Is unconditional election biblical?

[notuptome]

No need to comment more on why decisional Spiritual Birth is so distasteful.

JESUS told us what we MUST do to be saved. Keep every commandment since birth and sell ALL of your possessions and give them to the poor. Who here has done that?

None? Then thank God HE gave us the faith to believe in Him!

Giving us the faith to believe is giving the ability to choose. Adam chose to sin in the garden. All men choose to sin. Gods grace gives us the choice to choose Christ. John 3:19-20 Jesus is clearly stating that there is a choice to be made. John 16:7-11 clearly shows God through the Holy Spirit moving men to a point of decision.

Do not place on God the responsibility that men hold for their own sinfulness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If unconditional election were true, then there is no need for missions. The eternal destiny of all has already been decided. We are not God - we cannot help him in His work - the work is done! Just go home, and eat, drink, and by merry! God has already decided your eternal destiny!

God ordains both the means and the end. The means is the preaching of the gospel and discipleship, and the end is salvation.

Jesus himself commanded that his disciples go out and preach the gospel to all nations, and to disciple those saved individuals (Matt 28:19-20).

In the preaching of the gospel, believers are brought into the community of the Church. All of this is part of God's design.

There is nothing inconsistent about missions and Reformed theology.

However, there's a lot of cause for frustration if Reformed theology is not true. Since Reformed people believe all the elect WILL be reached, and that they WILL all be saved, the Reformed person can have confidence that his endeavors will result in the salvation of the elect.

The non-Reformed person doesn't have the same confidence. He doesn't believe God is sovereign in all things.

 

[Chester]

The non-Reformed person doesn't have the same confidence. He doesn't believe God is sovereign in all things.

Really???? I am non-Reformed and I believe God is completely sovereign!

 

[Chester]

William Carey: "The Consecrated Cobbler" – Missionary to India, 1793-1833
by Julia H. Johnston

There was a young man long ago in England who asked some ministers if the Church had done all it could for the heathen, and received this answer: "Young man, sit down. When God pleases to convert the heathen world, He will do it without your help or mine." Who was the venturesome young man? William Carey.

The sad results of Reformed predestination teaching . . .

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Really???? I am non-Reformed and I believe God is completely sovereign!

Do you believe that God sovereignly decreed your salvation, based on no merits of your own?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

William Carey: "The Consecrated Cobbler" – Missionary to India, 1793-1833
by Julia H. Johnston

There was a young man long ago in England who asked some ministers if the Church had done all it could for the heathen, and received this answer: "Young man, sit down. When God pleases to convert the heathen world, He will do it without your help or mine." Who was the venturesome young man? William Carey.

The sad results of Reformed predestination teaching . . .

William Carey was Reformed.

And, he had total confidence in God's sovereignty despite the very difficult circumstances he faced. That's where his Reformed position gave him the strength to persevere.

By the way, I know some missionaries operating in Muslim countries today, and they are Reformed. One told me that you have to be Reformed to persevere in those conditions.

The misunderstandings of one individual (the older man) do not make the entire theology flawed.

Reformed believers generally know that God decrees both the means AND the end. This man was an exception.

By the way, some of the greatest evangelists were Reformed. Whitfield, Brainerd, and Edwards were all Reformed.

It is true that the emotionalism group were Arminians...the ones who went to the Frontier and focused more on emotionalism rather than solid biblical teachings. Some were even Pelagians (Finney).

Finney's converts didn't last very long usually though. He was a heretic and he didn't give them the discipleship they needed because he didn't know enough about the Bible himself to teach someone else.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

William Carey: "The Consecrated Cobbler" – Missionary to India, 1793-1833
by Julia H. Johnston

There was a young man long ago in England who asked some ministers if the Church had done all it could for the heathen, and received this answer: "Young man, sit down. When God pleases to convert the heathen world, He will do it without your help or mine." Who was the venturesome young man? William Carey.

The sad results of Reformed predestination teaching . . .

By the way, bringing up one Reformed person's claim like that, and acting as if it is normative, is like me bringing something Benny Hinn (a free-willer) says, and claiming it is normal for all Arminians.

For instance, Benny said there are nine persons in the Trinity...if I said all Arminians believed that, because Benny Hinn said it, would that be true?

The hilarious thing is that you don't realize that William Carey was a Reformed Baptist In your mad scramble to insult Reformed theology, you didn't realize that.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Really???? I am non-Reformed and I believe God is completely sovereign!

and there you have it

it seems we are being told what we believe even though we do not believe that at all

sounds almost like predestintion of the thoughts or something

so arbitary and condescending

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

and there you have it

it seems we are being told what we believe even though we do not believe that at all

sounds almost like predestintion of the thoughts or something

so arbitary and condescending

Again, is God sovereign over every person in all respects, including salvation?

If not, then he is not sovereign over all matters.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Again, is God sovereign over every person in all respects, including salvation?

If not, then he is not sovereign over all matters.

well, if that is the best 'proof' you can come up with, then why bother to pray at all?

and yet the scritpure states that the prayers of a righteous man (person) avails much

maybe translate that into Calvanese so we can all be enlightened

not holding my breath

 

[fredoheaven]

Wow, 50/50 on this one. I'm surprised, figured the majority here were Calvinist.

Do I need to break the tie?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

well, if that is the best 'proof' you can come up with, then why bother to pray at all?

and yet the scritpure states that the prayers of a righteous man (person) avails much

maybe translate that into Calvanese so we can all be enlightened

not holding my breath

A Reformed person prays because he knows God is sovereign and does in fact change peoples' minds.

Changing others' minds is not hands-off like it is in free will theology.

God ordains both means and ends.

He tells his people to pray for salvation of others, and he ordains that some will be saved.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's a good message on unconditional election. It is by Brian Borgman, and the audio is called Grace Conceived: Unconditional Election if the link doesn't work:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1025071352154

 

[Gregoryp]

I'll admit that I am a simple woman but these thoughts come to mind...

Unconditional election points to extreme arrogance... it points to one thinking God, the One who has no favorites, picks you, regardless anything.

Unconditional election would have me always wondering if I was one of the chosen, knowing no matter what, it is a miss and hit scenario and there is no amount of repentance that can save me, if I am not elect. How do you know for sure you are elect, only God is all knowing?

Unconditional election leaves one pondering.. if everything is already fixed, why bother with this argument, this thread, praying or evangelism?

Unconditional election makes our all loving God and His choice to give His only begotten Son not so loving after all. In fact, it seems to make that heavenly selfless action a waste of time. Those who are elected are saved before and after His sacrifice of atonement. God elected, nothing has any bearing right, it is unconditional?

I don't know where the line is, and I agree Salvation is the Lords, that He gets all credit. I know He foreknew and predestined, I can't deny that passage.

But I can not deny John 3:16 either and other verses that point to Him wanting all of us saved.

I just want to spend more time pointing to Him, talking about Him and His love for us all, rather to spend great amount of time and energy focusing on His elect or to the doctrine of unconditional election. He is more than His clay and His creation, so much more.

So often it seems folks are so much more interested in their belief systems rather than in Him. He is way, only Him.

Maybe I just do not understand enough yet, but I pray my focus will always be Him!

Some are elected, but all have free will to choose to obey and follow him. Those that are elected, are usually set up to do very important things later in life. This is I know believe me.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Some are elected, but all have free will to choose to obey and follow him. Those that are elected, are usually set up to do very important things later in life. This is I know believe me.

Are you some Pentecostal/charismatic guy who claims he's one of the special ones who has been elected, but the rest are not?

The individuals I have heard who claim such things are Pentecostals or charismatics, and claim they are the "elect", part of the top tier of Christianity, and the rest "may" have a chance at salvation

This is a two-tier salvation system, and I reject it. I heard it from a charismatic preacher in the chat room part, and it's obvious he thinks he's one of the top tier apostle guys.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I would suggest this entire series for a good exposure to Reformed theology.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....th&keyworddesc=Introduction+to+Reformed+Faith

It is a set of series called "Introduction to Reformed Faith" by Brian Borgman.

As I have said, this theology is really misrepresented on this site. If you want something authoritative, listen to it.

Personally, I consider free-willer theology to be garbage.

 

[CharliRenee]

Guy who claims he's one of the special ones who has been elected, but the rest are not?

Isn't that what you believe?

 

[Gregoryp]

Guy who claims he's one of the special ones who has been elected, but the rest are not?

Isn't that what you believe?

but always remember, salvation is available to everyone, he died on the cross that none shall perish. And just because some are chosen, doesn't make there souls anymore valuable than anyone else. Does Jesus put more importance on a 747 pilot over the guy who cleans the toilets in the airport? Of course not. Does the pilot have a much more responsible position? Yes of course.

 

[Chester]

but always remember, salvation is available to everyone, he died on the cross that none shall perish. And just because some are chosen, doesn't make there souls anymore valuable than anyone else. Does Jesus put more importance on a 747 pilot over the guy who cleans the toilets in the airport? Of course not. Does the pilot have a much more responsible position? Yes of course.

If you are a Reformed Calvinist salvation is not available to everyone. Jesus died only for the elect and the rest have no chance of salvation.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

A Reformed person prays because he knows God is sovereign and does in fact change peoples' minds.

Changing others' minds is not hands-off like it is in free will theology.

God ordains both means and ends.

He tells his people to pray for salvation of others, and he ordains that some will be saved.

Who are the "others' to whom we are to pray for that will be saved eternally? Is not all of the elect secured by Christ's death on the cross? I can understand that we should pray for the elect to be saved (delivered) from a lack of knowledge, as Romans 10 suggests, but that is not eternal deliverance. It is a deliverance we receive here in this world, just as you and I received when through our studies were revealed a more perfect knowledge of the gospel. Some of the salvation scriptures are not referencing eternal salvation.