Is unconditional election biblical?

[Whispered]

I guess you have never read Romans 7:14-25.

Two verses do not harmonize the whole message of the Saint Apostle Paul's letter.

If you had read the entire chapter you would realize there is no conflict between what 7 observed and what Paul said there.
The Book of Romans chapter 7

Released from the Law
Or do you not know, brothers[a]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For (A)a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.[b] 3 Accordingly, (B)she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4 Likewise, my brothers, (C)you also have died (D)to the law (E)through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, (F)in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work (G)in our members (H)to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the (I)new way of (J)the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.[c]
The Law and Sin
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, (K)I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if (L)the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, (M)seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. (N)For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment (O)that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, (P)seizing an opportunity through the commandment, (Q)deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So (R)the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, (S)sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For (T)I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with (U)the law, that it is good. 17 So now (V)it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells (W)in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 (X)For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, (Y)it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For (Z)I delight in the law of God, (AA)in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members (AB)another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from (AC)this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

FOOTNOTES

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And if you have time, why not consider former Calvinist sharing why they left Calvinism.

Watch the debate Professor Flowers had with Dr. James White on YouTube. It’s almost three hours long, so have some snacks and a drink nearby.

Professor Flowers was on another website as a moderator and said knowing Christ was a personal achievement, right @preacher4truth ? So don’t take his teachings seriously. He also denies the Spirit’s drawing being necessary in salvation. Just give them the gospel and let them decide for themselves outside the Spirt’s influence. I can provide proof for both these assertions if you don’t believe me.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

They are pros at doing this VERY thing!
Then arguments ensue and poor them they are the victims!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

You guys are the ones treating the lost like victims, and not the rebellious ppl they really are. 🙄

 

[Melach]

And if you have time, why not consider former Calvinist sharing why they left Calvinism.

i like leighton flowers

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

You guys are the ones treating the lost like victims, and not the rebellious ppl they really are. 🙄

I'm not talking about unsaved" lost" people! I'm talking about " so called" believers!

 

[Magenta]

It's so strange to me to see my post dissected by someone who intersperses their projections onto it so as to the accuse me of saying what they wrote, imagined, was worthy of their ridicule.

In formal debate there's a term for that I'm sure.

Yeah, you have done that very thing also, and refused to acknowledge it even
when more than one person pointed out your stubbornly repeated error

 

[calibob]

And you're able to take comfort in its wisdom and understand its message? When you are not a member of the Reformed Theology church or a Calvinist?

Unfortunately, those two parties are led to believe first and foremost that they are Totally Depraved and thus are unable to do so.
Unless and until God anoints them with his Irresistible Grace.

But this is the thing about that. How would someone know they have that? What if they think they do becasue they think they understand what the scriptures are saying now? But they're wrong.

One of the other problems with TULIP is it is self fulfilling, self affirming, for the believer in it.

Someone can be the worst person ever and then they have this epiphany that they need Christ. They go to church, they read the Bible, they pray, they get baptized, they are saved!
They must be the elect.

But when TULIP and the Canon of Dort, aka the Five Articles Against the Remonstrants , particularly, arrived at to refute Arminius and Arminianism, provide a blueprint as to what it means to be one of the Elect, we read it is a graduation effect. Moving through life someone may think they are the Elect due to their growing in their faith, but yet, not until they are dead are they able to know for sure.

Canon of Dort Article 18 To those who murmur at the free grace of election and just severity of reprobation, we answer with the apostle: “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” (Rom. 9:20), and quote the language of our Savior: “Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own?” (Matt. 20:15). And therefore with holy adoration of these

mysteries, we exclaim in the words of the apostle: “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom. 11:33–36)


The true doctrine concerning election and rejection having been explained, the Synod rejects the errors of those who teach:

Rejection 1 That the will of God to save those who would believe and would persevere in faith and in the obedience of faith, is the whole and entire decree of election unto salvation, and that nothing else concerning this decree has been revealed in God's Word. For these deceive the simple and plainly contradict the Scriptures which declare that God will not only save those who will believe, but that He has also from eternity chosen certain particular persons to whom above others He in time will grant both faith in Christ and perseverance, as it is written: “I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world” (John 17:6). “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). And: “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” (Eph. 1:4).


Rejection 2That there are various kinds of election of God unto eternal life: the one general and indefinite, the other particular and definite; and that the latter in turn is either incomplete, revocable, nondecisive and conditional, or complete, irrevocable, decisive and absolute. Likewise: that there is one election unto faith and another unto salvation, so that election can be unto justifying faith without being a decisive election unto salvation. For this is a fancy of men’s minds, invented regardless of the Scriptures, whereby the doctrine of election is corrupted, and this golden chain of our salvation is broken: “Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).


Rejection 3That the good pleasure and purpose of God, of which Scripture makes mention in the doctrine of election, does not consist in this, that God chose certain persons rather than others, but in this, that He chose out of all possible conditions (among which are also th e works of the law), or out of the whole order of things, the act of faith which from its very nature is undeserving, as well as its incomplete obedience, as a condition of salvation, and that He would graciously consider this in itself as a complete obedience and count it worthy of the reward of eternal life. For by this injurious error the pleasure of God and the merits of Christ are made of none effect, and men are drawn away by useless questions from the truth of gracious justification and from the simplicity of Scripture, and this declaration of the apostle is charged as untrue: “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Tim. 1:9).

Whole Canon of Dort

I only trust the Bible. I am not a follower of anything newer than Revelations. After reading the Bible. And after reading the New testament many times except revelation which I've only read a few times, so far times. I checked to see which doctrines are closest to what I've come to believe by reading the Bible far more then everything else that I ever read put together. The verdict is Mennonite. Saved by Grace through faith not works. Period.

 

[calibob]

You guys are the ones treating the lost like victims, and not the rebellious ppl they really are. 🙄

Like you were never lost, rebellious, proud or self rightous? Pleeeeze!

 

[Whispered]

Agreed. My posts are shooting down the notion Augustine of Hippo started the reformed view of predestination and election. They were clearly taught by several others a couple centuries before he was born.

"All who love the Reformed faith should give thanks for Augustine. Through him, the Lord imparted to us a rich, enduring knowledge, especially of grace. His contribution to our understanding of grace is substantial, even foundational, for by grace are we saved.

But Reformed believers may want to consider his development of predestination greater, more important, and essential to our faith. Not because predestination itself is more important, or even because his development of it was so robust. Rather, please consider it because Augustine established the principle that without predestination, there is no grace by which we are saved. "
Reformed Free Publishing Association
Election of Grace: Augustine’s Doctrine of Predestination


By Langerak Bill

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Like you were never lost, rebellious, proud or self rightous? Pleeeeze!

That’s not what I said. @IFOLLOWHIM played the victim card. The lost are not victims, but rebellious, God-haters, self-righteous. I was even in that until God called me out of it by His effectual calling.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

i like leighton flowers

He’s a heretic who said knowing the Christ was a personal achievement.

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

That’s not what I said. @IFOLLOWHIM played the victim card. The lost are not victims, but rebellious, God-haters, self-righteous. I was even in that until God called me out of it by His effectual calling.

If your going to say I SAID SOMETHING be sure YOU get it right!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

i like leighton flowers

He also said that the Spirit wasn’t necessary when the gospel was presented to a lost person. He’s a heretic. He also compared us being saved to being choice meat. There was something in the choice meat that made it inherently better, and that attracts us to it. He then projected that analogy onto election, how God chooses to save ppl. That’s not election at all.

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

I'M NOBODY'S VICTIM! I AM AN OVÈRCOMÈR THROUGH JESUS! ....Yes I meant to yell that!

 

[Whispered]

You guys are the ones treating the lost like victims, and not the rebellious ppl they really are. 🙄

Well, you just shot own the image you wish to portray as one who is Calvinist. (Signature lines included). That's very good of you to step out and show the truth.

The lost are victims under TULIP.

They are made totally depraved by God. They are therefore incapable of being rebellious because rebellious indicates a trait in one who possess the free will to be in conformity and chooses instead to rebel.

This is not the case in Calvinism. All people are made totally depraved, unless or until God works on His pre-selected elect so as to impart to them His Irresistible Grace.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Keeping in mind that TULIP was also a response and refutation to Arminius and the Arminian, "LILAC"
L - Limited Depravity
I - I Choose Christ
L - Limitless Atonement
A - Arrestible Grace
C - Carnal Security


For readers consideration: (Title pasted as appears at link)
DOCTRINE OF ELECTION, PREDESTINATION AND FOREORDINATIONREFUTED ByProf WA Liebenberg

 

[Melach]

He also said that the Spirit wasn’t necessary when the gospel was presented to a lost person. He’s a heretic. He also compared us being saved to being choice meat. There was something in the choice meat that made it inherently better, and that attracts us to it. He then projected that analogy onto election, how God chooses to save ppl. That’s not election at all.

he isnt a heretic i have heard all his stuff and many of his debates. show me where he says the Spirit wasnt present when the gospel was given to an unbeliever and i will believe it.

 

[Whispered]

He’s a heretic who said knowing the Christ was a personal achievement.

Please provide a link to that quote.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Well, you just shot own the image you wish to portray as one who is Calvinist. (Signature lines included). That's very good of you to step out and show the truth.

The lost are victims under TULIP.

They are made totally depraved by God. They are therefore incapable of being rebellious because rebellious indicates a trait in one who possess the free will to be in conformity and chooses instead to rebel.

This is not the case in Calvinism. All people are made totally depraved, unless or until God works on His pre-selected elect so as to impart to them His Irresistible Grace.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Keeping in mind that TULIP was also a response and refutation to Arminius and the Arminian, "LILAC"
L - Limited Depravity
I - I Choose Christ
L - Limitless Atonement
A - Arrestible Grace
C - Carnal Security


For readers consideration: (Title pasted as appears at link)
DOCTRINE OF ELECTION, PREDESTINATION AND FOREORDINATIONREFUTED ByProf WA Liebenberg

They are not made totally depraved by God. Another strawman you erected to tear down. They are born totally depraved via the fall of Adam.

I’m going to consider all of you Don Quixote’s. The ones you are really fighting are the windmills in your minds.

 

[UnderGrace]

I would submit that the meaning of Elect, per the Calvinist doctrine and the Reformed that ascribe to the TULIP formula is precisely what could be construed as a stretch.
To think that the Creator of all things premeditated whom He would save from what would have to be His premeditation of the fall, and all this prior to creating anything at all, and so as to also, and this is key, predetermine those whom He did not predetermine worthy of His Election would perish as planned by that Creator of all things, is Elitist doctrine.

Not only does it form in its theology an immoral sadistic creator that premeditates a fall after predetermining whom he'd save from it, but it also teaches that those whom that deity did not plan to save through his election would die damned due to his having created the construct that allowed first, through premeditation, the fall of humankind.

We're told our thoughts are not as God's thoughts and God's thoughts are not like unto our own. Calvinism, RT that ascribe to TULIP, is clearly man's thoughts. I pre=planned whom I'd save and then I pre-arranged through my own creation of it, that which humans would need to be saved from. All the while having also pre-determined the human creation that needed saving would be totally incapable of entering my grace or having faith in me so as to be saved from the fate I pre-planned, pre-arranged, for the non-elect, unless or until I made them to enter my grace, have faith, so as to be the elect I pre-arranged by name!


In a world where humans in the beginning were created in the image and likeness of God, that construct encapsulated by TULIP, tells us humans at birth do not have a chance of being good. Unless they are the one's TULIP's god pre-arranged to be put into god's grace by god, and then made to have faith in god by god. Because first and foremost that god made everyone, even the Elect who were not yet changed by god's will as pertains to obtaining grace, and faith, would be totally depraved. In a world where that same god pre-arranged sin to enter in.

That god is something we need to save ourselves from!

TULIP
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.

Not really what I was addressing, perhaps you could go back and ask for clarification if I was not clear.

 

[Whispered]

Yeah, you have done that very thing also, and refused to acknowledge it even
when more than one person pointed out your stubbornly repeated error

Where? Post the proof please.