Is unconditional election biblical?

[Whispered]

But that’s not what he said. A personal achievement is something we accomplished. He’s saying his knowing God was something he did. That’s heresy.

Well, you know, being labeled a Heretic is simply being said to ascribe to a belief or opinion contrary to, in the case of the faithful, Christian orthodox religious teaching.
The Reformation, as example, was Heresy under the judgment of the Roman Catholic Church.
Further, I cannot gainsay Leighton Flowers personal opinion concerning his coming to Christ.
He knows where he was when he found Jesus. Therefore, it could very well be a personal achievement for him. Achievement is also defined as something done through an act of courage. I don't think his remark qualifies as Heresy. But then again, according to the RCC I am a heretic, so there is that.

 

[Whispered]

All the information is information, it is not data, it is not relevant/connected to what people out there actually believe.

Oh, my dear, we will agree to end this here. Everything that has been posted by not just myself but by countless others in numerous threads concerning this one topic pertains to what people "out there actually believe".

 

[preacher4truth]

Watch the debate Professor Flowers had with Dr. James White on YouTube. It’s almost three hours long, so have some snacks and a drink nearby.

Professor Flowers was on another website as a moderator and said knowing Christ was a personal achievement, right @preacher4truth ? So don’t take his teachings seriously. He also denies the Spirit’s drawing being necessary in salvation. Just give them the gospel and let them decide for themselves outside the Spirt’s influence. I can provide proof for both these assertions if you don’t believe me.

Flowers the heretic also claims that there need be no supernatural work of God in the salvation of man.

He also claims, like those on here who think they were chosen because they merited it or met conditions, that God chooses some like when you going to a deli, choosing the choice meats over other meat. That's exactly what the gainsayers here believe as well, yet, Flowers said it out in the open for them.

And yes, he claimed salvation is a personal achievement we are to boast in. Fact.

Only unconditional election, which is biblical, note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, gives all the glory to whom it is due, showing we were chosen for nothing in us or about us causing God to do it. That is why it is grace. Unconditional election is a false gospel and denies the very meaning of grace.

You all can argue against that all you want, yet is is the truth while none of your arguments are neither biblical nor sound.

Listen to another of Leighton Flower's heresy laden videos? I'll pass, as being already aware that his theology and gospel are both false.

 

[Whispered]

Still sounds like Paul has a war within himself, the mind against the flesh.

Agreed. And yet, in the Saint Apostle Paul's letter (epistle) to the church in Philippi , that passage which 7 earlier posted, tells us that conflict does not have to subsist in the faithful.
And the peace of God, surpassing all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:7

 

[ForestGreenCook]

what an absolutely perfect example of a non sequitur

as I have said, when a Calvinist or one who believes bascically as one refuses to acknowledge scritpurem they have many tactics available (they think) to move the conversation along while still holding ground (false belief on their part)

you might as well have said 'there is no oxygen on the moon'

at least that would have been true

you know, you would do better to say nothing than attempt to negate scripture totally unrelated to what you, apparently, have no knowledge to of

now here comes some more natural vs spiritual man that has no application whatsoever


rinse repeat ad infinitum

When you are proven wrong, you kind of get teed off, don't you!

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm trying to figure out the point of all this contention surrounding this stuff.

You answered your own question below:

And I know that He loves me. And I know that I love Him. So please, someone tell me how all that came about because I chose Him? That I reasoned it out? IT WASN'T ME!

Because GOD IS IN CONTROL, not Ed.

Conditional election is heresy and a false gospel.

 

[Whispered]

Flowers the heretic also claims that there need be no supernatural work of God in the salvation of man.

He also claims, like those on here who think they were chosen because they merited it or met conditions, that God chooses some like when you going to a deli, choosing the choice meats over other meat. That's exactly what the gainsayers here believe as well, yet, Flowers said it out in the open for them.

And yes, he claimed salvation is a personal achievement we are to boast in. Fact.

Only unconditional election, which is biblical, note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, gives all the glory to whom it is due, showing we were chosen for nothing in us or about us causing God to do it. That is why it is grace. Unconditional election is a false gospel and denies the very meaning of grace.

You all can argue against that all you want, yet is is the truth while none of your arguments are neither biblical nor sound.

Listen to another of Leighton Flower's heresy laden videos? I'll pass, as being already aware that his theology and gospel are both false.

Is it any wonder those who are members of the Reformed Theology congregation or are Calvinist align against a former Calvinist this way?

It must be said so as to expose the full facts, that Mr. Flowers remarks were in rebuttal to Irresistible Grace , the "I" in TULIP.
https://biblethumpingwingnut.com/2018/09/18/leighton-flowers-ordo-salutis-soteriology-101/
Mr.Flowers page, Soteriology 101, below for context. The Bible scripture and then the evidence he is refuting IG.

 

[John146]

God HAS predestined all things. I feel sorry for those of your ilk who want a god that bows to your whims and desires. You all want a god you can control.

Good bye to you.

Does your God have grace and mercy?

Why pray if everything has already been decided? King David knew better. You know, the man after God’s own heart.

2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

what an absolutely perfect example of a non sequitur

as I have said, when a Calvinist or one who believes bascically as one refuses to acknowledge scritpurem they have many tactics available (they think) to move the conversation along while still holding ground (false belief on their part)

you might as well have said 'there is no oxygen on the moon'

at least that would have been true

you know, you would do better to say nothing than attempt to negate scripture totally unrelated to what you, apparently, have no knowledge to of

now here comes some more natural vs spiritual man that has no application whatsoever


rinse repeat ad infinitum

I see I am reversing letters again...brain works faster than the fingers apparently

but it was understood anyway

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Thank you for sharing. I just found it curious that our Preacher4Truth is on that same thread page that you linked here. As I said, small world.

P4T is a well known member round these parts

goes back some

Calvinist to the bones and then some

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Flowers the heretic also claims that there need be no supernatural work of God in the salvation of man.

He also claims, like those on here who think they were chosen because they merited it or met conditions, that God chooses some like when you going to a deli, choosing the choice meats over other meat. That's exactly what the gainsayers here believe as well, yet, Flowers said it out in the open for them.

And yes, he claimed salvation is a personal achievement we are to boast in. Fact.

Only unconditional election, which is biblical, note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, gives all the glory to whom it is due, showing we were chosen for nothing in us or about us causing God to do it. That is why it is grace. Unconditional election is a false gospel and denies the very meaning of grace.

You all can argue against that all you want, yet is is the truth while none of your arguments are neither biblical nor sound.

Listen to another of Leighton Flower's heresy laden videos? I'll pass, as being already aware that his theology and gospel are both false.

Uhhh, you made a faux pas and stuff, Bruh.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

When you are proven wrong, you kind of get teed off, don't you!

another non-sequitur

you can say you don't know what that means. this is a safe place

 

[posthuman]

The saddest fact about all this is those who believe they were elected based on meeting some condition are teaching salvation and grace are merited rewards.

They believe this because they think it would be unfair for the Potter to have right over the clay, and this belief is rooted in the belief that the clay is inherently deserving. It struck me - even when i was young and had never heard anyone talk about such things - as being vain, and mixing up the proper station of God and man. No matter what God chooses to do, i am never in a position to judge Him.

From what I've seen and heard the other primary motivation that they do this is the idea that man is not responsible for his actions if God's sovereignty extends to election - which is how we get people trying to describe is foreknowledge in terms of prescience, that is, that God doesn't affect anything in the future, but more or less has a copy of tomorrow's newspaper, or a crystal ball, so that He is able to see how someone will behave or believe and then 'elect them' based on what He observes about them. Key to this is preserving an 'absolute' free and sovereign will of mankind, the thinking being that love cannot truly be love, and obedience not real obedience, unless it is completely uncoerced and free of any divine influence. People say, God does not create robots, and robots cannot love, etc. Paul directly addresses this in Romans 9 when he anticipates the reaction people will have to what he has pointed out about Jacob and Esau, 'how can God still judge us since no one can resist His will?' - - and Paul goes straight to the Potter / clay metaphor, saying who do you think you are to talk back to God?
It's the same argument again: God does as He pleases and whatever our human ideas of fairness or worth are, they must be subject to the truth.
God did create us and He didn't do so in ignorance. We do have free will but it isn't absolutely free: we are constrained by our passions and by His real and active will for us.

""We complain today that ministers do not know how to preach; but is it not equally true that our congregations do not know how to hear?"(JI Packer, A Quest For Godliness , 254).

Do you think this says 'don't bother preaching the gospel since we're Calvinist'

??

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Where? Post the proof please.

I am actually not familiar with Flowers but when someone makes a statement such as has been made, they absolutely do need to post the proof

I always post links or proof

otherwise, it's just smoke

 

[John146]

Paul directly addresses this in Romans 9 when he anticipates the reaction people will have to what he has pointed out about Jacob and Esau, 'how can God still judge us since no one can resist His will?' - - and Paul goes straight to the Potter / clay metaphor, saying who do you think you are to talk back to God?

What about Jacob and Esau?

The scripture is not stating that God’s will cannot be resisted? Have you ever resisted God’s will?

 

[preacher4truth]

Uhhh, you made a faux pas and stuff, Bruh.

Stuff happens and stuff, bro.

Of course you know what I meant.

 

[calibob]

He also said that the Spirit wasn’t necessary when the gospel was presented to a lost person. He’s a heretic. He also compared us being saved to being choice meat. There was something in the choice meat that made it inherently better, and that attracts us to it. He then projected that analogy onto election, how God chooses to save ppl. That’s not election at all.

I'll never agree with any thing or any body that's not in context from the gospel. It is the only word that I trust. I'm unwatching this thread.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Flowers the heretic also claims that there need be no supernatural work of God in the salvation of man.

He also claims, like those on here who think they were chosen because they merited it or met conditions, that God chooses some like when you going to a deli, choosing the choice meats over other meat. That's exactly what the gainsayers here believe as well, yet, Flowers said it out in the open for them.

And yes, he claimed salvation is a personal achievement we are to boast in. Fact.

Only unconditional election, which is biblical, note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, gives all the glory to whom it is due, showing we were chosen for nothing in us or about us causing God to do it. That is why it is grace. Unconditional election is a false gospel and denies the very meaning of grace.

You all can argue against that all you want, yet is is the truth while none of your arguments are neither biblical nor sound.

Listen to another of Leighton Flower's heresy laden videos? I'll pass, as being already aware that his theology and gospel are both false.

you are going to need more than one garbage truck for this post

you obviously do not understand anything but your TULIP regimen

He also claims, like those on here who think they were chosen because they merited it or met conditions, that God chooses some like when you going to a deli, choosing the choice meats over other meat. That's exactly what the gainsayers here believe as well, yet, Flowers said it out in the open for them.

as usual and I remember your style well, you pervert what is being said or simply make something up and then attribute it to people who are not of your beliefs

IMO, this is almost report worthy for the lies it contains and the obvious desire to slander

yup

I remember your style well.

 

[Melach]

another non-sequitur

you can say you don't know what that means. this is a safe place

no joke i dont know what a non-sequitor is but its not my mother language.

anyway. @preacher4truth and @Sackcloth-N-Ashes if you can show me where leighton flowers said those things i would agree with you guys he is wrong. but i have never heard him say that so cannot speak.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

God HAS predestined all things. I feel sorry for those of your ilk who want a god that bows to your whims and desires. You all want a god you can control.

Good bye to you.

you are simply debasing yourself now with silly insults

again, that is what Calvinists do when they run out of ways to make others seem Biblically illiterate

you don't feel sorry for anyone

you feel superior and you are miffed because we do not see you that way

we are well aware that we do not control God

you are devolving right before our eyes