The need for spiritual gifts
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A "talent" (in the modern sense) is something that is inherent to the individual, and exists whether or not the person believes in Jesus. It can be ignored, stifled, abused, or developed. A person with a particular talent will learn more quickly and easily in that area, and likely develop a higher degree of expertise than another untalented person who puts in similar effort. A "gift" (in the biblical sense) is something that is only given to a believer in Jesus and is not inherent, because it is simply not available to the unbeliever. A gift can be ignored, stifled, abused, and recognized to an increasing degree, but not truly "developed". You might learn to recognize when the Spirit is speaking to or through you, but you don't get "better" in the same way that you could get "better" at singing or drawing.
Exactly... and wanted recorded. Where is it stated in Scripture that God wanted every word of His recorded?
Hogwash. You have no evidence for that assertion; you're just spouting irrelevant (and insulting) blather.
*Yawn* Drop it already.
Where is that in Scripture?
More irrelevant blather.
Please go a learn how to construct a coherent sentence.
Hogwash. You have no evidence for that assertion; you're just spouting irrelevant (and insulting) blather.
*Yawn* Drop it already.
Where is that in Scripture?
More irrelevant blather.
Please go a learn how to construct a coherent sentence.
That does not seem to be the case. You reject certain gifts of the spirit and you are obviously confused. There was a website that would generate IT publications as a gag. You type in a few details and it generates a bunch of techno-garble. I did it to check out the website. It was a joke. I heard some academic put the paper it generated down as a publication on his references.
Your posts seem a little like that website-- recycled religious phrases turned into statements--sometimes. Many of your statements actually contradict scripture. We point it out, yet you keep repeating them, like some kind of robot putting together religious phrases that do not make sense.
I want you to consider another possibility. Maybe you do not have some great special mystical insight to allegorically interpret scripture by the leading of the Spirit that is only given to cessationists who do not believe that the Holy Spirit does not give revelation today. That seems a lot more likely considering some of your ideas. One theme in recent posts is that spiritual gifts are 'unseen.' Since the topic of spiritual gifts includes teaching, prophesying, healing and miracles-- no matter what either of us believes about time periods-- and scripture calls some of them 'manifestations of the Spirit' your assertion is clearly false.
If someone teaches, I can see him teach. If someone prophesies, or if a first century Christian saw Agabus or Silas prophesy, he could see the one prophesying prophesy. It is possible to literally and physically see some spiritual gifts in operation. Surely you do not think the gift of teaching has ceased, do you? How about helps or service? Do you think people who operate in these gifts turn invisible when they help and serve?
They can also be misunderstood by those who do not understand them. Rejecting the work of the Spirit is not a good foundation for understanding spiritual things.
After Paul wrote not to go beyond what is written (in regard to him, Apollos, etc.), he wrote an epistle encouraging his readers to prophesy and share revelations in church. Clearly he did not mean the same thing by 'go beyond what is written' that you do.
. And Barnabas and Saul were sent out by the Holy Ghost.
Your posts seem a little like that website-- recycled religious phrases turned into statements--sometimes. Many of your statements actually contradict scripture. We point it out, yet you keep repeating them, like some kind of robot putting together religious phrases that do not make sense.
I want you to consider another possibility. Maybe you do not have some great special mystical insight to allegorically interpret scripture by the leading of the Spirit that is only given to cessationists who do not believe that the Holy Spirit does not give revelation today. That seems a lot more likely considering some of your ideas. One theme in recent posts is that spiritual gifts are 'unseen.' Since the topic of spiritual gifts includes teaching, prophesying, healing and miracles-- no matter what either of us believes about time periods-- and scripture calls some of them 'manifestations of the Spirit' your assertion is clearly false.
If someone teaches, I can see him teach. If someone prophesies, or if a first century Christian saw Agabus or Silas prophesy, he could see the one prophesying prophesy. It is possible to literally and physically see some spiritual gifts in operation. Surely you do not think the gift of teaching has ceased, do you? How about helps or service? Do you think people who operate in these gifts turn invisible when they help and serve?
They can also be misunderstood by those who do not understand them. Rejecting the work of the Spirit is not a good foundation for understanding spiritual things.
After Paul wrote not to go beyond what is written (in regard to him, Apollos, etc.), he wrote an epistle encouraging his readers to prophesy and share revelations in church. Clearly he did not mean the same thing by 'go beyond what is written' that you do.
. And Barnabas and Saul were sent out by the Holy Ghost.
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I am talking about miracles in the Bible sense, not a baby being born. I do not see where the Bible calls God showing long suffering a miracle, as wonderful as that is.
The Old Testament says that God will send man a vision of the night to warn him. Pharoah, a Midianite, and Nebucadnezzer all received revelatory dreams. God said that He would speak through prophets in dreams. But through Jeremiah, he warned about false prophets telling about dreams, also. We now live in the last days. Joel, who Peter quoted, said in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh and 'your old men will dream dreams.'
So there is no warning about all dreams being evil in the Bible. The only possible reference to an out of body experience I know of is where Paul wrote to the Corinthians about a man going up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body he could not tell. Many believe based on the context that he is referring to himself there.
Paul indicated that bearing false witness of God is a bad thing. Where is it written that God warned about out of the body or near death experiences? By 'He' do you mean God? If God never actually warned about that, you should not claim that He did. If He did, please show me. We can apply other principles of scripture to such claims, but you should not make claims about God saying things He did not. It is ironic if you are opposed to prophesying and make such claims yourself.
The Bible says a strong delusion to believe a lie, not that sentence you wrote above. You should be careful not to add to the teaching of scripture things that it does not say.
Paul did miracles that people could witness with their eyes.
Acts 14
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
Does the fact that Paul did miracles that people could see mean that he was walking by sight? No.
Here is another example of a miracle that Paul did that someone (another Paul) could see.
Acts 13
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
Sergius Paulus saw this miracle and believed. Was he walking by faith or by sight after he saw this? The Bible says he believed. The verse 'for we walk by faith, and not by sight' is not meant as a polemic against the types of miracles that the apostles did.
But I have pointed this out to you years ago, when I posted to you. And yet you seem to be dull of understanding on this topic, generating sentences (sometimes) made of badly applied religious phrases into the online paper-generating app continuously.
This is some messed up interpretation. You take Jesus' words to the Devil during his temtpation as judgment on 'signs as wonders seekers'. That is a very odd way of reading the passage. Didn't you learn any deeper lessons than that?
It is hard to follow your line of reasoning from your string of half-thoughts here. The apostles performed miracles. Jesus performed miracles. There is no justification for labelling them as self righteous. Miracles can also edify other people. Jesus fed people when He fed the 4000 and 5000. He may have eaten, but they did, too.
Jesus was not evil for doing signs and wonders, either.
So you quote a verse that disproves your perspective. If they saw signs and wonders and beleived, that is a good thing. Jesus did a miracle in this passage. The man he said these words saw his son healed. He heard that his son had been healed when Jesus spoke the word, and he and his house believed. The passage you quote does not support the ideas that you ..... seem to be... saying.
The Old Testament says that God will send man a vision of the night to warn him. Pharoah, a Midianite, and Nebucadnezzer all received revelatory dreams. God said that He would speak through prophets in dreams. But through Jeremiah, he warned about false prophets telling about dreams, also. We now live in the last days. Joel, who Peter quoted, said in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh and 'your old men will dream dreams.'
So there is no warning about all dreams being evil in the Bible. The only possible reference to an out of body experience I know of is where Paul wrote to the Corinthians about a man going up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body he could not tell. Many believe based on the context that he is referring to himself there.
Paul indicated that bearing false witness of God is a bad thing. Where is it written that God warned about out of the body or near death experiences? By 'He' do you mean God? If God never actually warned about that, you should not claim that He did. If He did, please show me. We can apply other principles of scripture to such claims, but you should not make claims about God saying things He did not. It is ironic if you are opposed to prophesying and make such claims yourself.
The Bible says a strong delusion to believe a lie, not that sentence you wrote above. You should be careful not to add to the teaching of scripture things that it does not say.
Paul did miracles that people could witness with their eyes.
Acts 14
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
Does the fact that Paul did miracles that people could see mean that he was walking by sight? No.
Here is another example of a miracle that Paul did that someone (another Paul) could see.
Acts 13
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
Sergius Paulus saw this miracle and believed. Was he walking by faith or by sight after he saw this? The Bible says he believed. The verse 'for we walk by faith, and not by sight' is not meant as a polemic against the types of miracles that the apostles did.
But I have pointed this out to you years ago, when I posted to you. And yet you seem to be dull of understanding on this topic, generating sentences (sometimes) made of badly applied religious phrases into the online paper-generating app continuously.
This is some messed up interpretation. You take Jesus' words to the Devil during his temtpation as judgment on 'signs as wonders seekers'. That is a very odd way of reading the passage. Didn't you learn any deeper lessons than that?
It is hard to follow your line of reasoning from your string of half-thoughts here. The apostles performed miracles. Jesus performed miracles. There is no justification for labelling them as self righteous. Miracles can also edify other people. Jesus fed people when He fed the 4000 and 5000. He may have eaten, but they did, too.
Jesus was not evil for doing signs and wonders, either.
So you quote a verse that disproves your perspective. If they saw signs and wonders and beleived, that is a good thing. Jesus did a miracle in this passage. The man he said these words saw his son healed. He heard that his son had been healed when Jesus spoke the word, and he and his house believed. The passage you quote does not support the ideas that you ..... seem to be... saying.
The man saw his son healed. You keep posting weird statements like this. Why don't you read the verses around the ones you quote.... or even the verses you quote? Do you read and not understand what the words say? Why don't you interact with other posters who show you from scripture that your theories are unbiblical, or comment on these scriptures? Why keep up with the religious-phrase-bot routine? It's really weird and it doesn't help anyone. I don't even know that it influences anyone.
The man literally walked on his legs. He might have come to faith, too, and began his walk of faith. But we can know for sure from scripture that he walked on his feet.
Your definition of apostle does not even line up with the literal meaning of the word. I've seen people who seemed to think they were called to defend the gospel who did not do a very good job of it. There is more to the word than you describe, since Jesus sent out the 12 and Saul. And the Holy Spirit sent out Barnabas and Saul.
The man literally walked on his legs. He might have come to faith, too, and began his walk of faith. But we can know for sure from scripture that he walked on his feet.
Your definition of apostle does not even line up with the literal meaning of the word. I've seen people who seemed to think they were called to defend the gospel who did not do a very good job of it. There is more to the word than you describe, since Jesus sent out the 12 and Saul. And the Holy Spirit sent out Barnabas and Saul.
Peter quotes promises to Israel about the outpouring of the Spirit, scriptures from Joel 2 quoted in Acts 2. But then he says that the promise is also for them that are afar off (notice how Paul later describes the Gentiles as afar off.) The Spirit was also poured out on Cornelius' household. I Corinthians 12, which lists gifts in the church, addresses readers telling them they were led about by dumb idols, which seems to describe the Gentile members of the church better than the Israelis. There is no reason to think Israel will operate in gifts but not the Gentile believers who are grafted in.
You also refuse to deal with the facts when it comes to I Corinthians 13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Paul's understanding when he wrote this scripture was like a child's in comparison to what his understanding would be like when the perfect came. His current understanding was 'in part'. It was like seeing through a glass darkly (or in a dark mirror.) He could not see the clear picture. This was the state for all the author's of scripture, who had revelation of the mysteries.
When we read the scriptures, we can hope to attain to the same knowledge the apostles who wrote them had.
Ephesians 3
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
It is not realistic to think that we gain such knowledge that Paul's knowledge become's like a child's. Yet that is the conclusion that your interpretation of I Corinthians leads to-- that Paul had a child's understanding, and we who have the scriptures have the adult understanding.
Jude 3 says, "that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. " The saints already had the faith before the scriptures were written. We have received a written record of it-- not something that far exceeds apostolic understanding by light years. We have received the same doctrine and live in the same spiritual time period as the apostles. We have not been resurrected yet. Jesus has not yet returned.
Here is a quote from Martin Lloyd Jones on the topic from Grudem's Systematic Theology:
"It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God's truth.... It means that we are altogether superior... even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which... 'we know, even as also we are known' by God... indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense." "
Btw, for what it's worth in John Calvin's commentary on I Corinthians, he also called your interpretation stupid.
It is typical of your posts to throw in some unfounded judgy accusation at the end. Me accepting Biblical teaching on spiritual gifts is accepting a means of growth. Rejecting them is a way of rejecting growth opportunities.
You also refuse to deal with the facts when it comes to I Corinthians 13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Paul's understanding when he wrote this scripture was like a child's in comparison to what his understanding would be like when the perfect came. His current understanding was 'in part'. It was like seeing through a glass darkly (or in a dark mirror.) He could not see the clear picture. This was the state for all the author's of scripture, who had revelation of the mysteries.
When we read the scriptures, we can hope to attain to the same knowledge the apostles who wrote them had.
Ephesians 3
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
It is not realistic to think that we gain such knowledge that Paul's knowledge become's like a child's. Yet that is the conclusion that your interpretation of I Corinthians leads to-- that Paul had a child's understanding, and we who have the scriptures have the adult understanding.
Jude 3 says, "that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. " The saints already had the faith before the scriptures were written. We have received a written record of it-- not something that far exceeds apostolic understanding by light years. We have received the same doctrine and live in the same spiritual time period as the apostles. We have not been resurrected yet. Jesus has not yet returned.
Here is a quote from Martin Lloyd Jones on the topic from Grudem's Systematic Theology:
"It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God's truth.... It means that we are altogether superior... even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which... 'we know, even as also we are known' by God... indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense." "
Btw, for what it's worth in John Calvin's commentary on I Corinthians, he also called your interpretation stupid.
It is typical of your posts to throw in some unfounded judgy accusation at the end. Me accepting Biblical teaching on spiritual gifts is accepting a means of growth. Rejecting them is a way of rejecting growth opportunities.
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Jesus taught he parable of the seed sown on the ground that is over come with weeds. Such is the mindset of Pentecostalism. You cannot achieve fruitfulness encumbered with Pentecostalism. At one time holiness was a characteristic of Pentecostals but no longer.
Martin Lloyd Jones is in the minority. We do have a superior view of scripture because the apostles have passed away. We do not have tongues, prophecy and knowledge because we have the completed scriptures. The apostles had no completed NT but they preached Christ from first hand accounts and the OT scriptures. Yes we do have superior knowledge and the scripture compels us to see ourselves as God sees us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Martin Lloyd Jones is in the minority. We do have a superior view of scripture because the apostles have passed away. We do not have tongues, prophecy and knowledge because we have the completed scriptures. The apostles had no completed NT but they preached Christ from first hand accounts and the OT scriptures. Yes we do have superior knowledge and the scripture compels us to see ourselves as God sees us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Miracles are simply miracles, nothing more and nothing less .God is God nothing less.
Not a baby being born the first time but babies being born again . . double blessings
God who is not served by human hands, as a God with no needs but satisfies all needs. . Needing nothing from the clay or beast of the field to lend a hand. The moment he saw pride in the heart of the creation he could of destroyed mankind forever .But rather gave them ample time to seek after Him who has no form . As time went on reducing the eligibility to 70 years.
That long suffering. . the first work of the love of God as that which miraculously works in us, The second work is God' Love is kind. Without longsuffering there can be no kindness . . just judgment without mercy. His long mercy endures forever to those he has given a new born again spirit that will rise on the last day .
Not a baby being born the first time but babies being born again . . double blessings
God who is not served by human hands, as a God with no needs but satisfies all needs. . Needing nothing from the clay or beast of the field to lend a hand. The moment he saw pride in the heart of the creation he could of destroyed mankind forever .But rather gave them ample time to seek after Him who has no form . As time went on reducing the eligibility to 70 years.
That long suffering. . the first work of the love of God as that which miraculously works in us, The second work is God' Love is kind. Without longsuffering there can be no kindness . . just judgment without mercy. His long mercy endures forever to those he has given a new born again spirit that will rise on the last day .
It would seem you are not mixing faith in what you do see or hear. These are not everyday dreams and they were not given to a believer to begin with .God was simply protecting his own seed the incorruptible.
Yes in the last days up until the last new revelation with John was recorded then men women from all nations were part of the kingdom of priest after our High Priest Christ. Today warning us beforehand ( the last revelation that ends with a warning) We are lovingly commanded not to be deceived and receive the strong delusions of those who seek after another Christ, another gospel .
2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
The father of lies' false wonders as source of amazement opportunity is still open just go above that which is written and create another kind of gospel not subject sola scriptura the reforming , restoring authority in any generation.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mathew 24:21-26
Yes in the last days up until the last new revelation with John was recorded then men women from all nations were part of the kingdom of priest after our High Priest Christ. Today warning us beforehand ( the last revelation that ends with a warning) We are lovingly commanded not to be deceived and receive the strong delusions of those who seek after another Christ, another gospel .
2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
The father of lies' false wonders as source of amazement opportunity is still open just go above that which is written and create another kind of gospel not subject sola scriptura the reforming , restoring authority in any generation.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mathew 24:21-26
I do not believe we should divide over who are leaders are or over denominational or theological labels. Cessationism is theological error that can lead to disobedience to scripture. It can be hard for a cessationist not to despise prophesyings when he hears it.
Minority of what? Christians? Cessationists? I would be surprised if the majority of cessaionists held to your view of I Corinthians 13, certainly not among those who are considered to be scholars, theologians, etc. Your presenting a backwoodsy ill thought out prooftext. You can find a few scholars who held to this ill-thought-out point like Edwards, but not too many, especially when they have considered the ideas against it.
Your posts on this issue are evidence that you do not understand the scriptures Paul wrote better than Paul did himself. He wrote in I Corinthians 1:7, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Sometimes, in Paul's letters, he will make a comment that is expanded on in greater detail later in the epistle. In I Corinthians 1:7, he makes this comment about gifts-- before he wrote the rest of the epistle and instructions on tongues and prophecy. Surely he knew that the Corinthians had issues with these gifts and needed instruction when he brought up the issue in I Corinthians 1:7. And he did not anticipate that they should lack for spiritual gifts between now and the return of Christ, which we still wait for.
We also see that Paul was referring to something in his future when he wrote of the perfect coming. He continues in his epistle to discuss the resurrection and the transformation of our bodies at the return of Christ. This would precede the end (telos) when Christ would deliver up the kingdom to God.
Thematically, the idea that Paul sets the time of 'knowing fully' as occuring at the time of the future events he would describe later this epistle-- the resurrection at the return of Christ or the subsequent delivering up of the kingdm to God-- makes sense. There is nothing in the book or his other writings that would lead us to believe that he is talking about a completed canon of scripture. That's called eisegesis.
If Christians had perfect knowledge, they would not disagree over this issue. If cessationists had perfect knowledge, they would not disagree over this issue. It seems rare for a cessatonist to agree with you on this. Even John MacArthur who held a coference promoting Strange Fire believes the perfect refers to the eternal state.
Minority of what? Christians? Cessationists? I would be surprised if the majority of cessaionists held to your view of I Corinthians 13, certainly not among those who are considered to be scholars, theologians, etc. Your presenting a backwoodsy ill thought out prooftext. You can find a few scholars who held to this ill-thought-out point like Edwards, but not too many, especially when they have considered the ideas against it.
Your posts on this issue are evidence that you do not understand the scriptures Paul wrote better than Paul did himself. He wrote in I Corinthians 1:7, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Sometimes, in Paul's letters, he will make a comment that is expanded on in greater detail later in the epistle. In I Corinthians 1:7, he makes this comment about gifts-- before he wrote the rest of the epistle and instructions on tongues and prophecy. Surely he knew that the Corinthians had issues with these gifts and needed instruction when he brought up the issue in I Corinthians 1:7. And he did not anticipate that they should lack for spiritual gifts between now and the return of Christ, which we still wait for.
We also see that Paul was referring to something in his future when he wrote of the perfect coming. He continues in his epistle to discuss the resurrection and the transformation of our bodies at the return of Christ. This would precede the end (telos) when Christ would deliver up the kingdom to God.
Thematically, the idea that Paul sets the time of 'knowing fully' as occuring at the time of the future events he would describe later this epistle-- the resurrection at the return of Christ or the subsequent delivering up of the kingdm to God-- makes sense. There is nothing in the book or his other writings that would lead us to believe that he is talking about a completed canon of scripture. That's called eisegesis.
If Christians had perfect knowledge, they would not disagree over this issue. If cessationists had perfect knowledge, they would not disagree over this issue. It seems rare for a cessatonist to agree with you on this. Even John MacArthur who held a coference promoting Strange Fire believes the perfect refers to the eternal state.
And yet the cessationist (which Roger wholeheartedly is) still prays for them!
If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.
If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.
I wouldnt argue with cessationists even if you are speaking in tongues right in front of them they still wont believe it comes from God, who made langauge. Its like saying God made me but the other person saying you got to be joking you came from a test tube. You made yourself.
They just dont wanna believe.
They just dont wanna believe.
That is one way to define invisible or spiritual gifts. I would see that a little differently.
Not remove God's influence from His living abiding Spirit not seen and put it in the hands of temporal men seen. We have that treasure as the power of God in us not of us. It can work in us if we abide with Him.
When that kind of ideal came in Acts 14 . The person hearing the gospel. . the words God put on Paul's lips. In the twinkling of the eye the one who could not literally walk or spiritually walk (understand). He was strengthen by the power of the gospel moved by faith followed the leading of the Spirit that worked in him .Get up follow that Spirit as it is written. The working of the gospel, working in his new mind and strengthening the body of death. . .to show the power of God .
Those who had no faith that exclusively comes from hearing God attributed the work of God not seen. . to the hands of the apostles saying. . . the gods are coming down to us in the likeness of men .Having no idea what the likeness of God. . who is Spirit is.
The apostles cried out blasphemy . The gospel is the power of God unto salavation. God is not served with human hands as if he needed anything. We decrease he increases.
And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Acts 14:7-12
It would seem we are warned beforehand ( before the last chapter Revelation) that new revelations would cease to be recorded . The faith base being completely established .And we walk in respect to it as it is written .not adding or subtracting the warning at the end of the book of prophecy . The perfect . Unlike the warning used to maintain the integrity of the author in regard to one word found in Deuteronomy 4:2 . Change the meaning of one word it can change the direction of the commandments.
Not remove God's influence from His living abiding Spirit not seen and put it in the hands of temporal men seen. We have that treasure as the power of God in us not of us. It can work in us if we abide with Him.
When that kind of ideal came in Acts 14 . The person hearing the gospel. . the words God put on Paul's lips. In the twinkling of the eye the one who could not literally walk or spiritually walk (understand). He was strengthen by the power of the gospel moved by faith followed the leading of the Spirit that worked in him .Get up follow that Spirit as it is written. The working of the gospel, working in his new mind and strengthening the body of death. . .to show the power of God .
Those who had no faith that exclusively comes from hearing God attributed the work of God not seen. . to the hands of the apostles saying. . . the gods are coming down to us in the likeness of men .Having no idea what the likeness of God. . who is Spirit is.
The apostles cried out blasphemy . The gospel is the power of God unto salavation. God is not served with human hands as if he needed anything. We decrease he increases.
And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Acts 14:7-12
It would seem we are warned beforehand ( before the last chapter Revelation) that new revelations would cease to be recorded . The faith base being completely established .And we walk in respect to it as it is written .not adding or subtracting the warning at the end of the book of prophecy . The perfect . Unlike the warning used to maintain the integrity of the author in regard to one word found in Deuteronomy 4:2 . Change the meaning of one word it can change the direction of the commandments.
I would offer we are warned beforehand that there would come a time when God would no longer move men to record his interpretation the book of His prophecy the Bible .
The reformation had come the time period of Pagan design Kings in Isreal had come to a end as great tribulation for one born again .the government restored to the period of Judges man and woman as part of the new order of Kingdom priest . no longer under the rule of the traditions of the father and kings as law of men. such a reformation as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
Behold, I have told you before.Mathew 24: 21-25
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mathew 24: 21-25
The disagreement is in what you are calling spiritual gifts as something outward seen used to confirm the idea of "sign gifts". ...self edification.
Today they could be called selfies.
We simply do not hear eternal God by looking at the things seen the temporal.
Tongues is simply prophecy understood in other languages other than the Hebrew alone. It is a sign against those who demand something seen with their eyes before they will believe. Like do a trick and then we will beleive. Showing "no faith" in the word of God, prophecy alone or what is called sola scriptura in doing so .
John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe
John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Believing or exercising a faith coming from God unseen. . . is seeing. The Jews that refused to get under the hearing of faith simply turned the binding and loosening law upside down and made it after the oral traditions of men inspired from earth .Making the word of God to no effect,
The sign of tongues (God mocking those in unbelief ) and yet for all that they still remain in unbelief holding on to the traditions of men rather than (sola scriptura)
The tell tale sign is they refuse to look to the foundation of God mocking (stammering lips) those who mock God in unbelief. No faith according to Isaiah 28. The same law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 .They must be compared one to the other.
It is like David said in the Psalms'. If a person destroys the foundation of a doctrine of God (Isaiah 28) what could those who abide in all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) do?
I would call the doctrine "yet for all that is written" they still refuse to believe God not seen (no faith)
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?( prophecy the tongue of God) them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:(sola scriptura. . no oral traditions of men) For with stammering (mocking lips) lips and another tongue (other than Hebrew) will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem Isaiah 28 .9-14
Without the foundation in Isaiah 28 we would have no law to relate to found in 1 Corinthians 14. And yet those who add to prophecy with the oral traditions of men see no evil in doing so.
In the law (Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues (gentiles) and other lips (all the nations of the world) will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corihtians 14:21-22
Why would a person purposely look to perform a sign if it shows they are mocking God? Jesus said; it is a evil generation . . natural unconverted mankind that has no faith that does alone comes from hearing prophecy .
The reformation had come the time period of Pagan design Kings in Isreal had come to a end as great tribulation for one born again .the government restored to the period of Judges man and woman as part of the new order of Kingdom priest . no longer under the rule of the traditions of the father and kings as law of men. such a reformation as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
Behold, I have told you before.Mathew 24: 21-25
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mathew 24: 21-25
The disagreement is in what you are calling spiritual gifts as something outward seen used to confirm the idea of "sign gifts". ...self edification.
Today they could be called selfies.
We simply do not hear eternal God by looking at the things seen the temporal.
Tongues is simply prophecy understood in other languages other than the Hebrew alone. It is a sign against those who demand something seen with their eyes before they will believe. Like do a trick and then we will beleive. Showing "no faith" in the word of God, prophecy alone or what is called sola scriptura in doing so .
John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe
John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Believing or exercising a faith coming from God unseen. . . is seeing. The Jews that refused to get under the hearing of faith simply turned the binding and loosening law upside down and made it after the oral traditions of men inspired from earth .Making the word of God to no effect,
The sign of tongues (God mocking those in unbelief ) and yet for all that they still remain in unbelief holding on to the traditions of men rather than (sola scriptura)
The tell tale sign is they refuse to look to the foundation of God mocking (stammering lips) those who mock God in unbelief. No faith according to Isaiah 28. The same law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 .They must be compared one to the other.
It is like David said in the Psalms'. If a person destroys the foundation of a doctrine of God (Isaiah 28) what could those who abide in all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) do?
I would call the doctrine "yet for all that is written" they still refuse to believe God not seen (no faith)
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?( prophecy the tongue of God) them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:(sola scriptura. . no oral traditions of men) For with stammering (mocking lips) lips and another tongue (other than Hebrew) will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem Isaiah 28 .9-14
Without the foundation in Isaiah 28 we would have no law to relate to found in 1 Corinthians 14. And yet those who add to prophecy with the oral traditions of men see no evil in doing so.
In the law (Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues (gentiles) and other lips (all the nations of the world) will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corihtians 14:21-22
Why would a person purposely look to perform a sign if it shows they are mocking God? Jesus said; it is a evil generation . . natural unconverted mankind that has no faith that does alone comes from hearing prophecy .
Our natural talents come from God, of course, but they are different from spiritual talents.
My denomination has roots in the Azusa Street Revival and for a few decades it operated just like the primitive church: many would speak previously unknown languages; some were given the gift of interpretation; many were miraculously cured of terminal diseases; prophets would accurately predict events, etc.
But now things are different: The "gift" of tongues today is a sequence of syllables that can even be memorized; there are absolutely no interpreters; very few are cured of terminal diseases; and prophets today "predict" things like: "someone in this congregation tonight will receive a gift from God" or "someone in here will go through hardship". People in my church still have great faith and most of them seem to live in holiness, but not one of them seems to have the gifts Paul used to talk about.
I think God gives spiritual gifts like, for example, tongues, interpretation, healing, prophecy, etc, for specific purposes and for certain periods of times. We must be always willing to receive God's gifts, but if we don't receive them we must love Him and remain faithful all the same. If we believe Jesus is the son of the living God this is enough because no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Many church leaders seem not to accept the fact that God gives His gifts only WHEN He wishes to and they go about pretending to have the gifts. This is tragic! If I were a preacher I would do my best to learn the Word of God, I would meditate on it day and night, and would keep asking Him to help me discern WHAT He wanted me to preach at each service.
My denomination has roots in the Azusa Street Revival and for a few decades it operated just like the primitive church: many would speak previously unknown languages; some were given the gift of interpretation; many were miraculously cured of terminal diseases; prophets would accurately predict events, etc.
But now things are different: The "gift" of tongues today is a sequence of syllables that can even be memorized; there are absolutely no interpreters; very few are cured of terminal diseases; and prophets today "predict" things like: "someone in this congregation tonight will receive a gift from God" or "someone in here will go through hardship". People in my church still have great faith and most of them seem to live in holiness, but not one of them seems to have the gifts Paul used to talk about.
I think God gives spiritual gifts like, for example, tongues, interpretation, healing, prophecy, etc, for specific purposes and for certain periods of times. We must be always willing to receive God's gifts, but if we don't receive them we must love Him and remain faithful all the same. If we believe Jesus is the son of the living God this is enough because no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Many church leaders seem not to accept the fact that God gives His gifts only WHEN He wishes to and they go about pretending to have the gifts. This is tragic! If I were a preacher I would do my best to learn the Word of God, I would meditate on it day and night, and would keep asking Him to help me discern WHAT He wanted me to preach at each service.
Are you asking me? I dont know never said they were.
I suppose its like minerals in the ground. Some areas have lots of mineral deposits, some dont, some are easy to extract, others you might need to work a bit harder to get to, esp of you got clay soil. But its there.
Spiritual gifts dont come from us. They arent in the ground as part of us. They come from above. They are given. You are not born with them, you are given them when the spirit comes upon you.
Example. Jesus before he was anointed for his ministry had a teaching talent. He was a natural, but when he was anointed he was given the healing gift. Its not something he already had. It was given by God for a time and a purpose. And not for himself but for Gods glory.
I suppose its like minerals in the ground. Some areas have lots of mineral deposits, some dont, some are easy to extract, others you might need to work a bit harder to get to, esp of you got clay soil. But its there.
Spiritual gifts dont come from us. They arent in the ground as part of us. They come from above. They are given. You are not born with them, you are given them when the spirit comes upon you.
Example. Jesus before he was anointed for his ministry had a teaching talent. He was a natural, but when he was anointed he was given the healing gift. Its not something he already had. It was given by God for a time and a purpose. And not for himself but for Gods glory.