Galatian Conundrums

[lightbearer]

Between the expulsion from the garden to the law of Moses, God did not place a law on anything else.

?

They did not need to be told, or have it written down. No external written prescription.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:....

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:18-20 KJV)


Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
(Rom 2:15 KJV)

 

[Guojing]

They did not need to be told, or have it written down. No external written prescription.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:....

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:18-20 KJV)


Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
(Rom 2:15 KJV)

There were sins of course. My question was "Was their sins imputed to them, before the Law was given?"

 

[lightbearer]

There were sins of course. My question was "Was their sins imputed to them, before the Law was given?"

You said, "Between the expulsion from the garden to the law of Moses, God did not place a law on anything else. "

But God did place a law somewhere.

Because Abraham obeyed His voice, and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. (Gen 26:5)

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:....

....That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:18-20 KJV)


Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
(Rom 2:15 KJV)

 

[Guojing]

You said, "Between the expulsion from the garden to the law of Moses, God did not place a law on anything else. "

But God did place a law somewhere.

Because Abraham obeyed His voice, and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. (Gen 26:5)

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:....

....That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:18-20 KJV)


Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
(Rom 2:15 KJV)

I think the term law you are referring to in Gen 26:5 is not the same term used by Paul in Romans 5:12-19. His v13 and 14 will make no sense if they both have the same meaning.

 

[Absolutely]

I just got done saying that in many cases what can be said of one, can be said of the other (i.e. interchangeable).

But in other places, what is said of one CANNOT be said of the other (because they are not exactly EQUIVALENT).


____________

John 21 -

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him [/Peter], If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


Even Peter got something wrong (about what Jesus had ACTUALLY said) following Jesus' resurrection... and church history is not exactly "scripture"

Humanly speaking ,"getting it wrong" is part of our walk.
If we were always right,God would need to move over and share his throne.
Paul was wrong,peter was wrong,david was wrong,abraham was wrong,moses was wrong.
Jesus never was.

 

[Absolutely]

Keep in mind that Matthew 24:14[/26:13] is what will be being preached IN/DURING the [future] tribulation period [7-yrs / 70th-Wk]...

Matthew 24:14 -

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed [/preached] in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come."


[I believe "the least of these My brethren" (Matt25:40) are the believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib yrs [FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure]) and are who are the ones bringing this particular message during this particular time-frame (same as "the WISE [of Israel]" in Dan12:1-4,10; and the Matt22:8-14 passage [re: the INVITATION to the FEAST (i.e. earthly MK age)]; and the Rev19:9 verse [distinct from v.7]; and other related passages...)]

Paul already preached it.
Says so in acts.
Jesus told his disciples "i give you the keys to the kingdom"
Authority.
The kingdom is established NOW and is being built NOW.

You have to know the king is enthroned now. He is currently king,has a kingdom,and sits on a throne.

 

[Absolutely]

I read the Bible and interpret it literally. Peter accused the Jews a number of times of murdering Jesus.

Acts 3:14-15
Acts 5:28
Acts 10:39

You refuse to interpret it literally because you were taught that Peter and Paul preached exactly the same gospel.

the gospel is a person.
His name is Jesus.
Anything else you frame it into is heresy.
There is no other gospel.
Peter preached what was revealed to him by revelation.
Same with paul.
You are flat out wrong.
There is zero conflict between what Jesus preached,paul preached,and peter and james preached.
The 2 gospel mess is a lie big time

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus told his disciples "i [WILL] give you the keys to the kingdom"
Authority.

And right after He said this ^ , He...

"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."


[is that ^ your commission, too?]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Humanly speaking ,"getting it wrong" is part of our walk.
If we were always right,God would need to move over and share his throne.
Paul was wrong,peter was wrong,david was wrong,abraham was wrong,moses was wrong.

You missed my point about my bringing up Peter in John 21.

I'm not condemning Peter. I'm not simply making a point that we all fail (we do).

I was making a point to Hevo, that if you're going to convince me of something scripture teaches, convince me from scripture (rather than from "church history"... because surely if we looked hard enough we could find something [anything] someone "believed" to support a viewpoint we'd like to hold, but it's not enough to convince me, I'd like to know "from scripture")

Jesus never was.

Scripture is never wrong. The Word of God is never wrong. Jesus is never wrong.

All true.

And at some point during Jesus' earthly ministry, it ceased being said that "the kingdom of the heavens is at hand"

(if memory serves [and I have a flawed memory ATM , to be clear, lol], I think it was somewhere around Matthew 16 and His "rejection" [by certains]; just before this, in Matt15:24 He's still saying, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"; and later in 16:21 it says, "From that point forth Jesus began to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day")

It will again be said during the future tribulation years, as I understand it... (and "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth during that time-frame either).

 

[Guojing]

the gospel is a person.
His name is Jesus.
Anything else you frame it into is heresy.
There is no other gospel.
Peter preached what was revealed to him by revelation.
Same with paul.
You are flat out wrong.
There is zero conflict between what Jesus preached,paul preached,and peter and james preached.
The 2 gospel mess is a lie big time

The point was that Peter accused his audience they murdered and killed Jesus. He did not say, "Jesus died for your sins, and rose again as a sign that your sins are fully put away."

No matter how many times you deny, the scripture stated what was said clearly.

 

[Guojing]

(if memory serves [and I have a flawed memory ATM , to be clear, lol], I think it was somewhere around Matthew 16 and His "rejection" [by certains]; just before this, in Matt15:24 He's still saying, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"; and later in 16:21 it says, "From that point forth Jesus began to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day")

It will again be said during the future tribulation years, as I understand it... (and "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth during that time-frame either).

Good point about the mid point of Matthew, I didn't realized it until I read from you.

 

[Shekinahglory]

Between the expulsion from the garden to the law of Moses, God did not place a law on anything else.

sin is not imputed when there is no law romans 5:13

So how can anyone die during that time due to their individual sins committed?

Sin is not just what we do it is what we are. The wage for sin is death. Say you somehow came up with a sin there was no law for it is still sin and the bill must be paid. Man was dying but he had no idea why. The broken law changed all that. sin not being charged God left those people unpunished during that time. There is a difference between not being charged

 

[Guojing]

Sin is not just what we do it is what we are. The wage for sin is death. Say you somehow came up with a sin there was no law for it is still sin and the bill must be paid. Man was dying but he had no idea why. The broken law changed all that. sin not being charged God left those people unpunished during that time. There is a difference between not being charged

Yes I agree with you, so Long as you recognise that we are sinners (noun) because of Adam’s disobedience.

It is not our sins that make us sinners. We sin because we are sinners

 

[Shekinahglory]

Good point about the mid point of Matthew, I didn't realized it until I read from you.

Hi guojing, hope you are well. In the just days are you speaking of anti-Christ? Anti-Christ appears to get a head wound that will seem to kill him. He is counterfeiting the Lord’s death and resurrection. Scripture says he will be left disfigured and I believe blind and other wounds. This being who is shown to us in Ez. 28 is profoundly vain. I believe this incident is that which causes him to snap and go on his murderous rampage. This is the Covenant with death that will be broken halfway through the Time of Jacob’s Trouble

 

[Guojing]

Hi guojing, hope you are well. In the just days are you speaking of anti-Christ? Anti-Christ appears to get a head wound that will seem to kill him. He is counterfeiting the Lord’s death and resurrection. Scripture says he will be left disfigured and I believe blind and other wounds. This being who is shown to us in Ez. 28 is profoundly vain. I believe this incident is that which causes him to snap and go on his murderous rampage. This is the Covenant with death that will be broken halfway through the Time of Jacob’s Trouble

Well I certainly think there will be an unholy Trinity that will appear during the Great Tribulation, which consists of the Anti-christ, the Beast and the false prophet.

But we are talking about the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom, that was offered to the Jews, and the Gospel of the Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ thru Paul, which was for everyone.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Galatian 2

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


Who knows what is going on in this passage?

Wait...

Why does Paul say "James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars" Umm, they are pillars of the faith, they don't "seem" to be...

Revelation 21: 14 "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

James, Cephas, and Johns names are on the foundation of the kindom, they are pillars...

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

 

[Shekinahglory]

The point was that Peter accused his audience they murdered and killed Jesus. He did not say, "Jesus died for your sins, and rose again as a sign that your sins are fully put away."

No matter how many times you deny, the scripture stated what was said clearly.

The Jewish people have enough fault in the death of Christ. It is not something popular in Christian circles. In some ways Israel has become an idol to parts of the Church and that colors the way she is seen in the End Times. The promise that all Israel will be saved is distorted because they don’t see the promise of all Israel being destroyed. How can both be true? The key is that not all Israel is Israel. What the heck does that mean? A Jew is not a Jew if He is one only in the flesh. The Lord told Israel they needed to be circumcised in the heart a picture of spiritual rebirth without it the Lord God said Israel was headed for the same judgment as the Gentile nations.

 

[Guojing]

The Jewish people have enough fault in the death of Christ. It is not something popular in Christian circles. In some ways Israel has become an idol to parts of the Church and that colors the way she is seen in the End Times. The promise that all Israel will be saved is distorted because they don’t see the promise of all Israel being destroyed. How can both be true? The key is that not all Israel is Israel. What the heck does that mean? A Jew is not a Jew if He is one only in the flesh. The Lord told Israel they needed to be circumcised in the heart a picture of spiritual rebirth without it the Lord God said Israel was headed for the same judgment as the Gentile nations.

Yes, so it made perfect sense for Peter to preach the resurrection of Christ to his Jewish listeners in Acts, but its not to preach in the same way as Paul, that it is the sign that all their sins are justified.

Rather, its to tell the Jews that, since there was a resurrection, Jesus can still be their King even when they murdered him. But the key to that happening is that they must all repent, and be water baptized (Acts 2:38)

But to Peter, even after Jesus resurrection, salvation for the Jews was still based on obeying the Law and getting circumcised.