Is irresistible grace (effectual calling) a biblical doctrine?

[UnitedWithChrist]

God chose to make men choose.

Scripture teaches that the lake of fire burns for all of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So, does this mean that you believe in eternal torment?

By the way, why is your username notuptome, when you claim salvation is up to you?

 

[notuptome]

Roger, in your worldview, what degree of corruption did the Fall cause in man's nature?

Total, partial, or none?

Does this corruption affect man's ability to respond to a general presentation of the gospel message?

Maybe you'd like to describe your position on these key questions, using Scripture.

God did not establish a variable scale but said that the soul that sinneth it shall die. Adam was separated from God by his sin. Adam was not beguiled like Eve. Adam chose to sin and part of the consequences of Adams choice is that we must now choose. God knowing the choice does not relieve us of making the choice to come to Him for forgiveness.

The treasure is in earthen vessel that the power may be of God. It is intended that God should sinful men to carry the word of God into all the world. Israel was elect for this purpose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

All anyone has to do is read John 6, 8, 10, Ephesians 2, 1 Corinthians 1, and Romans 8-11 to disprove your claims.

In particular, 1 Corinthians 1:26ff disproves this idea that people elect themselves. It is plain that GOD CHOOSES, not the man.

Yet, that can't be true in your worldview because you believe you chose yourself.

I think you just want to keep me busy referring to Scriptures I have already mentioned at the beginning of the thread. i have made my point logically in the thread already. I am not going to continue repeating them.

I have more interesting threads to create, and need to focus on them.

More false doctrine to spread? You are not trustworthy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

And election took place before ”Let there be light...” Conversion happens in time, but election took place before time began. Our conversion is the result of being elected before the world came into existence.

Incorrect understanding of election. Common but wrong. Election refers to a post salvation position in Christ. You are not made the righteousness of Christ until you are saved.

Does God in His sovereignty have the authority to demand you choose between sin and His Son Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

All anyone has to do is read John 6, 8, 10, Ephesians 2, 1 Corinthians 1, and Romans 8-11 to disprove your claims.

In particular, 1 Corinthians 1:26ff disproves this idea that people elect themselves. It is plain that GOD CHOOSES, not the man.

Yet, that can't be true in your worldview because you believe you chose yourself.

I think you just want to keep me busy referring to Scriptures I have already mentioned at the beginning of the thread. i have made my point logically in the thread already. I am not going to continue repeating them.

I have more interesting threads to create, and need to focus on them.

Your theology fails in the presence of Gods truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God did not establish a variable scale but said that the soul that sinneth it shall die. Adam was separated from God by his sin. Adam was not beguiled like Eve. Adam chose to sin and part of the consequences of Adams choice is that we must now choose. God knowing the choice does not relieve us of making the choice to come to Him for forgiveness.

The treasure is in earthen vessel that the power may be of God. It is intended that God should sinful men to carry the word of God into all the world. Israel was elect for this purpose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree that believers are elected for salvation AND mission AND holiness.

Your denial of election to salvation is the issue, not election to mission and holiness.

Radical corruption involves much more than what you are claiming. I listed out tons of Scriptures supplying the effects of radical corruption on this thread for those who are interested.

Man dwells in darkness, he is enslaved to Satan and sin. He is spiritually blind and deaf. He is hostile to God and his law. He is a child of Satan. He is spiritually dead.

Anyone who doubts this, feel free to review the Scriptures.

 

[notuptome]

So, does this mean that you believe in eternal torment?

By the way, why is your username notuptome, when you claim salvation is up to you?

It is taught in the bible and I do not need to give account to God of what you do. You falsely accuse those who know the gospel of saving themselves when everyone testifies that it is Christ who has saved them. Testifies that it is grace not works that saves. Election can only be the result not the cause of salvation. Grace alone is the salvation of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I agree that believers are elected for salvation AND mission AND holiness.

Your denial of election to salvation is the issue, not election to mission and holiness.

Radical corruption involves much more than what you are claiming. I listed out tons of Scriptures supplying the effects of radical corruption on this thread for those who are interested.

Man dwells in darkness, he is enslaved to Satan and sin. He is spiritually blind and deaf. He is hostile to God and his law. He is a child of Satan. He is spiritually dead.

Anyone who doubts this, feel free to review the Scriptures.

I have no doubt that you have been "radically" corrupted. Why will you not trust God through His word? Why must you add the man made doctrine of election?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Incorrect understanding of election. Common but wrong. Election refers to a post salvation position in Christ. You are not made the righteousness of Christ until you are saved.

Does God in His sovereignty have the authority to demand you choose between sin and His Son Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God supplies the means of choosing repentance and faith, and this means is regeneration.

Regarding election, I already supplied proof that the Father has given a particular group of people to the Son for his own, and those individuals were predestined since the world began.

By the way, please mention that you are an open theist who believes God doesn't know the future, so he cannot determine to do soch a thing.

I have come to actually appreciate Arminians more due to being exposed to the defective view of God that open theists promote.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It is taught in the bible and I do not need to give account to God of what you do. You falsely accuse those who know the gospel of saving themselves when everyone testifies that it is Christ who has saved them. Testifies that it is grace not works that saves. Election can only be the result not the cause of salvation. Grace alone is the salvation of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't think I've used the phrase "saving themselves".

However, I have consistently maintained that decisional regeneration is a false doctrine, as mankind has a heart of stone which cannot respond in faith and repentance. He needs a heart of flesh to make such a response.

Claiming that a man who is "in the flesh" can respond and obey God is absurd. It is the fundamental absurd position of free-willers.

Regarding the claim about election, you can't redefine words. Election means that God chooses, not that man chooses. The elect are the object of election.

 

[notuptome]

God supplies the means of choosing repentance and faith, and this means is regeneration.

Regarding election, I already supplied proof that the Father has given a particular group of people to the Son for his own, and those individuals were predestined since the world began.

By the way, please mention that you are an open theist who believes God doesn't know the future, so he cannot determine to do soch a thing.

I have come to actually appreciate Arminians more due to being exposed to the defective view of God that open theists promote.

You will continue to filter out all truth that does not conveniently fit your false narrative of Calvinism. You are not promoting sound doctrine and you heap to yourself those who will follow these fables over the sincere word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You will continue to filter out all truth that does not conveniently fit your false narrative of Calvinism. You are not promoting sound doctrine and you heap to yourself those who will follow these fables over the sincere word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Don't you deny that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, as an open theist?

 

[notuptome]

I don't think I've used the phrase "saving themselves".

However, I have consistently maintained that decisional regeneration is a false doctrine, as mankind has a heart of stone which cannot respond in faith and repentance. He needs a heart of flesh to make such a response.

Claiming that a man who is "in the flesh" can respond and obey God is absurd. It is the fundamental absurd position of free-willers.

Regarding the claim about election, you can't redefine words. Election means that God chooses, not that man chooses. The elect are the object of election.

You are like a barrel of fishhooks. It is against the gospel to claim that only the elect will be saved. It is a hateful and unbiblical doctrine.

God has given man a choice. If Christ had not come man would have no choice. Your view removes the necessity for Christ to die on the cross of Calvary. God chooses so no need for anything else.

Sacrifice Christ on the cross lifted up for all to see and you have man compelled to respond.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I have no doubt that you have been "radically" corrupted. Why will you not trust God through His word? Why must you add the man made doctrine of election?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's not a man-made doctrine.

It's clearly taught in Scripture.

1 Cor 1:26ff..why don't you exegete that for me, according to your open theistic views?

How does God choose individuals with specific, weak characteristics in order to display his strength, when he doesn't choose anyone in your worldview?

Absurd

By the way, no free-willer addresses these Scriptures because they can't, without obvious distortion.

 

[notuptome]

Don't you deny that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, as an open theist?

Why would I? Just because God knows does not mean that I know. It must be hard for you to believe that God does not operate in your narrow confines.

Those who have the hardest heart of stone are the ones that God strives with the longest that they might be saved. God does not readily give men over to the reprobate heart. His goodness draws men to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are like a barrel of fishhooks. It is against the gospel to claim that only the elect will be saved. It is a hateful and unbiblical doctrine.

God has given man a choice. If Christ had not come man would have no choice. Your view removes the necessity for Christ to die on the cross of Calvary. God chooses so no need for anything else.

Sacrifice Christ on the cross lifted up for all to see and you have man compelled to respond.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You know, you keep making claims that have already been answered.

God ordains both the end (man's salvation) and the means (one of which is preaching the gospel).

So, you are intentionally misrepresenting my position. I absolutely do not proclaim any other means of salvation besides Jesus dying on the Cross.

However, God regenerates the man in order to enable the faith/repentance response. He does not do it with his heart of stone. He needs a heart of flesh.

Election is a biblical doctrine, therefore it is godly. It encourages those who have been saved that their salvation is sure and secure, and not based on anything they have done. It is a work of God.

The reporobate (non-elect) don't care about the gospel, and do not care about Christianity. Therefore, they aren't affected in any way by the doctrine of election.

 

[notuptome]

It's not a man-made doctrine.

It's clearly taught in Scripture.

1 Cor 1:26ff..why don't you exegete that for me, according to your open theistic views?

How does God choose individuals with specific, weak characteristics in order to display his strength, when he doesn't choose anyone in your worldview?

Absurd

By the way, no free-willer addresses these Scriptures because they can't, without obvious distortion.

Highly conceited opinion. Your pride will not allow you to receive the truth. Weeds and thorns grow around your feet that you cannot grow in the Lord. Why would need to grow in sanctification if you are elect and all is set in the sovereign will of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ilkinengin76]

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE​

The doctrines of grace, which some call the Five Points of Calvinism (TULIP), are the topic of three other threads I’ve started.

I am presenting the Reformed position, as well as my understanding of the free-willer position, for comparison. I am also inviting free-willers to disprove, from a Scriptural basis, Reformed theology.

The reason why I am presenting Reformed theology is to combat the consistent misrepresentation of it by some individuals on this forum.

I believe that many are simply parroting propaganda from Dave Hunt, Steven Anderson, Leighton Flowers, or any one of several vehemently anti-Reformed propagandists.

If a believer is going to criticize the Reformed position, they should properly understand it, and then criticize it from this proper understanding, not a strawman misrepresentation of it.

Additionally, I think it is important for the encouragement of the Church to understand the principles related to Reformed theology. Why?

Reformed theology should lead to humility in the believer. The doctrines of grace were meant to humble the Christian into realizing that salvation is God’s work, therefore they cannot take credit for it. The real believer seeks to glorify and worship God for his awesome acts of salvation.

Reformed theology should lead to humility in evangelists, too. The Reformed evangelist knows that regeneration is an act of God, therefore he cannot take credit for it, like some free-willer evangelists have done (namely, Charles Finney and the "New Method" preachers of the 1800's).

Man-centered theology such as free-willers embrace leads to pride and a lack of humility. Pride is the deadly enemy of the believer. Ironically, it can also lead to self-condemnation and a lack of self-confidence in some, because their focus is not on the LORD but is on themselves.

This particular thread focuses on the Reformed doctrine irresistible grace. The doctrine of irresistible grace teaches that God accomplishes his purpose in his elect, and that the application of divine grace is ultimately realized for the elect believer through regeneration, which is a movement of God, and is not caused by humans.

As I have consistently maintained, the free-willer belief of decisional regeneration is absurd. In essence, they teach that a man with a heart of stone must produce faith and repentance in order to receive the heart of flesh that causes repentance and faith. Rather, the correct, Reformed view is that God gives the man a heart of flesh, so he can produce faith and repentance.

i HAVE HEAR THE TERM irresistible grace MISUSED AS WELL
I CAN RESIST IT, SO THEREFORE......BUT IM OF THE PERSUASION, THAT ITS TO DO WITH REGENERATION. A DOCTRINE THAT HAS BEEN TRAMPLED ON BY DECISIONISM. (sorry caps) For those God The Father , has hiven to Christ, WILL come

 

[notuptome]

You know, you keep making claims that have already been answered.

God ordains both the end (man's salvation) and the means (one of which is preaching the gospel).

So, you are intentionally misrepresenting my position. I absolutely do not proclaim any other means of salvation besides Jesus dying on the Cross.

However, God regenerates the man in order to enable the faith/repentance response. He does not do it with his heart of stone. He needs a heart of flesh.

Election is a biblical doctrine, therefore it is godly. It encourages those who have been saved that their salvation is sure and secure, and not based on anything they have done. It is a work of God.

The reporobate (non-elect) don't care about the gospel, and do not care about Christianity. Therefore, they aren't affected in any way by the doctrine of election.

You cannot answer only deflect and accuse. You will not receive sound doctrine. You need to get out of the weeds and into the good soil to grow.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Why would I? Just because God knows does not mean that I know. It must be hard for you to believe that God does not operate in your narrow confines.

Those who have the hardest heart of stone are the ones that God strives with the longest that they might be saved. God does not readily give men over to the reprobate heart. His goodness draws men to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Open theists by definition deny that God knows the future. Perhaps I have you confused with someone else on that point.

Maybe you're just a garden variety free-willer.