Which gospel?

[Noose]

No, this is not what *I* have said is the context (recall, I am NEITHER "Calvinist" [who WOULD say such a thing] NOR "Arminianist"! You may not recall my saying that, repeatedly )

The context is the "future, specific, limited time period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [which *specific* future, limited "time period" FOLLOWS "our Rapture" and pertains to Israel, to whom the earthly kingdom *was promised*--those "WISE [of Israel]" who *WILL HAVE* come to faith IN/DURING the/those trib years, FOLLOWING our Rapture, and the "guests [plural]" (i.e. Gentiles) who "accept the INVITATION" to it! (i.e. also "come to faith"]);

--the passage has a specific application (we are not to just randomly "apply" things willy-nilly, but instead, we are called to "correctly apportion the word of truth"--I find that sorely lacking in those who, say, MIS-APPLY the "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" parable by saying THEY are whom Jesus is coming to MARRY [whacked doctrine, "10 or even 5 Virgins [PLURAL]!" to MARRY?? Hello!] No.

This, instead, pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (their entrance into the EARTHLY MK age, upon His "RETURN"--see again what I pointed out, in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" (per Rev19:7) THEN the meal [aka the EARTHLY MK age, they will ENTER in *MORTAL* bodies[capable of reproducing/bearing children], meaning, those who are STILL-LIVING at the END of the trib, like Daniel 12:13 refers to [not 12:12; and not Rev20:4b regarding those who will have physically DIED and thus be "resurrected" to bodies which will NOT be capable of reproducing/bearing children, but will "be like the angels"]



No, this is not the point I was making there.

Try again.

I don't believe in rapture and all those things you are saying, but i won't dwell on that. I want to talk and understand salvation and belief in Christ.

Q. Will judgement be according what a person has done (works) or what they thought?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That any "hint" of spiritual maturity, instantly becomes their "next" target, of "obtaining, or maintaing" one's salvation?

I've not seen any complaints by ppl in this thread, about covering the subject of "spiritual maturity"...

we should, however, take note of passages such as the following (to/for/about "the Church which is His body"):

" And we all having been unveiled in face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord [the risen, ascended, and EXALTED Lord], are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit." 2Cor3:18

I believe it's because they are more scared of being wrong, then in their "taking responsibility."

What?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Q. Will judgement be according what a person has done (works) or what they thought?

Well, the verse you supplied to support your notion that "belief" and "working" EQUATE to each other [as though they are essentially the same word; or, interchangeable] had BOTH of those words, and which two words were separated by something like the word "also" [as though they are indeed two distinct words having two distinct meanings, and NOT interchangeable]... You would have to use something a little more convincing.

I've already pointed out: "Some of the Jews were persuaded [G3982 - epeisthēsan / peithó * ] and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few leading women."

[ * "3982 peíthō (the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy. " - source of quote: BibleHub (bold mine)]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, the verse you supplied to support your notion that "belief" and "working" EQUATE to each other [as though they are essentially the same word; or, interchangeable] had BOTH of those words, and which two words were separated by something like the word "also" [as though they are indeed two distinct words having two distinct meanings, and NOT interchangeable]... You would have to use something a little more convincing.

I've already pointed out: "Some of the Jews were persuaded [G3982 - epeisthēsan / peithó * ] and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few leading women."

[ * "3982 peíthō (the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy. " - source of quote: BibleHub (bold mine)]

Good luck, not sure who your conversing with but good luck

 

[Noose]

Well, the verse you supplied to support your notion that "belief" and "working" EQUATE to each other [as though they are essentially the same word; or, interchangeable] had BOTH of those words, and which two words were separated by something like the word "also" [as though they are indeed two distinct words having two distinct meanings, and NOT interchangeable]... You would have to use something a little more convincing.

I've already pointed out: "Some of the Jews were persuaded [G3982 - epeisthēsan / peithó * ] and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few leading women."

[ * "3982 peíthō (the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy. " - source of quote: BibleHub (bold mine)]

Q. Will judgement be according to what a man has done (works) or what a man thinks or was persuaded of?

This is a very simple question i don't see the need for a complicated answer.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It seems some people have "deleted" the word NOT in verse 21!

..... but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.

WoW!.....I may be wrong here, but doesn't "DOING" indicate (egadz!) WORKS?

Funny! I don't see any mention of salvation here!

shall enter into the kingdom OF THE heavenS… (not Heaven, here in this CONTEXT!)… the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth--what I just pointed out in my previous post, or two ago ^ )

 

[NayborBear]

I've not seen any complaints by ppl in this thread, about covering the subject of "spiritual maturity"...

we should, however, take note of passages such as the following (to/for/about "the Church which is His body"):

" And we all having been unveiled in face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord [the risen, ascended, and EXALTED Lord], are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit." 2Cor3:18



What?

Lemme "break it down" for ya then.

Something I've asked from you, but something you seem unwilling to do with me.

It means "picking up your cross!" And moving beyond the the "principle doctrines of Christ" and dealing with the Father: "Mano a Mano", if you will.

Which is what Christ is inferring here:
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[NayborBear]

shall enter into the kingdom OF THE heavenS… (not Heaven, here in this CONTEXT!)… the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth--what I just pointed out in my previous post, or two ago ^ )

You are willing to concede then, there is not only a "government" that Christ bares on His shoulders, but, that this "government" also has "structure/s/levels of access, which comes with authority/responsibilities?"

Yanno this does not "hold water" with the "no works required" crowd doncha?

Maybe there's hope for you yet.

Now, if I could just decipher your cipherings!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Q. Will judgement be according to what a man has done (works) or what a man thinks or was persuaded of?

This is a very simple question i don't see the need for a complicated answer.

If you are talking about "the Church which is His body," then THIS (below); but if not, then a different passage than THIS ONE (I just can't tell "who" your question is pertaining to exactly... coz you're being rather general in stating it) ; THIS CONTEXT pertains to "the Church which is His body" :

2 Corinthians 5 [hcsb] -

9 Therefore, whether we are at home or away [<--see context preceding], we make it our aim to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the tribunal [bematos] of Christ, so that each may be repaid for what he has done in [/through/by means of] the body, whether good or worthless.

11 Therefore, because we know the fear of the Lord, we seek to persuade [G3982] people. We are completely open before God, and I hope we are completely open to your consciences as well. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again, but giving you an opportunity to be proud of us, so that you may have a reply for those who take pride in the outward appearance rather than in the heart. 13 For if we are out of our mind, it is for God; if we have a sound mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: If One died for all, then all died. 15 And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised.

The Ministry of Reconciliation

16 From now on, then, we do not know anyone in a purely human way. Even if we have known Christ in a purely human way, yet now we no longer know Him in this way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come. 18 Everything is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through [/by means of] Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.” 21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


____________

[note: the ABOVE ^ passage is with regard to "REWARD" not "to obtain SALVATION"]

There are something like 7 (?) or so "judgments" in Scripture... if you are talking about "the DEAD [/unsaved]" (of all times) then THAT [context] is at an entirely DISTINCT/DIFFERENT "judgment" from that of the one shown above ^ ... and would instead be at the "Great White throne" judgment (Rev20:11-15, which is the same as the SECOND of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]; whereas the FIRST of these TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] PARALLEL [TIME-WISE] with Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, which is 1000-yrs earlier than the GWTj I just mentioned; see again 20:5).

Hope that helps answer the Q you had (even though it was "general"/vague in nature).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 John 5 -

9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son.

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life.

13 I have written these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have [present indicative] eternal life.




[John 5:24 - "24 Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me, he has [present indicative] eternal life and does not come into judgment, but-rather has passed [perfect INDICATIVE ] out of death into life."]

 

[Noose]

If you are talking about "the Church which is His body," then THIS (below); but if not, then a different passage than THIS ONE (I just can't tell "who" your question is pertaining to exactly... coz you're being rather general in stating it) ; THIS CONTEXT pertains to "the Church which is His body" :

2 Corinthians 5 [hcsb] -

9 Therefore, whether we are at home or away [<--see context preceding], we make it our aim to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the tribunal [bematos] of Christ, so that each may be repaid for what he has done in [/through/by means of] the body, whether good or worthless.

11 Therefore, because we know the fear of the Lord, we seek to persuade [G3982] people. We are completely open before God, and I hope we are completely open to your consciences as well. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again, but giving you an opportunity to be proud of us, so that you may have a reply for those who take pride in the outward appearance rather than in the heart. 13 For if we are out of our mind, it is for God; if we have a sound mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: If One died for all, then all died. 15 And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised.

The Ministry of Reconciliation

16 From now on, then, we do not know anyone in a purely human way. Even if we have known Christ in a purely human way, yet now we no longer know Him in this way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come. 18 Everything is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through [/by means of] Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.” 21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


____________

[note: the ABOVE ^ passage is with regard to "REWARD" not "to obtain SALVATION"]

There are something like 7 (?) or so "judgments" in Scripture... if you are talking about "the DEAD [/unsaved]" (of all times) then THAT [context] is at an entirely DISTINCT/DIFFERENT "judgment" from that of the one shown above ^ ... and would instead be at the "Great White throne" judgment (Rev20:11-15, which is the same as the SECOND of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]; whereas the FIRST of these TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] PARALLEL [TIME-WISE] with Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, which is 1000-yrs earlier than the GWTj I just mentioned; see again 20:5).

Hope that helps answer the Q you had (even though it was "general"/vague in nature).

Doesn't matter whether one is a member of the church or not, sheep will be separated from goats but on what basis? Is it according to what men have done or what they thought?!

Now that you don't want to answer, i'll go ahead and answer it myself.

Judgement is according to what man has done (works). I'm yet to come across a passage that talks of judgement of men by their persuasion or what they thought. If you have any, please share but many many many verses talk of judgement by deeds (works), from the OT to Revelation. The following are just a few:

Job 34:11For according to a man's deeds, He repays him; according to a man's ways, He brings consequences.

Ecc 12:14For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.

Rom 2:6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger

Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Q. How is it (according to you) that salvation is by a man's persuasion (thoughts) but judgement is by a man's works (deeds)?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Doesn't matter whether one is a member of the church or not, sheep will be separated from goats but on what basis? Is it according to what men have done or what they thought?!

The "Sheep and goat judgment [/separation] [of the nations/Gentiles]" concerns those [of the nations] having come THROUGH the trib years [the "specific, limited, future 'time period' leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth" which I mentioned earlier], in their "MORTAL / STILL-LIVING" bodies... So, at that time, those who aided/helped "the least of these My brethren" [v.40; i.e. the believing remnant of Israel having come to faith IN/DURING the trib (FOLLOWING our Rapture), who will be the ones BRINGING the particular msg of "INVITATION" (TO the "feast/supper" / EARTHLY MK age)] those will be called "ye BLESSED" (by Jesus/the Lord); those who did NOT aid/help "the least of these My brethren" [same as I mentioned above] will be called "ye CURSED" (by Jesus/the Lord)

[these two bold/underlined phrases are reflective of what was said... elsewhere... do you recall WHERE? (hint: "21b until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age " [i.e. the OT prophecies (distinct from that which He had theretofore not yet disclosed)])]


"The Sheep and goat judgment [of the nations]" is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being judged as to whether or not they might have "earned salvation" and "entrance INTO HEAVEN"... that is to grossly misunderstand and misapply this passage (don't feel too bad, many people do this [meaning, misunderstand and misapply this passage and its context/purpose/meaning])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (for clarity): "those who aided/helped them will be called "ye BLESSED" (by Jesus/the Lord)" [etc]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Now that you don't want to answer, i'll go ahead and answer it myself.
[…]
Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Consider that the above-mentioned verse is set in the context of His "RETURN" to the earth (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel]) … [NOT at "our Rapture," per context]; and


then consider the following two verses:

Isaiah 40:10 -

"Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and His arm establishes His rule. His reward is with Him, and His recompense [/'His work'] accompanies Him."

https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/40-10.htm


Isaiah 62:11 -

"Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the ends of the earth, “Say to Daughter Zion: See, your Savior comes! Look, His reward is with Him, and His recompense [/'His work'] goes before [the face of] Him.”

https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/62-11.htm


["For we [the Church which is His body'] are His workmanship [/poiema - G4161], having been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

["For we [the Church which is His body'] are His workmanship [/poiema - G4161], having been created IN Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (for clarity): "those who aided/helped them will be called "ye BLESSED" (by Jesus/the Lord)" [etc]

For clarity: Neither "the Sheep / goats [of the nations/Gentiles]" [who are being separated in that context] NOR "the least of these My brethren" [v.40; who are NOT the ones being judged/separated in that context] of this Matthew 25:31-34 CONTEXT [and surrounding] are speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / us. Neither. None. Nada. It ain't about us, there.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Doesn't matter whether one is a member of the church or not, sheep will be separated from goats but on what basis? Is it according to what men have done or what they thought?!

Now that you don't want to answer, i'll go ahead and answer it myself.

Judgement is according to what man has done (works). I'm yet to come across a passage that talks of judgement of men by their persuasion or what they thought. If you have any, please share but many many many verses talk of judgement by deeds (works), from the OT to Revelation. The following are just a few:

Job 34:11For according to a man's deeds, He repays him; according to a man's ways, He brings consequences.

Ecc 12:14For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.

Rom 2:6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger

Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Q. How is it (according to you) that salvation is by a man's persuasion (thoughts) but judgement is by a man's works (deeds)?

He will give to everyone according to his conduct and as his deeds deserve. That's why we needed a superior covenant by which we could be born again. No longer a set of rules but a new nature within us: a new man we put on, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
We will all be made manifest before the judgement seat of Christ that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or evil.
Knowing, therefore, the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men.
Could that be why the Christian church seems unable to persuade men anymore? Growing up, false grace stripped me of the Fear of the Lord. My pastors in Christianity repeated what Jesus condemned the Jewish leadership of His day for doing: they took away the key to knowledge, which is found in Isaiah 33:6 - the Fear of the Lord.
I grew up with good buddy Jesus Savior (antichrist). I was trained to ignore what happened to Ananias and Sapphira b/c it didn't line up with false doctrine.
We could only read the Bibly through the lens of doctrinal prejudice, a folly that is flourishes today. But God makes His covenant known to those who fear Him. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[to elaborate on that ^ (meaning, on my previous post, above)]

[quoting a paragraph from a post I made awhile back, regarding this "BLESSED" issue (per contexts)]

"--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels+ [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot ["Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"]--referring to "still-living" persons, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]" [not at "our Rapture," per contexts]

[end quoting that post]

____________

"BLESSED" -

[re: the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (per Rev19) (NOT at "our Rapture")] -

--Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [the 'still-living' person/saints at end of trib, who will enter the MK age in their mortal bodies]

--Matthew 24:46 [Olivet Discourse] "BLESSED is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

--Matthew 25:34 [Olivet Discourse] "[when...] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from [G575 - apo; not "BEFORE G4253 - pro" as is used of others elsewhere] the foundation of the world"

--Luke 12:37 [36-37,38,40,42-44 'when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as "ALREADY-WED") THEN the meal] "BLESSED are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [the meal], and will come forth and serve them."

--Luke 12:38 [same as above] "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch [the "NIGHT" watches], and find them so, BLESSED are those servants."

--Luke 12:43 [same as above] "BLESSED is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

--Revelation 16:15-16 [timing: Armageddon] "Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

--Revelation 19:9 [distinct from 19:7 re: "the MARRIAGE" itself (re: the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), by contrast] "BLESSED are all those [plural] having been INVITED to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" [i.e. the earthly MK]

--[see also passages like Mk11:10 "BLESSED be the kingdom of our father David" (i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY kingdom) ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lemme "break it down" for ya then.
[…]
Which is what Christ is inferring here:
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:32's context is speaking also what of it says in vv.22-23, "22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name; but the one having endured to the end, he will be saved [<--same as in Matt24:13/Mk13:13]. 23 And whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."



note: ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/come/etc" are in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [NOT "our Rapture"]

note: the use of the "propleptic 'you'" means (basically) "[all] those in the future, of the same category [and relative to the context]"... so that THIS context is speaking (when saying 'you') NOT of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [we are not awaiting a future set of yrs for persecution! ] ) but "the believing [remnant] OF ISRAEL" (those of Israel who WILL HAVE come to faith IN/WITHIN the future tribulation period [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])... it is THEY who will be "going over the cities of Israel" (for a specific purpose) and in anticipation of when "the Son of man comes" (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom; aka [they are] "the least [G1646, "used as equivalent to mikron" (found in Matt10:42!)] of these My brethren" Matt25:40,45 who will be being GRAVELY PERSECUTED "for My name's sake" DURING that specific future time period [we commonly call the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk])