Not By Works

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KJV1611 said:
Why not use proper terminology? People need to know that Jesus went hell.

Read the book of Jonah, chapter two I think. It gives great detail of what Jesus did in hell.

Read 2 Samuel also, it is foreshadowing Christ through David.

Also read the story of Joseph interpretating the dreams. The baker and butler represent the saved and the lost in hell.
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Jesus did not go to hell....the context is the grave/tomb...........and no matter how many times you peddle this drivel it will not make it so.....
 
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VCO said:
NO, because the word it correctly translated ASSEMBLY, it is implying the FIRST ASSEMBLY, because the CHURCH DID NOT EXIST until the THE DAY OF PENTECOST. THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH CHANGING THE WORD JESUS USED AND THAT IS ASSEMBLY. NO CONFUSION THAT WAY.
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I disagree with this.....the disciples are identified as THE CHURCH twice in the present context by JESUS well before the 50th day........and NOTE....with the definite article (THE) attached.........
 
blue_ladybug said:
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Morning BLUE cat LOVER...what a day....one friend just transferred to St Louis with a failing heart and my buddy that got shot in the head and killed last week was buried today on 25 acres close to my property....NO ONE knew how to run the back hoe SO I had to run it and put the dirt over him and this after a handle snapped on the coffin as they were lowering him into the hole and the coffin dropped sideways into the hole and almost dumped him out.............what a day........
 
OK......back to reality.........In the grace you are, having been saved by faith, and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of GOD and not of works lest any man should boast.......NOW NOTE.....

Grace is a position we are placed INTO because we have BEEN SAVED (PAST TENSE) BY FAITH

IT is NOT of ourselves <----directed at the FAITH that SAVES

IT is the GIFT of GOD and directly OPPOSED to WORKS so one may not boast......

NOW NOTE.....

HE that has BEGUN a GOOD WORK of FAITH IN YOU <-----HE will FINISH HIS WORK and BRING IT TO COMPLETION...........
 
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dcontroversal said:
OK......back to reality.........In the grace you are, having been saved by faith, and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of GOD and not of works lest any man should boast.......NOW NOTE.....

Grace is a position we are placed INTO because we have BEEN SAVED (PAST TENSE) BY FAITH

IT is NOT of ourselves <----directed at the FAITH that SAVES

IT is the GIFT of GOD and directly OPPOSED to WORKS so one may not boast......

NOW NOTE.....

HE that has BEGUN a GOOD WORK of FAITH IN YOU <-----HE will FINISH HIS WORK and BRING IT TO COMPLETION...........
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Back on topic guys.

Lets not leave God out of the picture!

Romans 8:28-30ff God justifies, God calls, God predestinates, God sanctifies, God does it all
 
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fredoheaven said:
I see, that in terms of the weightier matter of doctrine like Ecclesiology, you thus far don't believe in him and so I assumed you are no longer attending the "Grace Community CHURCH".

Well, you based your conclusion on the definition and the not actual translation.

Lidell and Stott Greek Lexicon gave us the use in the N.T. and Ecll. as the Church p.435, not a literal meaning either applied to Samian Assembly, Spartan Assembly, Homeric Assembly etc. and so with

A New Greek to English Dictionary Dr. Donnegan 1832 p 452

in ecclesiastical
writers, the church, in its general
and particular sense

Well, the two references are of only a few citations that the "church" is the appropriate translation of the Greek Ekklesia.

BTW, you cited YLT, however, Young is not to be said a literal translation since a literal translation is the translation of the words in their original order. Young did not in many instances in his translation.
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fredoheaven - let me END SOME CONFUSION ON YOUR PART. I live in LINCOLN, NEBRASKSA. I NEVER WAS A MEMBER OF GRACE Commununity Church, Dr MacArthur has had a RADIO PROGRAM every night Mon. thru Fri., SINCE THE Early 1970's, I was not SAVED until the last week of 1977, AFTER THREE ATTEMPTS AT SUICIDE. I did even know there was a Christian Radio station, until about Oct of 1978. I WAS HUNGRY AS A HORSE FOR GOOD BIBLE TEACHING. I GOT BORED WITH MY COUNTRY and WESTERN music one night at work, so I changed the station. I found GRACE TO YOU just starting the series on REVELATION, and Dr. John MacArthur, was as BLESSING FOR MY HUNGRY SPIRIT. Soon I was ordering additional tapes from GRACE TO YOU. I could not get enough of that style of Teaching. Before long I was listening to 4 hours of BIBLE TEACHING a night. At one time I had over 500 hours of Bible Teaching, most by Dr. John MacArthur, and a few by Dr. Chuck Swindoll. AND over the years I listened to the 4 times EACH. We have only attended Grace Community Church two times while we were on Vacation. Here I also attended a COMMUNITY CHURCH, very, very similar to Grace Community Church.

The Lord put it on my Heart to Move to Northern California in 1988. He kept opening Doors to Prison Ministry, and I kept walking through. I ended up being a Volunteer Prison Chaplain in a supermax Prison for 9.5 years. My wife got a big promotion in another town, so we moved. They also had a supermax Prison, so I was there as a Volunteer Chaplain for 5.5 more years. I finally retired from my P.O. job. in 2005, thirty eight years of playing P.O. was enough. And we decided to move to another town in northern California to be close to Grandchildren until they graduated from High School. By then it was getting TOO expensive to live in Cal., so we moved to a small town in northern NEVADA. A couple years after that my wife had lots of trouble with kidney failure. And she died unexpectedly. That small town did not feel like home no more, so I move back to Lincoln, NEBRASKA, and go to the same Church we left from in 1988.

So there is more ways to be discipled by a VERY GOOD BIBLE TEACHER, than to go to his Church. I still have the deepest RESPECT for Dr. John MacArthur. I am 70 years old now, and it feels like I am getting older by the minute, 1 Timothy 5:1. I have had 7 strokes to date, so sooner or later, I will have a really big one. It would be nice IF I could live to see the RAPTURE, but it has to be SOON. I have been around for far to LONG, to be swayed theologically by your opinions.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

(quote)
Greek NASB Number: 1577

Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

Transliterated Word: ekklêsia
Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--

New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.[/quote]
 
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dcontroversal said:
NO.......a great GULF separated the two.......it is completely dishonest with the text to say they are one and the same......
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Before we leave this topic would you be so kind as to explain what is the difference between shĕ'owl in the Psalms (Jesus went there) and shĕ'owl in Isaiah 5:14? I really don't want to say things that aren't true so I would appreciate you clearing this up for me.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (shĕ'owl ); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell (shĕ'owl) hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
 
Macabeus said:
Fifth paragraph second sentence. You asked me if I was looking down at Jews.

Answer... emphatically NO!
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The YOU was a reference to everyone who reads my Post, there are about 10 people who read posts and most do not ever post themselves.

So do you Macabeus, Consider O.T. SAINTS to be CO-EAQUALLY Saved, and part of the BRIDE of Christ?
I HOPE SO. For you would be a rare exception.
 
KJV1611 said:
Before we leave this topic would you be so kind as to explain what is the difference between shĕ'owl in the Psalms (Jesus went there) and shĕ'owl in Isaiah 5:14? I really don't want to say things that aren't true so I would appreciate you clearing this up for me.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (shĕ'owl ); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell (shĕ'owl) hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
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SURE....called CONTEXT.............and UNTIL JESUS resurrected.....the SAVED went to PARADISE (ABRAHAM'S BOSOM) which was LOCATED in the center of the EARTH and separated from HELL wich is the abode of the LOST until the GWT judgment.....ALSO located in the CENTER of the EARTH.....

Brother....PAY attention to the bolded.....these are the actual WORDS and the DIFFERENCE in the words.......BIBLE HUB if you want to check....and on top of this WE CANNOT alleviate LUKE 16.....the word of GOD is PROGRESSIVE in revelation and it is DISHONEST to deny what JESUS STATES in his own words in LUKE and what he states to the THIEF......

Psalm
לִשְׁא֑וֹל
liš-’ō-wl;
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Isaiah
שְּׁאוֹל֙
šə-’ō-wl
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
 
KJV1611 said:
Before we leave this topic would you be so kind as to explain what is the difference between shĕ'owl in the Psalms (Jesus went there) and shĕ'owl in Isaiah 5:14? I really don't want to say things that aren't true so I would appreciate you clearing this up for me.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (shĕ'owl ); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell (shĕ'owl) hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
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You discovered a couple other ERRORS in the KJV of the Bible the Original tranlastors forgot to correct.

Psalm 16:10 (HCSB)
10 For You will not abandon me to Sheol [ A Hebrew word for either the Grave, or the Realm of the Dead.]; You will not allow Your Faithful One to see decay.

Isaiah 5:14 (HCSB)
14 Therefore Sheol [ A Hebrew word for either the Grave, or the Realm of the Dead.] enlarges its throat and opens wide its enormous jaws, and down go Zion’s dignitaries, her masses, her crowds, and those who carouse in her!
 
dcontroversal said:
SURE....called CONTEXT.............and UNTIL JESUS resurrected.....the SAVED went to PARADISE (ABRAHAM'S BOSOM) which was LOCATED in the center of the EARTH and separated from HELL wich is the abode of the LOST until the GWT judgment.....ALSO located in the CENTER of the EARTH.....

Brother....PAY attention to the bolded.....these are the actual WORDS and the DIFFERENCE in the words.......BIBLE HUB if you want to check....and on top of this WE CANNOT alleviate LUKE 16.....the word of GOD is PROGRESSIVE in revelation and it is DISHONEST to deny what JESUS STATES in his own words in LUKE and what he states to the THIEF......

Psalm
לִשְׁא֑וֹל
liš-’ō-wl;
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Isaiah
שְּׁאוֹל֙
šə-’ō-wl
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
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Maybe I'm a little dense but from what I read, BOTH definitions say EXACTLY the same thing. Could you bold where they are different?

Psalm
לִשְׁא֑וֹל
liš-’ō-wl;
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Isaiah
שְּׁאוֹל֙
šə-’ō-wl
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

I copied and pasted from each definition. The one on top is from the Psalms and the one below it is from Isaiah. I don't see what point you're making.

sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל

Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine

Transliteration: sheol
Transliteration: sheol

Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')

Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
 
VCO said:
You discovered a couple other ERRORS in the KJV of the Bible the Original tranlastors forgot to correct.

Psalm 16:10 (HCSB)
10 For You will not abandon me to Sheol [ A Hebrew word for either the Grave, or the Realm of the Dead.]; You will not allow Your Faithful One to see decay.

Isaiah 5:14 (HCSB)
14 Therefore Sheol [ A Hebrew word for either the Grave, or the Realm of the Dead.] enlarges its throat and opens wide its enormous jaws, and down go Zion’s dignitaries, her masses, her crowds, and those who carouse in her!
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It's hell/Sheol in Psalms and Isaiah. What is the error?
 
KJV1611 said:
Maybe I'm a little dense but from what I read, BOTH definitions say EXACTLY the same thing. Could you bold where they are different?

Psalm
לִשְׁא֑וֹל
liš-’ō-wl;
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Isaiah
שְּׁאוֹל֙
šə-’ō-wl
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

I copied and pasted from each definition. The one on top is from the Psalms and the one below it is from Isaiah. I don't see what point you're making.

sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל

Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine

Transliteration: sheol
Transliteration: sheol

Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')

Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
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Again you are disregarding the fact that I just showed you they are two different words with two different appl.....
You are copying and pasting the ROOT word....they are NOT the same word and regardless.....WE cannot disregard the progressive revelation of the truth that applies to the two different PLACES the dead were KEPT until the resurrection and or the GWT judgment.....

I will not address you again....YOU ASKED me to explain....I gave you one reply with GOOD common biblical sense and PROVED it by the verbiage....this is the 2nd time I have given you SOLID biblical truth based upon verbiage and classification of the TWO WORDS USED and WHY they are different.....this is the PROBLEM with those who have gone to SEED on the King JAMES...they REFUSE to acept the truth when it contradicts their erroneous VIEW.....NOTE the classifications of the TWO DIFFERENT WORDS MAN and BE HONEST with the truth!!!!!!!!!

Psalm <---Translated Grave, In the Grave and hell.......NOTE Prep-l | N-cs
לִשְׁא֑וֹל
liš-’ō-wl;

Isaiah <---translated PIT, HELL, GRAVE........NOTE N-cs

שְּׁאוֹל֙
šə-’ō-wl
 
Are there any Hebrew experts here that can explain why these two words mean different things.

I think it's because liš-’ō-wl means "In hell".
And šə-’ō-wl means "Therefore hell".

Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

Psalm
לִשְׁא֑וֹל
liš-’ō-wl;
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Isaiah
שְּׁאוֹל֙
šə-’ō-wl
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
 
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