Is unconditional election biblical?

[7seasrekeyed]

Except in the case of the Calvinist being Totally Depraved, they are incapable of understanding the sermon.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

it's such a make believe system

first of all you are too depraved to believe in God

so then God has to kick you into the kingdom because you have no choice

you have no choice cause you are totally depraved

then God has to...well you get the idea

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Shall we look to what John Calvin said in his Institutes of the Christian Religion?

The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 4 19.18:

“To designate the Holy Spirit and his gifts by oil is trite and common (Ps. 45:8). But the gift of healing disappeared with the other miraculous powers which the Lord was pleased to give for a time, that it might render the new preaching of the gospel for ever wonderful. Therefore, even were we to grant that anointing was a sacrament of those powers which were then administered by the hands of the apostles, it pertains not to us, to whom no such powers have been committed.”​

(John Calvin's)Commentary on Ephesians 4:11:

“It deserves attention, also, that, of the five offices which are here enumerated, not more than the last two are intended to be perpetual. Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets were bestowed on the church for a limited time only, ― except in those cases where religion has fallen into decay, and evangelists are raised up in an extraordinary manner, to restore the pure doctrine which had been lost. But without Pastors and Teachers there can be no government of the church.”​

More reading-source of excerpts: https://covenanterreformation.wordpress.com/2015/03/26/was-john-calvin-a-continuationist/

oh yeah

in case people don't know, the Calvinists are also cessationists


manmade religion kills

the Spirit gives life

I cannot imagine the nightmares populating Calvins' dark hours

 

[posthuman]

How many piercings?

14 if you don't count the ones in my heart

i have't worn anything in them for a long time, and the ones that weren't through cartilage are all healed over.

 

[Whispered]

it's such a make believe system

first of all you are too depraved to believe in God

so then God has to kick you into the kingdom because you have no choice

you have no choice cause you are totally depraved

then God has to...well you get the idea

Then God has to make you have faith in Him, so you can then understand His words to you. But only after all that.
I get the idea alright.

Calvinism's god is God's adversary. How do I dare say that? Because Calvinism teaches the antithesis of what God said. Calvinism is actually historically two things. Three if you agree it is of the Devil.
1. Invented to respond to Pelagianism. Calvin was a Catholic first.
2. A reworking of Gnosticism. Especially as pertains to Calvinism's teaching concerning sin.

 

[Whispered]

oh yeah

in case people don't know, the Calvinists are also cessationists


manmade religion kills

the Spirit gives life

I cannot imagine the nightmares populating Calvins' dark hours

That's because you like your rest.

I cannot imagine living and dying as a Calvinist.
Since I entered these threads that pertain to Calvinism and the TULIP formula as is particular to Reformed Theology, I have prayed to my Father that all Calvinists and or Reformed Theology faithful here who also participate in these threads, come to knowledge of the truth. And in part due to the efforts expended in these threads to counter Calvinism and RT theology with the message of the truth of God in Christ.

 

[John146]

That's because you like your rest.

I cannot imagine living and dying as a Calvinist.
Since I entered these threads that pertain to Calvinism and the TULIP formula as is particular to Reformed Theology, I have prayed to my Father that all Calvinists and or Reformed Theology faithful here who also participate in these threads, come to knowledge of the truth. And in part due to the efforts expended in these threads to counter Calvinism and RT theology with the message of the truth of God in Christ.

Calvinists don’t bother me that much as long as it doesn’t hinder them spreading the gospel and that their children aren’t automatically “elect” as well.

 

[Whispered]

The five solas are what saved ppl need to adhere to. The lost can’t grasp the scriptures per 1 Corinthians 1:18 & 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Thank you for your brevity. I myself am not so inclined.
However, that being said, then invoking the five Solas as part of the Calvinist theology or even Reformed Theology would have to be error. This due to Sola Fide, Faith Alone. Justification by faith only, not by works.

The state of Total Depravity precludes a people who accept that identity of Totally Depraved from holding faith.

 

[posthuman]

When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

i've been mulling over this, John 6:5-6, for much of the afternoon, in the back of my mind, while i was working.
He asked to test Philip, not because He didn't know.
not because He didn't know what to do.

it reminded me, of course, of the garden when He asked where Adam & the Woman were, and who told them they were naked, and if they had eaten of the tree. not because He didn't know. there, He asks like a prosecutor - entering testimony into the record. is it the same here?
the word 'test' here is the same one in Matthew 4, when He went into the wilderness and had the famous confrontation with Satan. some translations call it 'tempt' there - but that can't be right. God is not tempted. Satan may have thought he was tempting the Son, but i don't think Satan knew who he was talking to at that point. i don't think he realized, yet. there, it's really Christ being 'tested' -- and not in the sense that He might fail and it needed to be determined. more like, He was being 'proven' - the way that i 'test' lab equipment after i calibrate it: to show that the calibration was successful. i'm not expecting a failure; i'm demonstrating what's true.

same here, Christ isn't tempting Philip. 'let no one say they are tempted by God' -- Christ is proving something by asking this. He's demonstrating something.

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

here in vv. 8-9, i am sure He also knew what Andrew would say. so He's not only demonstrating something about Philip but something about Andrew: something about faith, and trust.

maybe Andrew's closer, because he came up with some food, but Philip just came up with futility. but Andrew has a sense of futility, too - 'but how far will they go among so many?'
oh look, total depravity. none of them have it right -- none of them but Jesus. Jesus just had them sit down in the grass, gave thanks, and commenced with the distributing.

grass - which all mankind is like, growing for a season, then quickly fading and turning to dust. that's what they all sat on, while He took a tiny, logically completely insufficient amount, and fed everyone there with it -- made them full, so that there were leftovers. and He said, collect all the remnant; let none be left.
and He already knew what He was going to do - He said this to test Philip. Philip, who had the wrong answer. God, who knew Philip did. what's He doing? condemning Philip? no, i don't think so. i think, teaching Philip. and Andrew. and all of us.
oh look, preservation of the saints.

Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
(John 6:14)
​

does His word go out and return to Him without accomplishing its purpose?
lol! no, it does not.
oh look, the irrevocable & effectual drawing of the Father

 

[posthuman]

The state of Total Depravity precludes a people who accept that identity of Totally Depraved from holding faith.

no it doesn't; it only indicates that it must be a gift from God, not of merit, but of mercy.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him
(John 6:44)
​

isn't it right there? ↑

 

[Whispered]

Calvinists don’t bother me that much as long as it doesn’t hinder them spreading the gospel and that their children aren’t automatically “elect” as well.

That's precisely what they believe.
The Cannons of Dort
Article 17: The Salvation of the Infants of Believers
Since we must make judgments about God's will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.

 

[posthuman]

Calvinists don’t bother me that much as long as it doesn’t hinder them spreading the gospel

has anyone actually ever heard a Calvinist say that?
in my experience it's only been Arminians making the accusation, never the Calvinists giving any such advice.

 

[posthuman]

That's precisely what they believe.
The Cannons of Dort
Article 17: The Salvation of the Infants of Believers
Since we must make judgments about God's will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.

it comes from this:

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
(1 Corinthians 7:14)
​

what do you think this means?

 

[Whispered]

no it doesn't; it only indicates that it must be a gift from God, not of merit, but of mercy.

I would contend Godly mercy would preclude God creating in His image and likeness a world full of Totally Depraved people. I would further contend the greatest gift God could give such a world is to have not predetermined the creation of a world full of Totally Depraved people.

The tenet that is Total Depravity precludes the Totally Depraved from seeking God.
Furthermore, a gift is not a gift if the recipient of said gift has no choice in the matter. But rather, the one giving the gift makes them to be in His grace, and then makes them to hold faith in Him. Because they were made first to not be able to hold faith in the message of the cross. Which was given to the world, the cross, due to God's grace in that He wished none should perish in their sins, but that all come to repentance in Christ Jesus.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

​

(John 6:44) ​

​

isn't it right there? ↑

No, it is not. Not as you believe.

Jesus was The Word made flesh.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God.
God draws people to Himself through the message of the cross. That is accomplished through ministry. And the Bible in itself is ministry.
That message tells people who are sinners, that they do not have to die in their sins, but can repent and be washed clean of what is actually their worldly egocentric ideology and auto-theism. (self as god. From the Greek, "theos" meaning, God. And "autos", meaning self.) Thinking this life is all there is and carnal and hedonistic passions must be fed while here so as to enjoy a prosperous life.

The message of the cross shows that while the flesh is weak, since it died on the cross before witnesses, the spirit of God to redeem, bring to life that which is dead in the flesh, proves there is life after flesh.
Which was parable made real when Jesus walked out of the tomb after three days.

The number 3 is used 467 times in the Bible. It pictures completeness, though to a lesser degree than 7. The meaning of this number derives from the fact that it is the first of four spiritually perfect numerals (the others being 7, 10 and 12). The 3 righteous patriarchs before the flood were Abel, Enoch and Noah.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nope! Been there done that!
Not to be judgemental, but I'd rather discuss God with a pierced tattooed person than a prissy hold.your nose high church goer!

I've met few, if any church goers who hold their nose up high and act prissy.

But I've met many spiritual giants in their own mind who don't go to church (usually they deem themselves way better than those who do, which is contrary to obedience to Christ; Philippians 2:3) like you and act exactly the way they've described others.

 

[preacher4truth]

I owe them nothing but to love as Jesus does!

Which, actually, you just don't do.

 

[Whispered]

it comes from this:

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. ​

(1 Corinthians 7:14) ​

​

what do you think this means?

Not what you think it means.

The Bible tells us we should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.
14.Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? The Book of 2nd Corinthians chapter 6

In that passage of 1 Corinthians 7. what is being said is, if one spouse is a believer and there are children in the household, the relationship is made legitimate, sanctified, because one unbeliever is yoked with one partner who has faith . And this in turn makes the children sanctified of that union, legitimate, rather than as illegitimate children.
The preponderating factor there is that the believing spouses faith insures a legitimate marriage.
Psalms 127:3 - Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.

1 Corinthians 7:12-16 12To the rest I say this (I, not the LORD): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

It should be noted that Jesus did not teach that Salvation comes by proximity to a believer.
If that were true, any person who is curious and enters into a church on Sunday is automatically saved due to crossing that threshold and being among Christians.

 

[Melach]

This is a flat out lie. Repent. Now I remember why I had you on ignore. Won’t make that mistake again of reading your posts.

on closer look. how often do arminians like methodist and pentecostals talk about arminianism or jacobus arminius? i never heard it. not even once. but calvinists talk about calvinism and calvin all the time. try again

 

[limmuwd]

. your idea of "good, kind hearted,, generous, compassionate, loving, people" that aren't born again, is from a purely human perspective of what "good" is. God calls that type of human goodness FILTHY RAGS.

Curious where you get the idea that God calls our "righteous deeds" filthy rags?

Isaiah the prophet laments concerning the religious leaders of the his day in Isaiah 64:6, but neither God, nor His Son Jesus, ever said that.

In fact, God calls many people righteous in the Scripture based on what they did!

 

[Melach]

Shall we look to what John Calvin said in his Institutes of the Christian Religion?

The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 4 19.18:

“To designate the Holy Spirit and his gifts by oil is trite and common (Ps. 45:8). But the gift of healing disappeared with the other miraculous powers which the Lord was pleased to give for a time, that it might render the new preaching of the gospel for ever wonderful. Therefore, even were we to grant that anointing was a sacrament of those powers which were then administered by the hands of the apostles, it pertains not to us, to whom no such powers have been committed.”​

(John Calvin's)Commentary on Ephesians 4:11:

“It deserves attention, also, that, of the five offices which are here enumerated, not more than the last two are intended to be perpetual. Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets were bestowed on the church for a limited time only, ― except in those cases where religion has fallen into decay, and evangelists are raised up in an extraordinary manner, to restore the pure doctrine which had been lost. But without Pastors and Teachers there can be no government of the church.”​

More reading-source of excerpts: https://covenanterreformation.wordpress.com/2015/03/26/was-john-calvin-a-continuationist/

reason that jokester calvin wrote that was because he was all about state church. as was most europe in time. even protestants

state church usually its corrupt. atleast here where i live they support everything evil and even funded the pride rally as church. when he says religion has fallen into decay it means people dont in public pretend to be christians anymore like state wants.

 

[Melach]

Calvinism's god is God's adversary. How do I dare say that? Because Calvinism teaches the antithesis of what God said. Calvinism is actually historically two things. Three if you agree it is of the Devil.
1. Invented to respond to Pelagianism. Calvin was a Catholic first.
2. A reworking of Gnosticism. Especially as pertains to Calvinism's teaching concerning sin.

i also saw the link between gnosticism and calvinism. all early church fathers belief in free will. all of them battle for it against gnostics who believed as calvinists on free will thats why they pressed it so much

pelagianism is made up that doesnt exist anymore. nobody believes like he did. and on many things he was even right and behaved better than the state roman church and augustine.
this is again same, all calvinists speak about is calvinism arminianism pelagianism semi-pelagianism and we the normal believers dont mention those unless talking with calvinists. because we dont care about pidgeon holing us to these heresy camps.

why does God have to send strong delusion to people who refuse the truth if they are already unable to hear and believe? its a stupid doctrine. really stupid.