Is unconditional election biblical?
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Umm, I have used scripture, you simply ignore 'whosoever'. Nop, whose boasting? Now, we'll try to consider your other scripture citation of Romans 8:26, but we will make by the context to properly understand what the verse means.
The believers are expected to suffer just like their Saviour who suffered. There is no exception for the whole creation groans and travails in pain. So that the Holy Spirit works in the prayer life of every believer, the Holy Spirit also helpeth in spite of our infirmities. This groaning that we cannot utter which the Holy Ghost intercede because of the grief or pain. This has nothing to do with the salvation of our soul. To stretch out this has something to do with the redemption of our physical body. The rest you need somehow to explain the sense, not quote them. You know it is easy to pick scriptures but be sure to make us understand.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The believers are expected to suffer just like their Saviour who suffered. There is no exception for the whole creation groans and travails in pain. So that the Holy Spirit works in the prayer life of every believer, the Holy Spirit also helpeth in spite of our infirmities. This groaning that we cannot utter which the Holy Ghost intercede because of the grief or pain. This has nothing to do with the salvation of our soul. To stretch out this has something to do with the redemption of our physical body. The rest you need somehow to explain the sense, not quote them. You know it is easy to pick scriptures but be sure to make us understand.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I wonder why God is long suffering to those who He already elected for salvation? Aren’t they going to be saved no matter what?🤔
-
1
- Show all
That makes no difference as to my response. I answered your objection to HIS post.
Here is what you stated: "If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God."
You've avoided answering my post altogether. Those marked out for salvation were in time enemies of God. You said there was never a time this were true if we were marked out for salvation.
Here is what you stated: "If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God."
You've avoided answering my post altogether. Those marked out for salvation were in time enemies of God. You said there was never a time this were true if we were marked out for salvation.
-
1
- Show all
Nope. He did that before time.
But back to the discussion at hand.
You've avoided this:
(You've claimed to have always loved God, implying you've never hated him, now you're claiming never being his enemy...OOOPSIE!!!!!!!!!!!)
And this:
(You're still dodging this to protect YOU and your self-asserted integrity and enduring love for God while unsaved)
After you said this:
I corrected you here, learn to accept refutation.
But back to the discussion at hand.
You've avoided this:
(You've claimed to have always loved God, implying you've never hated him, now you're claiming never being his enemy...OOOPSIE!!!!!!!!!!!)
And this:
(You're still dodging this to protect YOU and your self-asserted integrity and enduring love for God while unsaved)
After you said this:
I corrected you here, learn to accept refutation.
-
1
- Show all
Why wonder? God is in time awaiting the salvation of all his elect to take place in, well, time.
Longsuffering means he is patient for it, speaking in anthropomorphic terms, as to answer why are things taking so long according to man's mind. That's all in the context of the passage. The "usward" are contextually all those from the first verse on, or, plainly, the elect.
Longsuffering means he is patient for it, speaking in anthropomorphic terms, as to answer why are things taking so long according to man's mind. That's all in the context of the passage. The "usward" are contextually all those from the first verse on, or, plainly, the elect.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
You ask me for scripture to back up my statements and you are doing the same thing here. I know that you are quoting from 2 Pet 3:9. You have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 to understand who Peter is talking to and it is "them that have obtained like precious faith", Peter even includes himself in his warning to them by using the word "us-ward". The natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14 will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he thinks is foolishness. He does not think he sins. His stony heart can not be pricked to feel quilt.
That's disingenuous of you. All this time we've been speaking of pre-conversion experience, not post-conversion.
The thing is this; pre-conversion you hated God, and were his enemy (Romans 5:10). I've proven such with Scripture, but yet again, you think you beat the system and were never his enemy.
The thing is this; pre-conversion you hated God, and were his enemy (Romans 5:10). I've proven such with Scripture, but yet again, you think you beat the system and were never his enemy.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
I have never referred to Calvin in my life. I consider myself Reformed Baptist. Like John146 said, I believe in adult believer's baptism by full immersion. Infants can be dedicated, as a commitment by parents to raise them up reading the Bible, praying and going to church, but only God can save them, and they need to hear from God as to when to be baptized, which should be sooner rather than later, after God calls them.
The only thing I know about Calvin is what I learned in church history, along with Arminius, and in theology, when we spent a week or so studying soteriology.
What I do know well is the Bible, which I have read cover to cover over 50 times in various translations in English, French, German and Spanish. I've also read the NT in Koine Greek, and a number of books of the OT in Biblical Hebrew. That is what I base my theology on - the Bible.
I also read a book by RC Sproule describing Reformed theology, which showed me what I believed about the Reformed viewpoint was NOT what Reformers believed. So my little straw men were easily knocked down.
This is why I keep recommending if you want to know more more about either Reformed or Arminian theology, you read the books by people who believe in it, to find out what they believe. Certainly Whisperer is outstanding in her wrong beliefs about Reformed theology, but too dogmatic and rigid to read actual books by the people who believe it, which is what a real scholar does. You don't have to believe it. But you do need to read it, to see if your knowledge of the topic is different than someone who believes and lives by it.
The only thing I know about Calvin is what I learned in church history, along with Arminius, and in theology, when we spent a week or so studying soteriology.
What I do know well is the Bible, which I have read cover to cover over 50 times in various translations in English, French, German and Spanish. I've also read the NT in Koine Greek, and a number of books of the OT in Biblical Hebrew. That is what I base my theology on - the Bible.
I also read a book by RC Sproule describing Reformed theology, which showed me what I believed about the Reformed viewpoint was NOT what Reformers believed. So my little straw men were easily knocked down.
This is why I keep recommending if you want to know more more about either Reformed or Arminian theology, you read the books by people who believe in it, to find out what they believe. Certainly Whisperer is outstanding in her wrong beliefs about Reformed theology, but too dogmatic and rigid to read actual books by the people who believe it, which is what a real scholar does. You don't have to believe it. But you do need to read it, to see if your knowledge of the topic is different than someone who believes and lives by it.
-
1
- Show all
So you believe in works salvation? We earn our righteousness on our own merit? You need to start reading the Bible from cover to cover, without the tracts or other cult papers you are using to come to these heretical conclusions. And while you are reading, pay attention to context. Every single bad piece of theology can usually be unveiled merely by reading the words in context.
The words in context of the sentence,
the sentence in terms of the paragraph, the paragraph in light of the passage or chapter,
the chapter in light of the book,
the book in light of the Testament (or covenant)
the Covenant in light of the Bible and the Bible in light of Jesus Christ.
I am always bemused by people who think they can earn their own righteous by their works, when the Bible says the opposite!
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:18-1
We won't even getting into the arrogance of claiming you have earned your own righteous, when the Bible clearly points to Jesus, and him alone!
-
2
- Show all
Leighton Flowers believes in open theology. This is a new theology, and unfortunately my new pastor embraces it, although he did not tell the congregation before we called him.
He just preached from Job 1:27, saying Job and the Bible are wrong, God is not in control. IOW, God is not sovereign.
"Open Theism is the heretical teaching that denies the sovereignty, majesty, infinitude, knowledge, existence, and glory of God and exalts man’s free will. The fact that Open Theism is heretical is well established. Even Chris Fisher acknowledges that his Open Theist position has been deemed heretical by all of orthodox christianity."
https://biblethumpingwingnut.com/2018/09/08/leighton-flowers-agrees-with-mormon-apologist/
A good article for you to read, Melach!
In fact, Arminianism is the first step on the way to open theology. Arminianism exalts the will of people, rather than God. I am not saying that Arminians are not saved. I know many that are. But every person I know who believes in open theology, started as an Arminian, had some kind of crisis of faith or self, and dropped all that baggage of God being an Omnipotent, Omniscient, omnipresent being, and replaced him with a small, meaningless God who has nothing to do with Creation, and sending Jesus to die in the cross, that we might be saved. He is helpless, and impotent, probably sits around all day figuring out how to be good, because that is one of the only characteristics that open theists believe, is that God is good.
Of course, God is good. But he is so much more. It is heretical to limit God, to put him in a box, and only let him out when someone needs a bit of goodness!
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Sounds just like the Pentecostals.
Is Gods sovereignty better than His goodness? Must you deny one to have the other?
Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Is Gods sovereignty better than His goodness? Must you deny one to have the other?
Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
-
1
- Show all