE that false teachers are compared to...Cains offering was not in faith, was the works of his hands and of the cursed ground and was not a blood offering which pointed to Christ.

Abel makes the 11th chapter of Hebrews as a man of faith, his offering was in faith, was the blood of a lamb without blemish and spot and points to Christ.

This whole theme is woven throughout the bible....as well as those that OFFER their WORKS as an attempt to be accepted by God or have their sin and shame covered....always rejected and reeks of a lack of faith...

Adam and Eve sewed leaves together <--rejected and God killed and animal (shed blood and covered them)

Cain and Abel <--Abel offered blood was accepted, Cain rejected because he offered the works of a cursed ground, no blood and no faith

Sin's desire is to rule over us...through faith, salvation we can master over it....NOT that we will be without sin, but sin less and less and we mature in Christ and are transformed by the renewing of the mind through a study of the word of God.

 

[49]

Cain is 1st on the list in JUDE that false teachers are compared to...Cains offering was not in faith, was the works of his hands and of the cursed ground and was not a blood offering which pointed to Christ.

Abel makes the 11th chapter of Hebrews as a man of faith, his offering was in faith, was the blood of a lamb without blemish and spot and points to Christ.

This whole theme is woven throughout the bible....as well as those that OFFER their WORKS as an attempt to be accepted by God or have their sin and shame covered....always rejected and reeks of a lack of faith...

Adam and Eve sewed leaves together <--rejected and God killed and animal (shed blood and covered them)

Cain and Abel <--Abel offered blood was accepted, Cain rejected because he offered the works of a cursed ground, no blood and no faith

Sin's desire is to rule over us...through faith, salvation we can master over it....NOT that we will be without sin, but sin less and less and we mature in Christ and are transformed by the renewing of the mind through a study of the word of God.

Really like this as well.

Thank you!

 

[TLC209]

But now, we show our faith by following what God told Paul to instruct us, by ceasing from all works, and believing in his Son's death burial and resurrection as the sufficient means of salvation. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

This portion is wrong. Everything else you had mentioned about Cain and Abel was correct. You did a great job explaining and answering the questions.

God is the same yesterday today and forever. He requires faith and obedience. Love and committment. Paul never taught to cease from doing works. Paul taught that works do not save. Works that come from faith are counted as righteousness and are true faith demonstrated. Without works faith is dead or better yet counterfeit. Works signifies obedience. That should never cease, the bible teaches to obey. This includes Pauls teachings as well.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Genesis 4: 1-7 (KJV)

1) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2) And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6) And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Have three questions (for now) pertaining to this:

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well?

What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"?

Do not see much to go on, unless it is explained later in scripture. Thanks in advance.

Life Is In the blood.

 

[posthuman]

It would seem to be one of those standard answers that God slew an animal which could be true. This is even though it does not say he did kill or spoke of pouring out blood.

It could of been he corrupted flesh of another kind, as a sign. The glory had departed .Previously having a glow that came from being in the presence of God naked and not ashamed .Like that of Moses when he came down having experienced the presence of God using Mount Sinai to represent the kingdom of God. Clothing the dead with corrupted flesh. Revealing the wrath of God from heaven

Genesis3: 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

hard to imagine how one comes up with a pelt/hide without spilling the blood of the creature that once wore it.
why would Adam name his wife "Living" upon seeing God robe her in corruption as a symbol of death and decay, covering shame with shame?

 

[posthuman]

Cain and Abel <--Abel offered blood was accepted, Cain rejected because he offered the works of a cursed ground, no blood and no faith

was it evil for Cain to till the ground?
it was Adam's vocation in the garden, to tend it, and it was what God said he would do all the days of his life - eat the plants of the field by the sweat of his brow. grain offerings are acceptable - even commanded in the law, 2,500 years later.
if Cain was a worker of the soil like his father before him, where was Cain supposed to get blood to offer?

 

[posthuman]

This portion is wrong. Everything else you had mentioned about Cain and Abel was correct. You did a great job explaining and answering the questions.

God is the same yesterday today and forever. He requires faith and obedience. Love and committment. Paul never taught to cease from doing works. Paul taught that works do not save. Works that come from faith are counted as righteousness and are true faith demonstrated. Without works faith is dead or better yet counterfeit. Works signifies obedience. That should never cease, the bible teaches to obey. This includes Pauls teachings as well.

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
(Hebrews 4:10)​

 

[posthuman]

Faith in God in every time period is based on believing what God said. It was his grace that he gave us instructions on how to approach him, and we show our faith by following those instructions precisely

there is no record of instructions given to Adam, to Eve, to Abel or to Cain regarding offerings or how to approach Him. i think we should let Genesis 1-3 inform us about Genesis 4.
the record introducing the narrative of Genesis 4 is Genesis 3:21, that the LORD made tunics of hide for Adam & Eve.
it is much more natural to presume that what they are doing is a voluntary commemoration of this than to imagine that God commanded them a detailed liturgical code that He doesn't bother recording in the book -- are they making tunics for themselves? what do they wear? what does Abel do with the hide from the sheep he slaughtered? God tells Cain "if you do what is right" - how does what is actually written in Genesis 3 inform him of what is right and what is wrong? God removes the coverings they made for themselves and makes coverings for them Himself. is Cain wearing fig leaves? if Abel's gift showed faith and Cain's showed unbelief, how did it show unbelief? it's not like he brought nothing at all - and seeing that Abel was a keeper of sheep, it's not like he didn't offer something from his own labor. just how evil is Cain's offering?

 

[Guojing]

This portion is wrong. Everything else you had mentioned about Cain and Abel was correct. You did a great job explaining and answering the questions.

God is the same yesterday today and forever. He requires faith and obedience. Love and committment. Paul never taught to cease from doing works. Paul taught that works do not save. Works that come from faith are counted as righteousness and are true faith demonstrated. Without works faith is dead or better yet counterfeit. Works signifies obedience. That should never cease, the bible teaches to obey. This includes Pauls teachings as well.

I am talking how to approach God, how to be justified as righteous before him.

I am not saying "Don't do any good works".

 

[Adstar]

Genesis 4: 1-7 (KJV)

1) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2) And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6) And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Have three questions (for now) pertaining to this:

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

Because Abel's offering was symbolic of the future flesh and blood offering of the LORD Jesus Christ on the cross.. From reading the passage God was not angry at Cain, It was not a rejection of Cain but the rejection of Cains style of offering.. The Bible makes the statement later on that the shedding of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

The incident with Cain and Abel was all about establishing what the proper symbolic sacrifice was to be.. It was a teaching opportunity that God used to set this principle..

What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well?

Cains wroth ( anger ) was already sin because it was unjustafiable anger and God was warning Him that anger can lead to greater sins ( murder ) that sin was still in the future it was near,, at the door,, God before hand was telling Cain that if He did well and avoided sinning in the future all would be well for Cain.. Gods question to Cain ""why art thou wroth? "" Was God using a question to try and get Cain to think things over.. Cain was not justified to be angry.. There was no reason to be angry.. God had not rejected Cain.. He had however rejected Cains sacrafice because it did not include the sheding of blood..