Bible Doctrines

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#21
Lucifer was an annointed cherub, different than an angel. Both are created beings but for different purposes.

Bonus...angels don’t have wings and are always male.🤓
Satan is almost certainly a type of Angel. Strongs Def. for Cherub:
kerub: probably an order of angelic beings
Original Word: כְּרוּב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kerub
Phonetic Spelling: (ker-oob')
Definition: probably an order of angelic beings

2 Corinthians 11:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Also, if satan is a type of angel, the description we have of other cherubs is that they have wings.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,171
3,699
113
#23
Satan is almost certainly a type of Angel. Strongs Def. for Cherub:
kerub: probably an order of angelic beings
Original Word: כְּרוּב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kerub
Phonetic Spelling: (ker-oob')
Definition: probably an order of angelic beings

2 Corinthians 11:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Also, if satan is a type of angel, the description we have of other cherubs is that they have wings.
He has to transform himself. He is not an angel. Just sticking with the Bible, there are many types of sons of God including angels, cherubims, seraphims, etc..they’re all different and serve different purposes.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#24
He has to transform himself. He is not an angel. Just sticking with the Bible, there are many types of sons of God including angels, cherubims, seraphims, etc..they’re all different and serve different purposes.
They are ranks of angels yes, and even different types. That doesn't mean they aren't angels.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#26
Is that scriptural or man made doctrine?

You have the same Scriptures as me. I already showed you where the word Cherub very likely means an order of angelic beings. Virtually ALL prominent commentators throughout history note that satan is a type of angel.

You want me say that it's conceivable that satan is NOT a type of angel? Sure it's conceivable. But unlikely that he is not.

Now how bout YOU retract that it is definitive that he is not an angel?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,171
3,699
113
#27
You have the same Scriptures as me. I already showed you where the word Cherub very likely means an order of angelic beings. Virtually ALL prominent commentators throughout history note that satan is a type of angel.

You want me say that it's conceivable that satan is NOT a type of angel? Sure it's conceivable. But unlikely that he is not.

Now how bout YOU retract that it is definitive that he is not an angel?
You’ve posted Scripture? One verse stating Satan transforms himself into an angel of light doesn’t prove anything but that Satan has to transform himself because he’s not an angel.

And you know I couldn’t care less about “prominent commentators,” their thoughts on Scripture. I’ll stick with the words of God.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#28
You’ve posted Scripture? One verse stating Satan transforms himself into an angel of light doesn’t prove anything but that Satan has to transform himself because he’s not an angel.
Nope. Gave you the definition of what a Cherub was.

Why did you ignore that?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,171
3,699
113
#29
Nope. Gave you the definition of what a Cherub was.

Why did you ignore that?
I know what a cherub is and his duties to cover and oversee. Yes, they have wings. They are sons of God. They are not angels according to Scripture.

Winged angels on Christmas trees is false.😉
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#30
I know what a cherub is and his duties to cover and oversee. Yes, they have wings. They are sons of God. They are not angels according to Scripture.

Winged angels on Christmas trees is false.😉
YOU, say they are not angelic beings. The Bible doesn't say that.

I gave you the definition FROM Hebrew. Just because you reject it doesn't mean it isn't true.
You are this stubborn as to not even give the possibility that Cherubim are angelic beings?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
113
#31
Well then... how many cherubs can dance on the head of a pin?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,171
3,699
113
#32
YOU, say they are not angelic beings. The Bible doesn't say that.

I gave you the definition FROM Hebrew. Just because you reject it doesn't mean it isn't true.
You are this stubborn as to not even give the possibility that Cherubim are angelic beings?
What we do know from Scripture is that angels, cherubims and seraphims are all sons of God. Notice it doesn’t say, and all the angels...

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#33
What we do know from Scripture is that angels, cherubims and seraphims are all sons of God. Notice it doesn’t say, and all the angels...

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
What's that got to do with the definition of Cherub in Hebrew,

You DO realize that the Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, NOT KJV English don't you?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,171
3,699
113
#34
What's that got to do with the definition of Cherub in Hebrew,

You DO realize that the Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, NOT KJV English don't you?
Yeah, I’ll go with probably...

I’m done discussing this brother. It’s not worth it, ok?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#36
Really they don't? Where can I read on this?
They are ministering spirit. Spirits of truth sent (as if by wings) to strengthen those in order to finish the unseen work of God. They have no flesh, no outward form as word or tongue of God having the power of life or death . They can move a person to action. Or work out the request.

We can see that work of two working as one. The father pouring out the wrath as suffering to the soul of the Son unto death submitting and crying out for strength .Three times they performed that work to show how the unseen messengers work strengthening inner man .

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

The father sent the spirits of truth, as unseen messengers. . angels

One thing because the doctrines of men differ from the doctrines of God. It would seem important as to how we can know or hear the differences.? What kind of prescription do we have so we can we follow and know they are inspired of God and not men earthly ?


We can as a blessing search that out in Deuteronomy..

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#37
Not sure where you stand with your familiarity with the Bible itself, but that would be your foundation (sorry, I assumed that you were somewhat already versed in it).
That has to be your starting point, because all other discussions are derived from, and based on this one source.
The topic of Christology & Soteriology would not exist if it weren't for the Bible.
Familiarize yourself with the Bible, then see who's views correspond to what you've read and understood, from both it and life itself.
This is the process that we're all going through, ...and yes, you're right, it does get confusing and leads to indecisiveness at times.
None of us here have our whole theology worked out with complete comprehensiveness, soundness and cohesiveness.
If you decide to take up the Bible, which I profoundly hope that you do, it will be, without exception, a life-long endeavor...as it is meant to be!
Good luck!
Yes, I suppose it is a life long endeavor, especially eternity. I think we'll still be learning then.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#38
They are ministering spirit. Spirits of truth sent (as if by wings) to strengthen those in order to finish the unseen work of God. They have no flesh, no outward form as word or tongue of God having the power of life or death . They can move a person to action. Or work out the request.

We can see that work of two working as one. The father pouring out the wrath as suffering to the soul of the Son unto death submitting and crying out for strength .Three times they performed that work to show how the unseen messengers work strengthening inner man .

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

The father sent the spirits of truth, as unseen messengers. . angels

One thing because the doctrines of men differ from the doctrines of God. It would seem important as to how we can know or hear the differences.? What kind of prescription do we have so we can we follow and know they are inspired of God and not men earthly ?

We can as a blessing search that out in Deuteronomy..

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Yes, I've read that angels are ministering spirits, never really considered much about their composition or that cherubs were not angels, idk. I will look into it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#39
...or that cherubs were not angels...
Whoever told you that the Cherubim (singular Cherub) were not angels misled you.

They are a very special class of angels, since it is their privilege to always surround the throne of God and praise Him.

Among the angelic beings there are (a) Cherubim, (b) Seraphim, (c) archangels, (c) holy angels, (d) evil angels, and (f) demons. And in both the classes of angels (holy and evil) there are hierarchies of authority. Michael is the archangel who is over all the holy angels, and Satan (formerly Lucifer) is the prince or king of the evil angels and devils (or demons). And there are in fact huge numbers of angels in both groups.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,171
3,699
113
#40
Whoever told you that the Cherubim (singular Cherub) were not angels misled you.

They are a very special class of angels, since it is their privilege to always surround the throne of God and praise Him.

Among the angelic beings there are (a) Cherubim, (b) Seraphim, (c) archangels, (c) holy angels, (d) evil angels, and (f) demons. And in both the classes of angels (holy and evil) there are hierarchies of authority. Michael is the archangel who is over all the holy angels, and Satan (formerly Lucifer) is the prince or king of the evil angels and devils (or demons). And there are in fact huge numbers of angels in both groups.
Where do you find that cherubs are angels? You have to go outside Scripture to argue this. They are all sons of God, but all angels? I’m not seeing it in Scripture.