Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
- Thread starter LW97
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
i can comment on rev 2:5 and 1 tim 4:1 quickly.Hi Melach sorry something happened to my messages. They joined somehow. I couldn't edit it.
Well the scripture I would use is-
Revelation 2:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Consider how far you have "fallen"! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Notice the word word "fallen" is also in this scripture.
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will ......depart....... from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
*Its possible to depart from the faith as shown above.
And yes "some" were not saved to begin with. But "some" were of the faith.
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
*Just because 1 john 2:19 exists we cant pretend 1 Timothy 4:1 Doesnt exist. Then it makes a one sided gospel. And only part truth... according to the bible.
Thanks
for revelation 2:5 notice nothing is said of losing salvation but removing lampstand from its place, maybe this church will be out, maybe their testimony will be shipwreck
for 1 tim4:1 you can say that they depart from the right faith, the doctrines and practices of 'the faith' once delivered to the saints. thats how the word 'the 'faith is sometimes used like in jude 1:3
john gill has to say about 'the faith' in jude 1:3 "by the "faith" is meant the doctrine of faith, in which sense it is used whenever faith is said to be preached, obeyed, departed, or erred from, or denied, or made shipwreck of, or when exhortations are made to stand fast, and continue in it, or to strive and contend for it, as here;"
all scripture must harmonize so im not interpreting 1 timothy 4:1 that way just to scratch my itch ears. its because we are born again of incorruptible seed and Jesus will not lose even one and all those verses. they must also be true. so harmonization is needed
be
I just view the bible as it is. What's written is how I view it. It's simple to me. But what your writing is more intellectual in understanding. Not just read the bible for what it says, but making special interpretations for it?.
you read it as it is in 1 timothy 4:1 but do you read it as is in john 5:24? or do you add other scripture into the mix to form opinion? you do same as me.
if you believed john 5:24 as it says you would say its impossible to come into judgmetn once you have believed in Jesus. but you dont believe that.
so your claim of saying just whats written is true for me too.
I believe in faith that produces good works. Not just believing alone.
ADD John 5:24 to this scripture
Hebrews 5:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who "obey" him
I believe John 5:24. But believing also needs OBEYING. Faith without works is dead. So I dont just believe in "believing alone (demon faith)". The bible says we need to believe and Obey for salvation and live according to Gods will and commands if we love him. So I wont just emphasize works but both need to be together. To make it complete like Abraham's faith.
you just proof what i said here. you dont just look at john 5:24 you look else where. so much for simple and just read it and believe it? only when it fits what you belief. you added hebrews 5:9.
but when i added jude 1:3 to 1 tim 4:1 you were against it spoke about oh i just read bible its so simple to me as its written. no its same for all. all scripture must harmonize or be rightly divided
Sorry I was very tired I wasnt against you. Sorry I tried to delete that message.
Jude New International Version (NIV)
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
Yes this is a good scripture. Sorry I wasnt sure what you meant when you put John Gill I'm front of what you said.
I am not sure why you added jude 1:3 with Timothy 4:1 please explain it again. I wasnt trying to suit my beliefs but other scriptures in the "bible about "salvation". Where did jude 1:3 talk about salvation here or do you mean the entire book of Jude? Sorry for offending you, by not properly reading your message because I am tired. Goodnight I have to go to bed now. It's very late in my country.
The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Do you mean this passage. Please explain what you mean when you mentioned this passage.
I mentioned Hebrews 5:9 not because it's my belief but because it's in the bible about the topic "salvation". To believe and obey.
And melach you obviously believe in once saved always saved is this correct. If so your view of the bible is not the same as mine. So if you would like to properly research the issues of eternal security vs conditional security there is information on evangelical outreach.org I am still learning alot about the bible. There is more doctrinal information on conditional security if you want to learn more about this doctrine, Thanks, because I dont get on this site much anymore goodbye
.We are saved by faith through his grace. But faith produces good works. So if we dont have good works we dont have faith. Good works are obediance to Gods commands. In James one of these good works is too love our brothers and sisters by helping them if they are in need. If we love him we will keep his commandments... If we deny him he will deny us. Yes when we accept Jesus as our personal saviour we are sealed with the holy spirit, but we are told not to grieve the holy spirit and were are told we need to abide in Gods love. We are told to turn from wickedness if we confess the name of the Lord. Whether or not the word "salvation is mentioned". We are supposed to put Gods word into practice as we are told throughout the bible. So whether or not this is considered a "salvation issue" we are still commanded to put Gods word into practice anyway. And we dont automatically become sinless when we receive the holy spirit, where we cant ever sin again.. If we say we have no sin we are liars and the truth is not in us. But the holy spirit helps us in our weaknesses. We are told make every "effort" to enter the kingdom of God. So there is some effort obviously involved and too purify "ourselves" This doesn't mean we rely on our selves fully for salvation, but in any relationship you put in "effort" dont you. In your marriage you put in effort to talk with your partner and listen to them. OSAS believers vs NO-OSAS both have a different idea of faith. One kind of faith has no works and one does.
We will be continually changed and God will help us to work and will for his good pleasure. We are helped by God to Obey him. God helps us Obey him, because we have his spirit, word and we can also pray to him. So this isnt self effort but rather a relationship with God. So I know I need God to help me become what he wants me to be. I cant do it alone by my own self effort. Just because I dont believe in saying one sinners repentance prayer that will automatically save me for all eternity even if I continue in sin. It doesn't mean I follow works alone. This is because saying a prayer and then not living as Christ lived would just be a waste of time. If we didnt care about the bible and just said one prayer in our life "what would be the point". Anyway I know that I cant go to heaven by my own good works, because I cant be good enough for that. So I need God to help me and that is relying on God and not myself. So this is "reliance on God" and not self effort. Jesus blood does cleanse us from our sins and we are made righteous through the sacrifice of Jesus... But whoever does what is right Is also righteous. So our behavior is also important. Yes we are not perfect.. But when you read scriptures in the bible you will see that there are scriptures that say "those who do such things" will not inherit the kingdom of God. These are sins that lead to death. They are acts of the flesh and if we continue sowing to the flesh we wont see life. No where have I found that we can sow to the flesh and receive eternal life and God will forgive our future sins. If this was In the bible I would believe it..
So in conclusion just because I dont believe a person can say one prayer and be sealed for all eternity- no matter what they do. It doesnt mean I believe that I believe I am saved by works. It meana that I dont believe in just believing a God existed 6000 years ago in a history book. I don't believe I just look in the bible and say I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that's it... I can look in other history books and say I believe the history in them. I also dont believe that if I go in a church building every Sunday it makes me a Christian.. Some people believe what makes them a Christian is church or tithing every Sunday. But I have seen that there is more to being a Christian and that requires a total lifestyle change. Not just going in a building every Sunday and singing the same songs, playing basket ball in youth groups, having coffee with church members etc.
We will be continually changed and God will help us to work and will for his good pleasure. We are helped by God to Obey him. God helps us Obey him, because we have his spirit, word and we can also pray to him. So this isnt self effort but rather a relationship with God. So I know I need God to help me become what he wants me to be. I cant do it alone by my own self effort. Just because I dont believe in saying one sinners repentance prayer that will automatically save me for all eternity even if I continue in sin. It doesn't mean I follow works alone. This is because saying a prayer and then not living as Christ lived would just be a waste of time. If we didnt care about the bible and just said one prayer in our life "what would be the point". Anyway I know that I cant go to heaven by my own good works, because I cant be good enough for that. So I need God to help me and that is relying on God and not myself. So this is "reliance on God" and not self effort. Jesus blood does cleanse us from our sins and we are made righteous through the sacrifice of Jesus... But whoever does what is right Is also righteous. So our behavior is also important. Yes we are not perfect.. But when you read scriptures in the bible you will see that there are scriptures that say "those who do such things" will not inherit the kingdom of God. These are sins that lead to death. They are acts of the flesh and if we continue sowing to the flesh we wont see life. No where have I found that we can sow to the flesh and receive eternal life and God will forgive our future sins. If this was In the bible I would believe it..
So in conclusion just because I dont believe a person can say one prayer and be sealed for all eternity- no matter what they do. It doesnt mean I believe that I believe I am saved by works. It meana that I dont believe in just believing a God existed 6000 years ago in a history book. I don't believe I just look in the bible and say I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that's it... I can look in other history books and say I believe the history in them. I also dont believe that if I go in a church building every Sunday it makes me a Christian.. Some people believe what makes them a Christian is church or tithing every Sunday. But I have seen that there is more to being a Christian and that requires a total lifestyle change. Not just going in a building every Sunday and singing the same songs, playing basket ball in youth groups, having coffee with church members etc.
If you believe faith must produce good works otherwise it is not faith, that is equivalent to saying you believe salvation is by faith and works.
James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."
James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."
James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"
James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."
James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."
James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."
James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"
James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."
James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."
John 5:28-30, " 28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. 30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.
John 15:1-27, " 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another. 18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’ 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
John 15:1-27, " 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another. 18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’ 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
Also I can name many of my church experiences. I would go to a Baptist church every Sunday and the sermons just didnt make sense, my pastor said he wanted to watch Jersey shore because he just wants to understand 'why people live like this" kind of strange really. No one in the church youth group really wanted to talk about God in free conversation, but rather political issues and other things. I used to ask one of my previous friends, why dont these people ever talk about God? She answered well they probably dont like expressing their feelings. I had a friend who loved night clubbing all the time and when he told people in the church they never said anything about it. My church youth group parties were all about fun and having worldly music blasting through the stereo. About drinking and partying. Women including myself went the beach dress immodestly most of us were, it was a get together from multiple churches. Men were tempted to look at other women in the church who were "Christian" wearing high heels an mini skirts. Church members were discriminating against people like myself who were in low income housing, saying remove them away, they are all drug dealers. At the church group I was in, when they said this it hurt my feelings. I went to many other churches over the years and saw high levels of greed in people, really expensive cars etc. One of my family members in OSAS loves money, partying and puts other down who have less money or status and calls them commoners. I was living with a women in a hostel who told me her mother wants her to get an abortion, her mother is part of a OSAS church. And the girl I lived with is not a Christian and told me how these people in that church look like they love money. I go to another church and they change lyrics of sinful artists and add jesus name in them. It was like I was in a bar.. I go to Another church and adriana grande is playing on a big screen, adele and other ungodly singers. This apparently was the start of the church service. I went to a Christian get together with another Christian group where the main conversation was about holidays and tattoos. I didn't belong because I wasnt wealthy enough to afford such expensive holidays to Europe the whole time was about holidays and worldly music played through speakers. Other members of the group were wearing provocative clothing like short skirts and even myself. God was lacking. I also went to another group where people debated subjects like abortion or suicide. We would sit their and make up an opinion about what we thought for a short time. Then everyone would talk about sports or other activities.. One day I went to a church where I was told I need someone to view me getting saved, I told them where does it say that In the bible. The church service was about the pastors previous life as a kungfu fighter. Most these pastors on stage talk about themselves alot. None of the times I went in churches did I feel spiritually influenced.
What’s with all these circular arguments people like to make?
If you believe salvation is by faith only, then leave works out of the equation.
Otherwise be confident enough to state otherwise
Guojing it doesnt say anywhere in the bible we are justified by the term "faith alone". So I cant believe it. And your assumptions are not actually what I believe. They are "your" view