Is unconditional election biblical?
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at 5 years old, when I accepted Christ, I did not hate God. In fact, I had never heard about Him
everyone does not hate God. Many have never heard...which the Bible clearly indicates
I remember one young man who had never heard and when he learned...and I needed a translator cause at the time my French was not that good...he accepted Jesus and even spoke in tongues. He stood at the altar with tears streaming down his face and hands upraised praising God. He had never heard before
like the Bible says...How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? Romans 10:14
everyone does not hate God. actually, they would have to know about Him in order to hate Him
that total depravity thing just does not fly
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if I could have put a dozen x's on this particular post I would have
then again, you guys are cessationists after all so what would I expect
if you have the Holy Spirit indwelling, and when a person accepts Christ they are sealed with the Spirit of God, how can you possibly assert that God is only outside of you in a book?
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we are still a tripartite being
we are cut off from the realtionship God wishes for His creation, but still as we were
death...spiritual and physical...consequences of the fall
saying they died does not mean they were somehow now devoid of a spirit
how does God send a person to eternal punishment if they have no spirit?
ummm...no one said that we are belonging to God prior to salvation...at least I didn't see that if they did
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These are good and fair points. I will consider them.
My first thought without digging too deep is that I agree, even the lost are not spiritless. But of what spirit? You rightly point out that we will die physically. But we will also die spiritually if we are not born again. So the million dollar question remains. How can a fallen, sinful, spirit, that is born in ADAM'S image, be able to choose for themselves to be born again. I respect that some think they can. I just don't see it.
From God's perspective Adam and Eve died the day they disobeyed. He views 1 day as a thousand yrs, and neither made it quite to 1000 yrs old. So we either have to say God didn't really mean they die, He just means their hearts were sick, or we accept that they died that day.
Scripture doesn't talk about fixing our dead fleshly heart. It says we will be given a NEW heart. Made a NEW creation.
My first thought without digging too deep is that I agree, even the lost are not spiritless. But of what spirit? You rightly point out that we will die physically. But we will also die spiritually if we are not born again. So the million dollar question remains. How can a fallen, sinful, spirit, that is born in ADAM'S image, be able to choose for themselves to be born again. I respect that some think they can. I just don't see it.
From God's perspective Adam and Eve died the day they disobeyed. He views 1 day as a thousand yrs, and neither made it quite to 1000 yrs old. So we either have to say God didn't really mean they die, He just means their hearts were sick, or we accept that they died that day.
Scripture doesn't talk about fixing our dead fleshly heart. It says we will be given a NEW heart. Made a NEW creation.
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If you are referring to me, I have never considered myself a calvinist, and of course you must repent.
But I believe the repentance we must have is of dead works to earn Salvation. Recognizing that there is NOTHING a person can do to save themselves.
Once we are born again, the Holy Spirit will empower us to repent of every other sin. But of course we know that this process of sanctification lasts until we receive our incorruptible bodies.
But I believe the repentance we must have is of dead works to earn Salvation. Recognizing that there is NOTHING a person can do to save themselves.
Once we are born again, the Holy Spirit will empower us to repent of every other sin. But of course we know that this process of sanctification lasts until we receive our incorruptible bodies.
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i will disprove not only total depravity, but also the misusing of ephesians 2:1 (etc). they say these verses proof that man is just spiritually dead and cant do anything, God needs to resurrect them before they can hear and believe gospel. but this is not what bible means with dead spiritually, that they cant think anymore.
the parable of the prodigal son he went to the world wasted his fortune was in there with the pigs.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
the father says "my son was dead and is alive again". when the son was "dead" he wasnt incapable of thinking or feeling remose, look in the story where i posted, "he came to himself" and then made up his mind said "i will arise and go to my father" and he was humble to say I have sinned against heaven and before thee. so then he goes back and Father forgives him, this is what Jesus also means when Jesus says God gives grace to the humble.
so we see being "dead" spiritually doesnt mean yo cant feel bad for your sins, repent and turn to God and be forgiven freely.
we dont even need bible to see this like seasrekeyed said. many people dont hate God they never even heard of Jesus
the parable of the prodigal son he went to the world wasted his fortune was in there with the pigs.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
the father says "my son was dead and is alive again". when the son was "dead" he wasnt incapable of thinking or feeling remose, look in the story where i posted, "he came to himself" and then made up his mind said "i will arise and go to my father" and he was humble to say I have sinned against heaven and before thee. so then he goes back and Father forgives him, this is what Jesus also means when Jesus says God gives grace to the humble.
so we see being "dead" spiritually doesnt mean yo cant feel bad for your sins, repent and turn to God and be forgiven freely.
we dont even need bible to see this like seasrekeyed said. many people dont hate God they never even heard of Jesus
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It's easy to disprove Total Depravity. Firstly, it cannot pertain to an Omni-Benevolent Omniscient God that created man in His image and likeness.
But also, Total Depravity, as has been said by those far wiser than myself, is a new doctrine reworking old Gnosticism.
Therefore, it is not of God at all.
But think of the sin of pride the entire TULIP formula bolsters in those who are devout to it.
Calvin had people killed for disagreeing with his theology. That's some example of the Elect of God who would appear, by John's example at the very least, to remain totally depraved while thinking himself chosen.
But also, Total Depravity, as has been said by those far wiser than myself, is a new doctrine reworking old Gnosticism.
Therefore, it is not of God at all.
But think of the sin of pride the entire TULIP formula bolsters in those who are devout to it.
Calvin had people killed for disagreeing with his theology. That's some example of the Elect of God who would appear, by John's example at the very least, to remain totally depraved while thinking himself chosen.
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