Is unconditional election biblical?

[ForestGreenCook]

at 5 years old, when I accepted Christ, I did not hate God. In fact, I had never heard about Him

everyone does not hate God. Many have never heard...which the Bible clearly indicates

I remember one young man who had never heard and when he learned...and I needed a translator cause at the time my French was not that good...he accepted Jesus and even spoke in tongues. He stood at the altar with tears streaming down his face and hands upraised praising God. He had never heard before

like the Bible says...How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? Romans 10:14

everyone does not hate God. actually, they would have to know about Him in order to hate Him

that total depravity thing just does not fly

I never thought that I would agree with you, but the natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, doesn't dwell upon a spiritual God that he does not believe exists, however I disagree with your last statement. The natural man is totally depraved, as we all are by our nature.

 

[John146]

I never thought that I would agree with you, but the natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, doesn't dwell upon a spiritual God that he does not believe exists, however I disagree with your last statement. The natural man is totally depraved, as we all are by our nature.

King Agrippa believed the Scriptures and was almost persuaded by Paul to be a christian.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

i will disprove not only total depravity, but also the misusing of ephesians 2:1 (etc). they say these verses proof that man is just spiritually dead and cant do anything, God needs to resurrect them before they can hear and believe gospel. but this is not what bible means with dead spiritually, that they cant think anymore.

the parable of the prodigal son he went to the world wasted his fortune was in there with the pigs.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


the father says "my son was dead and is alive again". when the son was "dead" he wasnt incapable of thinking or feeling remose, look in the story where i posted, "he came to himself" and then made up his mind said "i will arise and go to my father" and he was humble to say I have sinned against heaven and before thee. so then he goes back and Father forgives him, this is what Jesus also means when Jesus says God gives grace to the humble.

so we see being "dead" spiritually doesnt mean yo cant feel bad for your sins, repent and turn to God and be forgiven freely.
we dont even need bible to see this like seasrekeyed said. many people dont hate God they never even heard of Jesus

You forget one thing. He was his father's son before he left home and he was still his father's son while he was gone. The natural man, before he is born of the Spirit is not God's child.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

thats what i meant to say. its very cultic. thats what i mean when i said they all talk the same way, have teh same personality(or lack of it) and use the same language. its either a cult of personality because i notice they all even talk with same tone of voice as james whitelie. they are true fanboys
i can actually tell someone is a calvinist pastor from hearing how they speak. not joking they dont need to say anything "calvinistic". i can just tell from the rhythm of what they speak, maybe they are taught to speak that way.

I have no problem believing that at all

I have actually come across a good number of sites while researching, and some from ex calvinist's, that refer to this group as demonic or devilish and so on

I decided not to post any of that though because what's the use !?!

I think they are all the same because they have inherited the 'spirit' that was upon their hero

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You forget one thing. He was his father's son before he left home and he was still his father's son while he was gone. The natural man, before he is born of the Spirit is not God's child.

oh really?

is this where you deviate from all that limited atonement nonsense?

I mean if you are one of the elect, you are one of the elect no matter where you may be in life

so really, he was always saved in your economy

just more word salad and the dressing is past it's best before date

you belong to possibly an even worse group...the Baptist whatever you call yourselves

 

[ForestGreenCook]

King Agrippa believed the Scriptures and was almost persuaded by Paul to be a christian.

Are we back to determining who is and who is not the elect? It is possible that King Agrippa could have been born of the Spirit.

 

[John146]

Are we back to determining who is and who is not the elect? It is possible that King Agrippa could have been born of the Spirit.

Nope, he ended up not becoming a Christian therefore, not receiving the Spirit. But king Agrippa goes against your belief system.

 

[Melach]

Are we back to determining who is and who is not the elect? It is possible that King Agrippa could have been born of the Spirit.

this wheres waldo game is the big problem with calvinism too. will the real elect please stand up?

king agrippa didnt get saved then, maybe he did later who knows, but from what we know in bible he wasnt a saved man. thats it.
he wasnt born of the Spirit because he didnt believe in Jesus. very easy to figure it out

 

[ForestGreenCook]

oh really?

is this where you deviate from all that limited atonement nonsense?

I mean if you are one of the elect, you are one of the elect no matter where you may be in life

so really, he was always saved in your economy

just more word salad and the dressing is past it's best before date

you belong to possibly an even worse group...the Baptist whatever you call yourselves

You really do not hold too much to scripture discussion do you? Your reference is what you have stored in your mind instead of referencing the scriptures.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You just have to copy and paste, these long passages which no one reads! I had to delete most of it because it made my short post over 10,000 words!

This Reformed person has known she is saved since God first saved me, 39 years ago! I knew nothing about soteriology, I only knew that I belonged to Jesus, and it was his choice, not mine.

When I was in Arminian churches it always concerned me that sinner's prayers were pushed as a way to be saved. It meant the person was choosing to be saved, not God choosing them. God chose me, I did not choose him. I also couldn't believe that someone could lose their salvation. I knew I was secure in Christ. Even during my bad years, when I was so depressed from the pain of severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, and I got angry at God, because my theology was so immature, I knew he was there, right behind me, waiting for me to turn around. He spent months telling me daily to read 5 Psalms a day. And when I finally did, I read the Psalms for 2 years, reading all 150 of them once a month. At some point, I turned and ran back into God's arms, and he welcomed me back. I was saved the whole time. Because my salvation is dependent upon God's sovereignty, not this weak, plain vessel, who sins and makes mistakes. God elected me, and made me his. And God does not make mistakes.

I feel sorry for Arminians, and the so called people in the middle! They have little assurance of real salvation, because they know they cannot trust themselves. But, trusting God, acknowledging him as the Saviour of the world, is so easy, so wonderful, so joyful. I love Hebrews 13:5 that says, "I will never leave or forsake you."

My confidence is in God alone, not in Calvin, and not myself!

what are you talking about?

in another thread some time back, you very clearly stated you were neither Arminian nor did you place yourself in Calvin's camp

your experience is your experience

I believe scripture...and not either camp

who do you think believers on here have their confidence in for the most part?'
'
huh?

I don't think you feel sorry. you sound more like you fancy yourself superior

people here who are not reformed are most assuredly secure in Christ because HE is the One that secures them for our Father

you consistently voice your opinion as though that was the cherry on top of everything

 

[7seasrekeyed]

this wheres waldo game is the big problem with calvinism too. will the real elect please stand up?

king agrippa didnt get saved then, maybe he did later who knows, but from what we know in bible he wasnt a saved man. thats it.
he wasnt born of the Spirit because he didnt believe in Jesus. very easy to figure it out

 

[ForestGreenCook]

this wheres waldo game is the big problem with calvinism too. will the real elect please stand up?

king agrippa didnt get saved then, maybe he did later who knows, but from what we know in bible he wasnt a saved man. thats it.
he wasnt born of the Spirit because he didnt believe in Jesus. very easy to figure it out

King Agrippa did wash his hands of the whole thing, but you go right on and separate the sheep from the goats if you think you are that smart.

 

[John146]

King Agrippa did wash his hands of the whole thing, but you go right on and separate the sheep from the goats if you think you are that smart.

What saint the Scripture? Almost became a Christian. Almost is still a no.

 

[Melach]

King Agrippa did wash his hands of the whole thing, but you go right on and separate the sheep from the goats if you think you are that smart.

goodness gracious. Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, but i can also spot some obvious goats with horns showing. take a look at the leader of north korea, thats a clear goat. he made himself god, he is evil and doesnt believe in Jesus. why should i pretend and act like he is some mystical elect person who is secretly saved? this isnt bible you are talking where is waldo

 

[John146]

A true Calvinist believes they were never lost but was chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh yeah

Primitive Baptist

that was it

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Still doesn't affect free will.



I prefer the statement God has worked within mankind to fulfill His purpose.



How does this negate free will? Born in rebellion born with the curse of Adam. Once called can not one come out of rebellion? Once acknowledgment of sin can not one see they need a Savior?

Psalm 58 New International Version (NIV)
Psalm 58[a]
For the director of music. To the tune of “Do Not Destroy.” Of David. A miktam.[b]
1 Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
Do you judge people with equity?
2 No, in your heart you devise injustice,
and your hands mete out violence on the earth.
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

This is written more as poetry. How does a baby be wicked, to devise injustice, and commit violence? How does one lie from the womb? David was writing about wicked rulers and the enemies around him. More accurately it is understood that many people go astray early in life. All are sinners and carry the curse but that doesn't imply total depravity and abolish moral law or the ability to freely think and decide.



Only speaking for free will. Christ is needed. Without a sacrifice for sins that we all too often freely fall into makes us guilty. What is free choice going to do against a holy perfect judge without a Holy perfect sacrifice? We need freedom from sin not freedom from mind. We know good and evil exists the law within us or the written laws tells us this.



Oh boy straight from the Calvinist play book. Romans 9:21 ( isn't about salvation but on services that God designed for his people to do. In context this is speaking on the Jewish people. Some honorable while some common. But if you go with your belief this means you are puppet.

9:22 doesn't say God prepared vessels of wrath but only that he endured or was patient so they would not be without excuse.

Why is God patient if the individual is forced to respond?

9:23-24 God does prepare people for glory. We are in a constant state between glory to glory.

9:25 not sure why you capitalized it but okay I dont see it proving your point?



It may look that way in a debate over if free will is of man. Lol but I can boldly say God gets all the glory.



Great but what about babies? What about the mentally handicap you dont preach to? How can a damage brain understand your language? Why preach at all? The chosen will find God regardless.



Well so far your 3 starters dont prove your point.

I said I was bowing out but wanted to clarify something. I didn’t go all caps. The NASB does that. I use www.literalword.com when I copy and paste scriptures. They also have an app for it. It’s my fav version. But I also use the NIV(better than it’s given credit for, imo), HCSB, CSB, ESV(though I don’t use it as much as the NASB, HCSB, CSB).

 

[posthuman]

King Agrippa believed the Scriptures and was almost persuaded by Paul to be a christian.

I am not sure it is correct to say he believed the scripture

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

What Jesus says about believing the scripture seems to indicate that Agrippa definitely did not believe them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You just have to copy and paste, these long passages which no one reads! I had to delete most of it because it made my short post over 10,000 words!

This Reformed person has known she is saved since God first saved me, 39 years ago! I knew nothing about soteriology, I only knew that I belonged to Jesus, and it was his choice, not mine.

When I was in Arminian churches it always concerned me that sinner's prayers were pushed as a way to be saved. It meant the person was choosing to be saved, not God choosing them. God chose me, I did not choose him. I also couldn't believe that someone could lose their salvation. I knew I was secure in Christ. Even during my bad years, when I was so depressed from the pain of severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, and I got angry at God, because my theology was so immature, I knew he was there, right behind me, waiting for me to turn around. He spent months telling me daily to read 5 Psalms a day. And when I finally did, I read the Psalms for 2 years, reading all 150 of them once a month. At some point, I turned and ran back into God's arms, and he welcomed me back. I was saved the whole time. Because my salvation is dependent upon God's sovereignty, not this weak, plain vessel, who sins and makes mistakes. God elected me, and made me his. And God does not make mistakes.

I feel sorry for Arminians, and the so called people in the middle! They have little assurance of real salvation, because they know they cannot trust themselves. But, trusting God, acknowledging him as the Saviour of the world, is so easy, so wonderful, so joyful. I love Hebrews 13:5 that says, "I will never leave or forsake you."

My confidence is in God alone, not in Calvin, and not myself!

Nice post. I am in agreement with what you have said. My daughter is 60 years old now and was diagnosed with RA in her youth, but went into remission in her puberty years and it came back in a fury 8 years ago. She had to quit her job with the Texas lottery Service and filed for disability. I, also, am not Arminian nor do I follow Calvin's beliefs.

 

[posthuman]

A true Calvinist believes they were never lost but was chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

It does say what is written above

A pelagian will argue that what it meant to say is that He chose a generic group of people which may or may not be an empty group and that the reality is each individual person chooses for themselves to be chosen by Him.

But the Scripture here says He has seated us in heavenly places with Him 'just as' this predestination it speaks of. So I question whether the pelagian view would also mean that He has only predetermined that a generic class of people are seated with Him, which may or may not include anyone, but it is up to each person even after choosing for themselves to be chosen by Him to effectively seat themselves in glory with Him.

Jesus says take the lowest seat and let someone else choose move you to a higher one.