Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Mr. Mac you are funny!!

If I exegete 1 John 3:6 ... I am really hoping you will tell me that it is "insane" as in beyond expectations like you did for @gb9

Go ahead and exegete it.

Start with the question “who is the one who abides in Him”. That’s the correct starting point.

And that’s not what I said about GB9’s post

 

[Macabeus]

No one who abides in Him sins (durative or continous progressive present tense) , no one who sins (durative present tense verb) has seen Him or known Him

1 John 3: 6.

This is not talking about sinless perfection. It is saying that people who abide in Christ do not practice sin as a way of life

Notice the topic is abiding, so don’t talk about works salvation. Again, please

And this is a descriptive phrase not a prescriptive one. In other words it is not saying what we need to do to abide in Christ, rather it is DESCRIBING a person who is abiding

Thouroughly Biblical

@UnderGrace

Don’t forget. DC Himself said a Christian cannot and will not live in a lifestyle of sin

Do you know what durative present tense means?

 

[Lightskin]

Wow that is not good , this thread moves fast sometimes I must have missed it.

Funny thing is I don’t have a congregation. I serve hospice patients. And they love what I bring to the table; reassurance of God’s love and grace. Hmmm, maybe I should parse some works salvationist verbiage and that will get them to like me even more so.

 

[Lightskin]

HAHAHAHAHA. Lightskin deleted his post.

I did? 🤷‍♂️

 

[BillG]

Funny thing is I don’t have a congregation. I serve hospice patients. And they love what I bring to the table; reassurance of God’s love and grace. Hmmm, maybe I should parse some works salvationist verbiage and that will get them to like me even more so.

God bless your ministry dear brother.

You can't parse works salvation with them as they won't have time to do them.
Just like the thief on the cross.
Saved by his faith and only that.

 

[Macabeus]

God bless your ministry dear brother.

You can't parse works salvation with them as they won't have time to do them.
Just like the thief on the cross.
Saved by his faith and only that.

Works salvation is a strawman. No one is teaching that.

If I am teaching a works salvation, so did John and Paul etc

Did you ever notice that Paul always taught Grace first and then application

None of you who have anything other but strawmen.

 

[Macabeus]

Can’t talk to people who only believe part of the apostles doctrine. See ya guys. 🤙

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Works salvation is a strawman. No one is teaching that.

If I am teaching a works salvation, so did John and Paul etc

Did you ever notice that Paul always taught Grace first and then application

None of you who have anything other but strawmen.

No one is teaching that. Amen!

I would like to direct the discussion again to what I perceive to be the heart of the issue here: What are works of the law? I say works of the law are laws like circumcision, tzitzit, tefillin, diverse washings and other torah commandments.
The other side seems to be suggesting works of the law includes the New Testament commandments spoken by the Apostles and the Lord Jesus. If that be the case, why did Paul even write any commandments, if they are just works of the law? We already had the Torah to lead us to Christ and show us our sins, Paul didnt need to repeat it.

I contend what Paul wrote was New Covenant commandments to be obeyed by the churches, and some of these commandments were clearly not optional.

No one is teaching salvation by feeding the poor, fasting, praying or anything of the sort. Only thing we are doing is reading the Bible, believing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21 and other verses (many many many many many of these, in fact there is a warning in almost every NT book, might even be every single one) for what they are. This is how people have understood the verses since the times of the Apostles, through the Ante-Nicene Church fathers, through Augustine, through even Luther, Luther did not contend for a dead faith with no evidence whatsoever. Luther was the one to popularize the phrase "Faith alone" yet if you take a look at his writings you see he required baptism for salvation, so his understanding of what "faith alone" means is quite different from the modern understanding. He viewed it as God's work. Not saying I agree with Luther or disagree, just explaining where the term originated from.

 

[Macabeus]

God bless your ministry dear brother.

You can't parse works salvation with them as they won't have time to do them.
Just like the thief on the cross.
Saved by his faith and only that.

Ummm... I think the thief was saved by the grace and mercy of God. Faith is not meritorious. It receives Christ’s merit

 

[Macabeus]

No one is teaching that. Amen!

I would like to direct the discussion again to what I perceive to be the heart of the issue here: What are works of the law? I say works of the law are laws like circumcision, tzitzit, tefillin, diverse washings and other torah commandments.
The other side seems to be suggesting works of the law includes the New Testament commandments spoken by the Apostles and the Lord Jesus. If that be the case, why did Paul even write any commandments, if they are just works of the law? We already had the Torah to lead us to Christ and show us our sins, Paul didnt need to repeat it.

I contend what Paul wrote was New Covenant commandments to be obeyed by the churches, and some of these commandments were clearly not optional.

No one is teaching salvation by feeding the poor, fasting, praying or anything of the sort. Only thing we are doing is reading the Bible, believing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21 and other verses (many many many many many of these, in fact there is a warning in almost every NT book, might even be every single one) for what they are. This is how people have understood the verses since the times of the Apostles, through the Ante-Nicene Church fathers, through Augustine, through even Luther, Luther did not contend for a dead faith with no evidence whatsoever. Luther was the one to popularize the phrase "Faith alone" yet if you take a look at his writings you see he required baptism for salvation, so his understanding of what "faith alone" means is quite different from the modern understanding. He viewed it as God's work. Not saying I agree with Luther or disagree, just explaining where the term originated from.

Luther’s argument was JUSTIFICATION by faith alone. I disagree with Luther on a lot of things, but he got that right.

Justified by faith alone. But justification alone is not salvation. It is one part of many aspects of salvation

God is doing things BEFORE and AFTER we believe

Spurgeon had it right. All of GRACE

People here conflate justification with salvation. They are not synonomous any more than wheel and spoke of wheel are synonomous. 🙂

Works do not save but follow as a result of our new nature.

 

[BillG]

So Bill I answered your question...when are you going to answer mine

Why did Paul speak of self control to Felix if all Felix needed to repent of was unbelief?

How do you define the word sin in 1John 1:8?

What is the purpose of the Law in Romans 3:20?

What is Gods wrath revealed from heaven against in Romans 1:17 and forward?

Thanks in advance.

For the cronies who will say “ why you focusing on sin?” (Eternally grateful), Bill asked me what the Holy Spirit convicts of.

I still can't see the answer to my question that I asked you concerning the passage from John concerning the Holy Spirit coming the convict the world of its sin and that sin being unbelief in him.

If I have missed it then please give me a link to the response.

Let me put this on the table.

We repent of the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

Jesus himself said that is why he had to go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would come to convict us off that sin.

As a result of that I believe that when we repent of that we become conscious of our past sins and the state of sinfulness, but I also believe if we discipleship correctly then we will have Godly sorrow.

We confess those sins that we remember (that's what I did).

So with regards to 1 John 1:8 my understanding is that sin is to miss the mark, fall short etc.

That's why in V9 we find

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word confess is not to repent.
I understand this to mean "I agree Father I got this wrong, I messed up"

Now I myself have circular reasoning with this.
I bring it back to the verses in John.

So when we repent of the sin of unbelief we also repent of the sins we have committed.

And as result God is just and has already forgiven us of those sins on the cross.
As a result we are united with God through faith.
After that we confess our sins, not to be forgiven but to maintain fellowship with God, mainly from our side.

 

[BillG]

Ummm... I think the thief was saved by the grace and mercy of God. Faith is not meritorious. It receives Christ’s merit

Rubbish

Luke 23:42-43
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

He called Jesus Lord

 

[Macabeus]

I still can't see the answer to my question that I asked you concerning the passage from John concerning the Holy Spirit coming the convict the world of its sin and that sin being unbelief in him.

If I have missed it then please give me a link to the response.

Let me put this on the table.

We repent of the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

Jesus himself said that is why he had to go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would come to convict us off that sin.

As a result of that I believe that when we repent of that we become conscious of our past sins and the state of sinfulness, but I also believe if we discipleship correctly then we will have Godly sorrow.

We confess those sins that we remember (that's what I did).

So with regards to 1 John 1:8 my understanding is that sin is to miss the mark, fall short etc.

That's why in V9 we find

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word confess is not to repent.
I understand this to mean "I agree Father I got this wrong, I messed up"

Now I myself have circular reasoning with this.
I bring it back to the verses in John.

So when we repent of the sin of unbelief we also repent of the sins we have committed.

And as result God is just and has already forgiven us of those sins on the cross.
As a result we are united with God through faith.
After that we confess our sins, not to be forgiven but to maintain fellowship with God, mainly from our side.

My answer is that your definition of the word sin in your proof text is incorrect.

If we only repent of unbelief, then all other sins are already forgiven before we believe. It is the position that only unbelief sends one to hell. That is true in practice but does not cancel out the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience not only for their sin, but also their sins.

That’s where your argument fails

 

[BillG]

Works salvation is a strawman. No one is teaching that.

If I am teaching a works salvation, so did John and Paul etc

Did you ever notice that Paul always taught Grace first and then application

None of you who have anything other but strawmen.

Wow wow wow.

Where did I say you are teaching works salvation.

I was talking generally about those who do.

Back off or talk to me rather than redx me.

 

[Macabeus]

Rubbish

Luke 23:42-43
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

He called Jesus Lord

Yes. It was faith. But faith did not save Him in the sense of meriting salvation. We are saved by the merit of Christ, not by anything we do.

Do you believe in imputes righteousness

Will be away for a while. Will check back later

 

[Macabeus]

Wow wow wow.

Where did I say you are teaching works salvation.

I was talking generally about those who do.

Back off or talk to me rather than redx me.

You said “you cannot parse works salvation”. If I misunderstood your post, I’m sorry. Gotta go. Be back later

 

[BillG]

My answer is that your definition of the word sin in your proof text is incorrect.

If we only repent of unbelief, then all other sins are already forgiven before we believe. It is the position that only unbelief sends one to hell. That is true in practice but does not cancel out the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience not only for their sin, but also their sins.

That’s where your argument fails

My prove text is proof.

Time to say goodbye.
I have only ever to tried to talk and walk with you.

Oh well, sure I will see you in heaven one day.

I'm not even sure you have had the courtesy to read what I wrote.

It is the position that only unbelief sends one to hell.

That says it all.

 

[BillG]

You said “you cannot parse works salvation”. If I misunderstood your post, I’m sorry. Gotta go. Be back later

What is the to understand?

 

[BillG]

Yes. It was faith. But faith did not save Him in the sense of meriting salvation. We are saved by the merit of Christ, not by anything we do.

Do you believe in imputes righteousness

Will be away for a while. Will check back later

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Macabeus]

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Yep. There’s what saves us. 🙂