Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Hevosmies]

Yet, when the ascended Christ gave the "Great Commission" in Matt 28 to the 11, he stated

20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

And the Jewish believers in Acts were

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12

20 Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20

Conclusion: Your point about everyone preaching that the Law was nailed at the crucifixion was a tad premature. No one preached that in Acts. Even by the time Acts 15 arrived, it was only agreed that the Gentiles who believe do not have to keep the Law.

Only after Paul was raised, then the ascended Christ revealed to him that the Law was nailed to the cross, for everyone.

One thing we DO KNOW from Church history that the Jewish Christians KEPT ON keeping the law, as they do TILL THIS DAY, messianic Jews!

Its just part of them, and there is NOTHING WRONG with keeping the law, God's commandments are Holy and GOOD. Its only a problem if you preach to others that you HAVE TO KEEP THEM to be saved, or think you are maintaining your salvation by doing so. OTHER THAN THAT, ITS ALL GOOD IN THE HOOD!

BTW: anyone else getting a weird error when trying to start a thread?
"Oops! We ran into some problems. Please try again later. More error details may be in the browser console. " what to do?

 

[Grandpa]

I agree with you 100%, but my question is not whether or not we should keep the Torah. Actually, my question is this: Who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses?

It is true that during His earthly ministry Jesus never told the disciples to stop keeping the Law, and many law keepers today build their argument on this fact.

The earthly Jesus never told us to stop keeping the law of Moses, but the risen Christ did (through Paul). If we were to read only the four Gospels we would be Torah observant to this day. So, the purpose of this thread is to stimulate reflection on the importance of Paul's letters. It is in his letters that we'll find the answer to my question: Who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses?

Paul did not have authority from himself to just decide to tell people that the Mosaic Law was over.

That authority came from Christ. Paul just explained to us what Christ told us in parables and what Christ revealed to him.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is Christ telling us He will give us rest from our work at Moses Law.

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


This is Paul explaining what Christ said and what He did in Paul from Matthew 11.


You are correct though, that if this wasn't explained by Paul, Christianity would have been mixed with Judaism. Probably.

 

[Marcelo]

You can’t keep the law of moses. So stop trying or thinking you do

And start to seeve and love others, place their needs above your own, trust god to take care of all your needs, and you will start to resemble christ.

Where did you find evidence that I am trying to keep the law of Moses, that I don't serve and don't love others, that I place my needs above the needs of others and that I don't trust God?

 

[Marcelo]

Peter tried to do that in Acts 15 for both Jews and Gentiles, after his experience with Cornelius, but James would have none of it.

When you literally read how Acts 15 went down, as recorded by Luke. Peter actually stated this:

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

A literal reading will tell you that Peter is actually saying that he wants the Jews (we), from then on, to be saved, as a Gentile (they).

This is very significant because under the Law of Moses, Gentiles could be saved, but only as a Jew. Exodus 12:48 sums that up well.

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

So when Peter announced that, it was of huge significance to all the Jews who heard him during the Council.

But alas, James intervened before it could take root, and he did his final announcement that

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

James, in my reading, deftly changed Peter's proclamation about how Jews and Gentiles are now to turn to God, into just the Gentiles.
And Acts 21 confirmed it, especially in v20

...Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law

In my reading, James kept the Jewish believers bounded to the Law of Moses.

So much for the widely taught doctrine that Peter was the head of the church, and James merely supported Peter's decision. Scripture indicated otherwise.

It is amazing how a literal reading of Acts 15, without the baggage of church doctrine, reveals.

You're right! Paul was not the only one who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses. What I actually mean is that it was mainly Paul who told us that.

 

[Marcelo]

Paul did not have authority from himself to just decide to tell people that the Mosaic Law was over.

That authority came from Christ. Paul just explained to us what Christ told us in parables and what Christ revealed to him.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is Christ telling us He will give us rest from our work at Moses Law.

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


This is Paul explaining what Christ said and what He did in Paul from Matthew 11.


You are correct though, that if this wasn't explained by Paul, Christianity would have been mixed with Judaism. Probably.

You're right! Paul did not have authority from himself, he just relayed Christ's message

Marcelo said: The earthly Jesus never told us to stop keeping the law of Moses, but the risen Christ did (through Paul).

 

[Dan_473]

You're right! Paul did not have authority from himself, he just relayed Christ's message

I agree.

Strange thing that I've seen happen, though. People will sometimes, for some reason, view the words of Christ when he walked the Earth as somehow of a higher order than the words that he communicated through his apostles after his resurrection.

The further strange thing to me is that the four gospels that we use to find quotes from Jesus were all written down by, or approved by, an apostle, most people agree.

So if the apostles were getting things wrong, or somehow not in touch with God, then the gospels are not reliable sources of quotes, either.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You subscribed to covenant theology and yes, that is their general viewpoint about scripture.

Actually, covenant theology would not be likely to use a phrase like "law dispensation".

That could be a phrase that dispensationalists would use, though. Classical dispensationalism divides time into seven epochs of redemptive history called dispensations.

I don't think there's very many classical dispensationalists now, but they tend to hold variations of beliefs that are similar to it.

Covenant theologians believe that the Mosaic Covenant is basically the "covenant of grace" under a different administration. The new administration of the "covenant of grace" is the New Covenant.

That is why they believe it is appropriate for a child to be baptized based on the parents' faith.

I don't believe in either. My position is 1689 Federalism. They view the Mosaic Covenant as typological of the New Covenant. They don't believe eternal life was ever offered under it, but only long life in the Promised Land.

1689 Federalism is a Reformed Baptist teaching. Covenant theology is mostly held by Presbyterians, although some Reformed Baptists hold a modified version of it.

Perhaps I'm confusing who is talking to who, though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

How did we come to be not under law?

Believers are under Christ's law.

They are not under the Mosaic Law.

Of course, some commandments in the Mosaic Law reflect the moral character of God, and these laws convict the sinner of his sinfulness, and show the believer what the image of God (Christ) looks like, therefore in a sense, they are still "valid", although the believer is not under law for right standing before God; he is under grace.

Here are verses that say the Mosaic Covenant/Law is no longer in effect:

Rom 7:1-6
Acts 15
Eph 2:13-15
Gal 3,4
Heb 7, 8
2 Cor 3

Particularly, in Galatians 3, 4, the Mosaic Law is presented as a schoolmaster to bring a person to Christ. It was meant for immature babies who are still sucking on the bottle and wearing diapers. Once Christ (the reality) came, the Mosaic Law was obsolete, according to Galatians 3.

By the way, I told a Judaizer that the Law was for bottle-sucking, diaper-wearing babies, following very abusive comments towards me (he didn't like it that I was no longer a Sabbathkeeper). He told me to never talk to him again, and he didn't talk to me for a year or more after that. He finally started talking to me just before he died from cancer. That was a pleasant few years

 

[RickStudies]

I agree.

Strange thing that I've seen happen, though. People will sometimes, for some reason, view the words of Christ when he walked the Earth as somehow of a higher order than the words that he communicated through his apostles after his resurrection.

The further strange thing to me is that the four gospels that we use to find quotes from Jesus were all written down by, or approved by, an apostle, most people agree.

So if the apostles were getting things wrong, or somehow not in touch with God, then the gospels are not reliable sources of quotes, either.

No one has said the Apostles got it wrong. They preached what they knew. But Paul was an incredible scholar, a chosen vessel who was given revelation and knowledge the 12 did not have.


Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 

[lilian2800]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[lilian2800]

why the Bible backs up the Quran? Isaiah 29:12 Quran 7:157-158. Mark 12:29, Deuteronomy 6:4,.Quran 61:6.Jesus said dont worship me revelation 22:9,Jesus servant of God Isaiah42:1-9, I do not accept glory hadith
The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “O people, you must be mindful of Allah and do not allow Satan to deceive you. I am Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the servant of Allah and his messenger. By Allah, I do not love for you to raise my position above what Allah Almighty has granted me.”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 12141
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani .Galatians 6:5 backs up Quran 35:18.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where did you find evidence that I am trying to keep the law of Moses, that I don't serve and don't love others, that I place my needs above the needs of others and that I don't trust God?

You said we need to follow the law of moses did you not?

 

[SimpleGardner]

I agree.

Strange thing that I've seen happen, though. People will sometimes, for some reason, view the words of Christ when he walked the Earth as somehow of a higher order than the words that he communicated through his apostles after his resurrection.

The further strange thing to me is that the four gospels that we use to find quotes from Jesus were all written down by, or approved by, an apostle, most people agree.

So if the apostles were getting things wrong, or somehow not in touch with God, then the gospels are not reliable sources of quotes, either.

Greetings Dan,

Only Matthew and John were apostles who wrote gospels. Mark and Luke were not.

 

[Lightskin]

why the Bible backs up the Quran? Isaiah 29:12 Quran 7:157-158. Mark 12:29, Deuteronomy 6:4,.Quran 61:6.Jesus said dont worship me revelation 22:9,Jesus servant of God Isaiah42:1-9, I do not accept glory hadith
The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “O people, you must be mindful of Allah and do not allow Satan to deceive you. I am Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the servant of Allah and his messenger. By Allah, I do not love for you to raise my position above what Allah Almighty has granted me.”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 12141
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani .Galatians 6:5 backs up Quran 35:18.

Jesus Christ is the son of God, the Messiah, the Lord of all and Savior of those who put their faith in Him.

 

[Grandpa]

No one has said the Apostles got it wrong. They preached what they knew. But Paul was an incredible scholar, a chosen vessel who was given revelation and knowledge the 12 did not have.


Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

We know that Paul was a very talented Pharisee, very knowledgeable.

We know that Christ made him a very talented Christian, very knowledgeable with lots of Revelation from Christ.


So I wonder, how could anyone have argued with Paul? I don't think an ancient Jewish fisherman is going to argue Jewish Law with Paul, and if they did I don't think they would get very far.

And then conversely I don't think that there could be a Christian that could point out Jewish things that Christ has fulfilled and the manner He fulfilled them that would catch Paul off-guard.


This is just my conjecture and I don't think scripture really backs it up or refutes it. But something to think about, maybe.

I think I am agreeing with you here.

 

[Grandpa]

Greetings Dan,

Only Matthew and John were apostles who wrote gospels. Mark and Luke were not.

Mmmm. Those are my two favorite. Matthew and John. Don't care for Mark and Luke as much.

I knew Luke wasn't an apostle. But I didn't know Mark wasn't. What was Mark?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Mmmm. Those are my two favorite. Matthew and John. Don't care for Mark and Luke as much.

I knew Luke wasn't an apostle. But I didn't know Mark wasn't. What was Mark?

Good question! And there are references to him in the NT.. Would you find them for me? Kinda busy, in and out of the field.
SG

 

[RickStudies]

We know that Paul was a very talented Pharisee, very knowledgeable.

We know that Christ made him a very talented Christian, very knowledgeable with lots of Revelation from Christ.


So I wonder, how could anyone have argued with Paul? I don't think an ancient Jewish fisherman is going to argue Jewish Law with Paul, and if they did I don't think they would get very far.

And then conversely I don't think that there could be a Christian that could point out Jewish things that Christ has fulfilled and the manner He fulfilled them that would catch Paul off-guard.


This is just my conjecture and I don't think scripture really backs it up or refutes it. But something to think about, maybe.

I think I am agreeing with you here.

Scripture does back it up because Paul comes dangerously close to boasting about it several times in the epistles.

 

[posthuman]

why the Bible backs up the Quran?

Seeing that the Quran is much younger than the Bible I think you have that backwards.

 

[Grandpa]

Good question! And there are references to him in the NT.. Would you find them for me? Kinda busy, in and out of the field.
SG

https://thecenacle.weebly.com/mark--luke-were-not-apostles.html

Mark
Mark was the son of a woman named Mary (Acts 12:12) and the cousin of the evangelist Barnabas (Colossians 4:10). Mark was much younger than the other writers. His mother was a prominent follower of Jesus Christ. Acts 12:12 tells us that her house in Jerusalem was used as a meeting place for other disciples. From this verse we also learn that her son’s full name is John Mark. Mark was also a follower of Jesus Christ but would likely have been in his teens when the Lord was in Jerusalem. He may have seen and listened to the Savior on occasion. After the Resurrection, as the Savior’s message was beginning to be spread, Mark traveled with the Apostle Paul. He then accompanied the Apostle Peter to Rome and stayed by him while he was in prison. Mark is known as Peter’s interpreter, both in speech and in writing. As a fisherman from Galilee, Peter may not have spoken Greek fluently, so Mark interpreted for him.

In his book, Mark wrote down the observations and memories of Peter, one of the original Apostles. Mark’s book reflects Peter’s interest in spreading the gospel among the Gentiles.