Is Repentance part of the Gospel?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Some church organizations claim that repentance is not part of the gospel, and should not be mentioned.

I believe that their intention is to get as many people saved as they can, but in the process, are they filling the pews with goats who have not been born-again? Or, rather, are their pews ultimately empty because goats stay home, while still thinking they are believers?

So, I suppose the first question is, what is repentance?

Here's my definition, which I believe is biblical.

Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation. Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin. They describe the same motion. We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ. These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

Before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful. We embrace sin as a way of life. We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts. When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Repentance, like faith, is an intellectual understanding that that sin is wrong, an emotional approval of the teachings of scripture regarding sin (a sorrow for sin and hatred of it), and a personal decision to turn from it (a renouncing of sin and a decision of the will to forsake it and lead a life of obedience to Christ instead.

I borrowed parts of this definition from teachers that I enjoy.

Anyways, notice that I don't define repentance as meaning that someone needs to clean up their lives before coming to Christ, because I think that is impossible until one is united with Christ. It is, however, a fundamental turning away from one's life of sin in terms of orientation, and toward obedience to Christ.

I believe this is brought about by regeneration, and doesn't cause regeneration, unlike many here, who believe that regeneration doesn't occur until after salvation.

But, that isn't the basic question. My basic question is, how is repentance defined, and is faith and repentance part of the gospel message?

I know that some groups, particularly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and those associated with Free Grace Movement, and the non-Reformed majority of Southern Baptists, don't even think that this heartfelt repentance and turning away from one's sinful orientation is part of the saved person's experience necessarily. They believe that simple intellectual assent to the reality of Jesus' death for their behalf is all that's involved in receiving salvation.

Groups like this lower the bar so that as many people can be saved as possible. They don't even want to discuss sin and repentance. They focus the conversation on how much God loves the person, and the decision to place their faith in Him, with no mention of repentance.

Some believe that if they can talk the person into accepting Christ, then repentance will come later. There doesn't need to be any indication that the person is broken up about their sin condition.

Personally, I think this simply fills the pews with goats for a while, and the church ends up being a bunch of goats who think they have salvation when they do not. And, if God is drawing someone, they are going to be focused on their sin condition anyways. The Holy Spirit convicts one of sinfulness and brings them to the awareness of their need for Christ and deliverance from their sins.

And, if someone hasn't reached the point where they are serious about their sins as a professing believer, they may want to consider whether they are actually saved.

What do you think?

 

[Dino246]

False is the "gospel" that excludes repentance.

 

[stonesoffire]

Agreed, is false teaching.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We can never proclaim we are good or have tried to be good, or lived a good life in the “light” of truth. The gospel.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Acts 3:19-23, " 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’"

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Luke 5:31-32, " 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Acts 17:30-31, " 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Luke 24:47-48, " 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Mat 3:8, "“Bear, therefore, fruits worthy of repentance,"

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Some church organizations claim that repentance is not part of the gospel, and should not be mentioned.

I believe that their intention is to get as many people saved as they can, but in the process, are they filling the pews with goats who have not been born-again? Or, rather, are their pews ultimately empty because goats stay home, while still thinking they are believers?

So, I suppose the first question is, what is repentance?

Here's my definition, which I believe is biblical.

Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation. Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin. They describe the same motion. We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ. These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

Before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful. We embrace sin as a way of life. We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts. When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Repentance, like faith, is an intellectual understanding that that sin is wrong, an emotional approval of the teachings of scripture regarding sin (a sorrow for sin and hatred of it), and a personal decision to turn from it (a renouncing of sin and a decision of the will to forsake it and lead a life of obedience to Christ instead.

I borrowed parts of this definition from teachers that I enjoy.

Anyways, notice that I don't define repentance as meaning that someone needs to clean up their lives before coming to Christ, because I think that is impossible until one is united with Christ. It is, however, a fundamental turning away from one's life of sin in terms of orientation, and toward obedience to Christ.

I believe this is brought about by regeneration, and doesn't cause regeneration, unlike many here, who believe that regeneration doesn't occur until after salvation.

But, that isn't the basic question. My basic question is, how is repentance defined, and is faith and repentance part of the gospel message?

I know that some groups, particularly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and those associated with Free Grace Movement, and the non-Reformed majority of Southern Baptists, don't even think that this heartfelt repentance and turning away from one's sinful orientation is part of the saved person's experience necessarily. They believe that simple intellectual assent to the reality of Jesus' death for their behalf is all that's involved in receiving salvation.

Groups like this lower the bar so that as many people can be saved as possible. They don't even want to discuss sin and repentance. They focus the conversation on how much God loves the person, and the decision to place their faith in Him, with no mention of repentance.

Some believe that if they can talk the person into accepting Christ, then repentance will come later. There doesn't need to be any indication that the person is broken up about their sin condition.

Personally, I think this simply fills the pews with goats for a while, and the church ends up being a bunch of goats who think they have salvation when they do not. And, if God is drawing someone, they are going to be focused on their sin condition anyways. The Holy Spirit convicts one of sinfulness and brings them to the awareness of their need for Christ and deliverance from their sins.

And, if someone hasn't reached the point where they are serious about their sins as a professing believer, they may want to consider whether they are actually saved.

What do you think?

Yes, the Gospel includes faith and repentance, but neither is the cause of your eternal salvation, but a product of being born again.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Acts 3:19-23, " 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’"

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

The kingdom of heaven is not eternal heaven, but is in fact Christ's church. There are many names in the scriptures used to describe Christ's church, such as, kingdom of heaven, church of God, church of Christ, church of the first born, the new Jerusalem, the church in the wilderness, kingdom of his dear Son. Jesus is not coming back to set up his kingdom. it was here in the Apostles day. Matt 16:28, Verily I say unto you, There be SOME STANDING HERE, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

The kingdom of heaven is not eternal heaven, but is in fact Christ's church. There are many names in the scriptures used to describe Christ's church, such as, kingdom of heaven, church of God, church of Christ, church of the first born, the new Jerusalem, the church in the wilderness, kingdom of his dear Son. Jesus is not coming back to set up his kingdom. it was here in the Apostles day. Matt 16:28, Verily I say unto you, There be SOME STANDING HERE, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:26-28, " 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Revelation 21:5-8, " 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

There will be a resurrection:

Psalms 16:8-11, " 8 I have set the LORD always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. 10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. 11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Daniel 12:1-3, " 1 “Now at that time Miḵa’ĕl shall stand up, the great head who is standing over the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation, until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book, 2 and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth wake up, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches, everlasting abhorrence. 3 “And those who have insight shall shine like the brightness of the expanse, and those who lead many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The kingdom is eternal:

Revelation 21:1-4, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Psalm 37:29, “The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell in it forever.”

Revelation 21:9-27, " 9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Daniel 2:44-45, " 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

Daniel 7:27-28, " 27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’ 28 “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.”

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, the Gospel includes faith and repentance, but neither is the cause of your eternal salvation, but a product of being born again.

Once again you have put the cart before the horse. So here is the biblical sequence:

1. Faith
2. Repentance
3 a. Justification, the remission of sins
3 b. The gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, the gift of Christ
4. Regeneration
5. Sanctification
6. Glorification

 

[garee]

Yes, the Gospel includes faith and repentance, but neither is the cause of your eternal salvation, but a product of being born again.

I think the best definition is revealed in Jeremiah 31:17-19

We have Christ as our confidence. . If he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it . Phillipians1:6

I would say both..... the cause and continuing product "the effect.". Like all things . . Christ must to the first works .We cannot seek after him through the imaginations of our owns hearts (no faith) It provides no understanding by which we could seek after God . Our hearts as the seat of the imagination is damaged without repair .

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Romans3:10-11

In this case turning, comforting, repenting us to hear him as our first love our experience in believing in a God not seen .

After he turn us working in us to both will and do his good pleasure being comforted . then we comfort or repent our owns self because of our childish activity. Below he used a Bullock to represent natural unconverted mankind

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

 

[Whispered]

Some church organizations claim that repentance is not part of the gospel, and should not be mentioned.

I believe that their intention is to get as many people saved as they can, but in the process, are they filling the pews with goats who have not been born-again? Or, rather, are their pews ultimately empty because goats stay home, while still thinking they are believers?

So, I suppose the first question is, what is repentance?

Here's my definition, which I believe is biblical.

Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation. Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin. They describe the same motion. We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ. These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

Before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful. We embrace sin as a way of life. We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts. When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Repentance, like faith, is an intellectual understanding that that sin is wrong, an emotional approval of the teachings of scripture regarding sin (a sorrow for sin and hatred of it), and a personal decision to turn from it (a renouncing of sin and a decision of the will to forsake it and lead a life of obedience to Christ instead.

I borrowed parts of this definition from teachers that I enjoy.

Anyways, notice that I don't define repentance as meaning that someone needs to clean up their lives before coming to Christ, because I think that is impossible until one is united with Christ. It is, however, a fundamental turning away from one's life of sin in terms of orientation, and toward obedience to Christ.

I believe this is brought about by regeneration, and doesn't cause regeneration, unlike many here, who believe that regeneration doesn't occur until after salvation.

But, that isn't the basic question. My basic question is, how is repentance defined, and is faith and repentance part of the gospel message?

I know that some groups, particularly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and those associated with Free Grace Movement, and the non-Reformed majority of Southern Baptists, don't even think that this heartfelt repentance and turning away from one's sinful orientation is part of the saved person's experience necessarily. They believe that simple intellectual assent to the reality of Jesus' death for their behalf is all that's involved in receiving salvation.

Groups like this lower the bar so that as many people can be saved as possible. They don't even want to discuss sin and repentance. They focus the conversation on how much God loves the person, and the decision to place their faith in Him, with no mention of repentance.

Some believe that if they can talk the person into accepting Christ, then repentance will come later. There doesn't need to be any indication that the person is broken up about their sin condition.

Personally, I think this simply fills the pews with goats for a while, and the church ends up being a bunch of goats who think they have salvation when they do not. And, if God is drawing someone, they are going to be focused on their sin condition anyways. The Holy Spirit convicts one of sinfulness and brings them to the awareness of their need for Christ and deliverance from their sins.

And, if someone hasn't reached the point where they are serious about their sins as a professing believer, they may want to consider whether they are actually saved.

What do you think?

For our information so as to better address your OP, please share the names of those church organizations which claim that repentance is not part of the gospel and repentence should not be mentioned. Thank you in advance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Once again you have put the cart before the horse. So here is the biblical sequence:

1. Faith
2. Repentance
3 a. Justification, the remission of sins
3 b. The gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, the gift of Christ
4. Regeneration
5. Sanctification
6. Glorification

Could you give me some scripture reference for each of your 6 sequences? Thank you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think the best definition is revealed in Jeremiah 31:17-19

We have Christ as our confidence. . If he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it . Phillipians1:6

I would say both..... the cause and continuing product "the effect.". Like all things . . Christ must to the first works .We cannot seek after him through the imaginations of our owns hearts (no faith) It provides no understanding by which we could seek after God . Our hearts as the seat of the imagination is damaged without repair .

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Romans3:10-11

In this case turning, comforting, repenting us to hear him as our first love our experience in believing in a God not seen .

After he turn us working in us to both will and do his good pleasure being comforted . then we comfort or repent our owns self because of our childish activity. Below he used a Bullock to represent natural unconverted mankind

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

I am having a hard time understanding how God (a Spirit) can make the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, understand spiritual things, that he cannot discern, enough to turn, receive comfort from spiritually explaining a spiritual law that they have broken, when they cannot discern, spiritually, that they have broken a law. To me, the scriptures will not harmonize unless the natural man has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as stated in Eph 2. Can you explain?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Matthew 16:26-28, " 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Revelation 21:5-8, " 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

There will be a resurrection:

Psalms 16:8-11, " 8 I have set the LORD always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. 10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. 11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Daniel 12:1-3, " 1 “Now at that time Miḵa’ĕl shall stand up, the great head who is standing over the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation, until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book, 2 and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth wake up, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches, everlasting abhorrence. 3 “And those who have insight shall shine like the brightness of the expanse, and those who lead many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The kingdom is eternal:

Revelation 21:1-4, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Psalm 37:29, “The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell in it forever.”

Revelation 21:9-27, " 9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Daniel 2:44-45, " 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

Daniel 7:27-28, " 27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’ 28 “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.”

Who were the people "standing there" when Matthew made that statement in Matt 16:28? Are they still living now and will they still be alive when Jesus comes at the last day?

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Who were the people "standing there" when Matthew made that statement in Matt 16:28? Are they still living now and will they still be alive when Jesus comes at the last day?

I think you misunderstand what Jesus is saying.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Does that mean ANYONE who guards His word will never physically die?

No.

Jesus is talking about the true death, the second death; "their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”"

Matthew 16:26-28, " 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Revelation 21:5-8, " 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

There will be a resurrection:

Psalms 16:8-11, " 8 I have set the LORD always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. 10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. 11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Daniel 12:1-3, " 1 “Now at that time Miḵa’ĕl shall stand up, the great head who is standing over the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation, until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book, 2 and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth wake up, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches, everlasting abhorrence. 3 “And those who have insight shall shine like the brightness of the expanse, and those who lead many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The kingdom is eternal:

Revelation 21:1-4, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Psalm 37:29, “The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell in it forever.”

Revelation 21:9-27, " 9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Daniel 2:44-45, " 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

Daniel 7:27-28, " 27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’ 28 “Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.”

 

[MattforJesus]

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

[Gromewack]

Eye eat gravel

 

[Macabeus]

Some church organizations claim that repentance is not part of the gospel, and should not be mentioned.

I believe that their intention is to get as many people saved as they can, but in the process, are they filling the pews with goats who have not been born-again? Or, rather, are their pews ultimately empty because goats stay home, while still thinking they are believers?

So, I suppose the first question is, what is repentance?

Here's my definition, which I believe is biblical.

Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation. Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin. They describe the same motion. We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ. These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

Before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful. We embrace sin as a way of life. We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts. When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Repentance, like faith, is an intellectual understanding that that sin is wrong, an emotional approval of the teachings of scripture regarding sin (a sorrow for sin and hatred of it), and a personal decision to turn from it (a renouncing of sin and a decision of the will to forsake it and lead a life of obedience to Christ instead.

I borrowed parts of this definition from teachers that I enjoy.

Anyways, notice that I don't define repentance as meaning that someone needs to clean up their lives before coming to Christ, because I think that is impossible until one is united with Christ. It is, however, a fundamental turning away from one's life of sin in terms of orientation, and toward obedience to Christ.

I believe this is brought about by regeneration, and doesn't cause regeneration, unlike many here, who believe that regeneration doesn't occur until after salvation.

But, that isn't the basic question. My basic question is, how is repentance defined, and is faith and repentance part of the gospel message?

I know that some groups, particularly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and those associated with Free Grace Movement, and the non-Reformed majority of Southern Baptists, don't even think that this heartfelt repentance and turning away from one's sinful orientation is part of the saved person's experience necessarily. They believe that simple intellectual assent to the reality of Jesus' death for their behalf is all that's involved in receiving salvation.

Groups like this lower the bar so that as many people can be saved as possible. They don't even want to discuss sin and repentance. They focus the conversation on how much God loves the person, and the decision to place their faith in Him, with no mention of repentance.

Some believe that if they can talk the person into accepting Christ, then repentance will come later. There doesn't need to be any indication that the person is broken up about their sin condition.

Personally, I think this simply fills the pews with goats for a while, and the church ends up being a bunch of goats who think they have salvation when they do not. And, if God is drawing someone, they are going to be focused on their sin condition anyways. The Holy Spirit convicts one of sinfulness and brings them to the awareness of their need for Christ and deliverance from their sins.

And, if someone hasn't reached the point where they are serious about their sins as a professing believer, they may want to consider whether they are actually saved.

What do you think?

Jesus and all the apostles taught repentance, so yes.