Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

[ForestGreenCook]

Well the bottom line is that there could be no forgiveness of sins until and unless all our sins had been atoned for. So it is not forgiveness vs justice, but forgiveness FOLLOWS justice. The Bible is crystal clear that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Christ shed His blood for our redemption AND AT THE SAME TIME He made His soul an offering for sin. It is all clearly spelled out in the Bible.

But we need to understand that Christ's offering was to God for God's acceptance and not to man for man's acceptance. The purpose was for the atonement of man's sins, but the sacrificial offering was to God for his acceptance.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But we need to understand that Christ's offering was to God for God's acceptance and not to man for man's acceptance. The purpose was for the atonement of man's sins, but the sacrificial offering was to God for his acceptance.

That's a given.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God does not chasten the wicked that are not his elect. Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scorgest every soul he receiveth. (Heb 12:6). Those that he does not chasten, he does not love. Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek interpretation = Divinely punished) like other men.

Who said anything about God chastening the wicked? Chastening applies to God's children.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Do you believe God's will is always done?

Yes, but God allows Satan to intervene with man as in the case of Job. Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Who said anything about God chastening the wicked? Chastening applies to God's children.

If he chastens only those that he loves, then that would mean that he does not love all mankind, as you assume in thinking that he loves the whole world of mankind in John 3:16, What is your thoughts? All scriptures must harmonize.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's a given.

The sacrificial offering was for only those that God gave to Christ and Christ said "it is finished" meaning there would be no more sacrifice for sins and that his work on the cross was successful for the eternal redemption of all that he sacrificed for.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Forgiveness is not the atonement. That is calvinistic type of reasoning where once the atonement is made, salvation automatically follows.

The biblical model is that atonement is made, yet we are only reconciled and the atonement is applied to us once we have faith.

A scripture reference would be helpful to help in understanding your assertion.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Yes, but God allows Satan to intervene with man as in the case of Job. Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Well God's will is not always done according to the Scriptures:

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Isa. 5:Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, BUT to the will of God.

A scripture reference would be helpful to help in understanding your assertion.

Here:
2 Cor 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD WERE PLEADING through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, BE RECONCILED TO GOD.”

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The atonement does not come from the message. The atonement is not the message, and the message is not the atonement.

If your wife makes you a sandwich, and tells you that it is waiting for you on the table, you have received the good news ("gospel") about lunch, but not lunch itself. Similarly, if you hear the gospel but don't respond in faith, your sin is not covered by the atonement.

In your analogy the sandwich (eternal salvation) is offered to man. The atonement (eternal salvation) was not offered to man for man's acceptance, but to God for God's acceptance. The gospel (good news) is the message telling you that those that God gave to Christ already have eternal life. which is far better news than just an offer.

 

[PS]

Well God's will is not always done according to the Scriptures:

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Isa. 5:Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, BUT to the will of God.

Here:
2 Cor 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD WERE PLEADING through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, BE RECONCILED TO GOD.”

They exercised their God given free will. When it comes to backsliding, please do not let anyone say we do not have free will. However, it is very unwise to oppose God's will, because those who do, will find their end is worse than their beginning.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well God's will is not always done according to the Scriptures:

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Isa. 5:Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, BUT to the will of God.

Here:
2 Cor 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD WERE PLEADING through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, BE RECONCILED TO GOD.”

The good news of the gospel is to inform God's children that they have the imputed righteousness of Christ and do not have to go about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works, as evidenced in Romans 10:1-2-3, reconciling (to return to favor with God=Greek interpretation) them to the knowledge of the gospel. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost sheep (God's children) of the house of Israel. God's instructions to the preachers of the gospel is for them to feed his sheep, those who are already saved eternally.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

They exercised their God given free will. When it comes to backsliding, please do not let anyone say we do not have free will. However, it is very unwise to oppose God's will, because those who do, will find their end is worse than their beginning.

Yes, God does give man a free will to choose how he want to live his life here on earth, but their eternal destination is by the sovereign grace of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well God's will is not always done according to the Scriptures:

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Isa. 5:Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, BUT to the will of God.

Here:
2 Cor 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD WERE PLEADING through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, BE RECONCILED TO GOD.”

God is not pleased with man's decisions and therefore chastens them, but he has given them a free will to live their lives here on earth as they please, but their eternal destination is by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of man.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

God is not pleased with man's decisions and therefore chastens them, but he has given them a free will to live their lives here on earth as they please, but their eternal destination is by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of man.

Our choices determine our eternal destiny, that is how God decreed it. If man has free will as you say, but is still elect and lives any way they please, are they still saved?

 

[PS]

Our choices determine our eternal destiny, that is how God decreed it. If man has free will as you say, but is still elect and lives any way they please, are they still saved?

Matthew 6:24 tells us no man can serve two masters, also we are known by our fruit, so if they are living a life that is not pleasing to God, I doubt they will enter the kingdom of God, unless they repent of course. The prodigal son returned to the Father, so there is always hope.

 

[OneOfHis]

it appears that you are defining God's wrath as a punitive form of payment, as in your statement 'never pay the price for sin'? I disagree, in that God is not desiring a price to be paid in order to satisfy or propitiate his wrath

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


3408. misthos ►

Strong's Concordance

misthos: wages, hire​

Original Word: μισθός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: misthos
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-thos')
Definition: wages, hire
Usage: (a) pay, wages, salary, (b) reward, recompense, punishment.

​

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Our choices determine our eternal destiny, that is how God decreed it. If man has free will as you say, but is still elect and lives any way they please, are they still saved?

Yes, but only after God has regenerated them, Eph 2.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Our choices determine our eternal destiny, that is how God decreed it. If man has free will as you say, but is still elect and lives any way they please, are they still saved?

Sorry, but the bible does not say that our eternal salvation is determined by our choices. Salvation by Greek interpretation means "deliverance" and we are delivered many times as we live here on earth. Example; When we ask God for healing, and he heals us, we have been delivered from that illness.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Yes, but only after God has regenerated them, Eph 2.

You are preaching a lawless Gospel that is really no Gospel at all. I will not conversate with you until that changes. That is not even Calvinism what you are preaching, it is something else, but among the same lines, very strange.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are preaching a lawless Gospel that is really no Gospel at all. I will not conversate with you until that changes. That is not even Calvinism what you are preaching, it is something else, but among the same lines, very strange.

Jesus accomplished what he went to the cross to do and that was to pay in full for the sins of those that God gave him, and Jesus is not a failure. Every sin of everyone he died for is payed in full and no sin that we commit will be held to our account as far as our eternal inheritance is concerned. The majority of the population in Jesus's time on earth looked upon the doctrine he taught about the same way that you are. They said "it is a hard teaching, who can understand it"? But guess what! You do not have to understand it to be eternally saved. Eph 2 makes that very clear.