Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality

[Magenta]

okay thats it you are going on about the same thing like an emotional woman riding on a pink unicorn. its over im not gonna discuss on this level.

i already said you can call it whatever you want. you already answered the question which was: no. they do not exist.

therefore, its just like it was before i was born i did not exist. oh and you didnt find eternal torment? try revelation 14:11.

and thats it there is no debate no controversy its there. bible says it, i believe it, that settles it.

You were not sleeping before you were conceived and born. Why insist on calling either side of non-existence sleep? Total destruction is not sleep. Your ad homs and denials do not help your case. You simply come across as confused, and/or deliberately trying to cloud the issue.

 

[Magenta]

you are going on about the same thing

I am staying on topic! It is the best way to conduct a discussion, unlike your descension into ad hom ravings and false accusations. Either you can acknowledge that there is no consciousness possible in a state of non-existence, or you can pretend people who do not exist are somehow magically alive in some state of sleep. So far you have opted for the latter and claim that others teach your confusion.

 

[Melach]

I am staying on topic! It is the best way to conduct a discussion, unlike your descension into ad hom ravings and false accusations. Either you can acknowledge that there is no consciousness possible in a state of non-existence, or you can pretend people who do not exist are somehow magically alive in some state of sleep. So far you have opted for the latter and claim that others teach your confusion.

i already agreed with your irrelevent point. go bake a cake.
go bicker with someone else im not interested. i already said ok lets say its non-existance like three times what is wrong with you?

its non-existance its non-existance. makes no difference whatsoever, its not a big punishment to not exist. practically its just nothing. we already have capital punishment here on earth. God is just gonan do it a second time with no comeback? no scripture speaks of much worse. Jesus said better to cut off a hand than go there in full, me personally i would rather die than lose a limb and be unable to function. if i could choose.

i never claimed there is a state of consciencess possible in a state of non-existance. sheesh. you are sounding like a calvinist debater. leave me alone unicorn woman!

 

[Magenta]

i never claimed there is a state of consciencess possible in a state of non-existance. sheesh. you are sounding like a calvinist debater. leave me alone unicorn woman!

Yes you did.

because that is what annihilationists teach. they teach you cease to exist. you dont know whats going on. which means like going to sleep or dying in the flesh.

Of course people who do not exist do not know what is going on. They do not exist! Teaching one ceases to exist is not saying they sleep.

If you do not want to have this conversation, stop responding to me. I will continue to correct your error.

 

[Melach]

Yes you did.

yes, going to sleep is what i said. which practically is same. you are just going off about nothing its so ridicilous

when you sleep, do you know whats going on? no. when you dont exist, do you know whats going on? no. thats why i said it. later when you said about it i said ok lets say non-existance then three times too btw or maybe even four now.. and you are still going on about it.... is this how you behave with people?

 

[Magenta]

yes, going to sleep is what i said. which practically is same. you are just going off about nothing its so ridicilous

when you sleep, do you know whats going on? no. when you dont exist, do you know whats going on? no. thats why i said it. later when you said about it i said ok lets say non-existance then. and you are still going on about it.... is this how you behave with people?

No, it is not practically the same. People who do not exist cannot sleep, or enter a state like sleep. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

 

[Melach]

No, it tis not practically the same. People who do not exist cannot sleep, or enter a state like sleep. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

yes yes yes yes. SO WHAT

SO WHAT THAT THEY CANNOT SLEEP I DONT CARe

SO WHAT

WHAT IS YOUR POINT ?!?!?!?!? THEY CANNOT SLEEP OKAY I GET IT. SO WHAT? THEY DONT EXIST. SO WHAT??!??! has nothing to do with anything.

THEY DO NOT EXIST WE GET IT. I GET IT. EVERYONE THATS NOT RETARDED GETS IT. WHOOPTY DOO. so now that we know they dont exist. its the second death. what is your point about that?

you better make a point about this. what is the point. they dont exist they dont exist they dont exist they dont exist. so that means its a garbage punishment. its useless. losing a limb in this life is a bigger punsihment than that in my opinion.

 

[Magenta]

yes yes yes yes. SO WHAT

SO WHAT THAT THEY CANNOT SLEEP I DONT CARe

SO WHAT

WHAT IS YOUR POINT ?!?!?!?!? THEY CANNOT SLEEP OKAY I GET IT. SO WHAT? THEY DONT EXIST. SO WHAT??!??! has nothing to do with anything.

It refutes what you originally said. I do not call your false claims and promotion of error nothing.

good topic. yes annihilationism makes gospel pointless. im not afraid to sleep forever lolz

 

[Gregoryp]

people started getting soft in 19th century it looks like. they cant take the truth so they make traditions of men to sugarcoat God and invent their own way.

which is still happening today. All of the organised religions I have been to have fallen way short of the truth. All sugar coated, or pomp and ceremony, misquoted scripture, no mention of the eternal fire, no mention of the consequences of sin without repentance etc. And yes, there is a hell, eternal torment, punishment for ignoring the word and the existence of God.

 

[Magenta]

**content removed**

Yes, I did report this. I just saw you say you were not a name caller in another thread.

Equating the second death with sleep is error.

 

[Magenta]

its not a big punishment to not exist. practically its just nothing. we already have capital punishment here on earth. God is just gonan do it a second time with no comeback? no scripture speaks of much worse. Jesus said better to cut off a hand than go there in full, me personally i would rather die than lose a limb and be unable to function. if i could choose.

You contradict yourself. Death is one of, if not the harshest punishments there is. I consider life precious. Don't you? I think most do. Who in their right mind wants to die? To not exist at all is a very terrifying prospect for some. Too bad you cannot acknowledge this from your perspective.

 

[dcontroversal]

I was an annihilationist at one point, and have since rejected it.

Why?

I realize now that annihilationists confuse types in the Old Testament with the reality.

What do I mean by that?

The OT often portrayed the fate of the wicked to be reduction to ashes through the fire of judgment. The wicked were no longer able to effect their evil in the created realm. Additionally, the imagery of being eaten by maggots was used.

However, the OT communicates in shadows and types. These are "fuzzy pictures" of the reality.

If the fate of the wicked is presented in such terms in the OT, and the NT provides more detail, these NT accounts are not contradictory. The OT did not communicate in a clearly focused manner on some topics. Eternal punishment was one of them.

So, if the NT indicates that eternal torment is the fate of the wicked, and that the wicked continue to exist in a state where they are shut off from the presence of God, we need not dismiss these Scriptures, and revert back to the OT shadows and types.

I would agree that if one views Scripture in a simplistic, flattened manner, annihilationism might seem reasonable. But when one understands the way the Bible is put together, and the employment of shadows and types, annihilationism doesn't seem reasonable.

For instance, I see a typology between the Garden of Eden, the Israelite camp, Jerusalem, and the New Heavens and New Earth. In each case, a certain space is defined as holy space. The unholy are placed outside of it. They are spiritually dead in the sense that they are no longer in God's presence, but they are conscious.

For instance, Adam and Eve were placed outside of the Garden of Eden after their rebellion. Unclean individuals were placed outside of the Israelite camp, as well as the city of Jerusalem. And, finally, the unrighteous are placed outside of the New Heavens and New Earth.

They are no longer able to effect evil in the created realm anymore. However, they still exist outside of the New Heavens and New Earth.

I suggest reading Revelation 21-22 in this regard.

Anyways, I believe the fundamental problem with annihilationists is their hermeneutic. They are viewing the type (physical destruction and annihilationism) as being the reality. They are reading the OT forward into the NT, instead of using the lense of the NT to evaluate the OT.

Additionally, it is plain to see that words like death, destruction, and perishing can be viewed in ways other than the annihilationist is viewing them. For example, Ephesians 2 describes the state of the man in Adam, who is not born-again. The first verses of the chapter describe him as being dead, because he is spiritually separated from God, and not fulfilling his intended purpose as a result.

I can understand why annihilationists believe their position, but I disagree with it based primarily on the above. Understanding typology within Scripture and how the NT uses the OT is important in regards to evaluating truth-claims like this.

By the way, I don't consider annihilationists to be heretical by definition, although many annihilationists are heretical because of their other doctrines. For instance, several major cults are annihilationists.

I agree.......the bible is clear when taken in the whole.....so is the verbiage!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

The Rich Man and Lazarus.

They will squirm and call it a parable

 

[Lightskin]

They will squirm and call it a parable

Exactly. And even if it was a parable, which it is not, Jesus makes it clear what awaits those who do not have salvation.

 

[garee]

They will squirm and call it a parable

Yes the last parable in a series of five .God somehow throws in a literal interpretation? What would that accomplish? Parables help us walk by faith the unseen.


We by reason of suffering can squirm. Those buried have no wiggle room .It for the worms eating dead flesh that has no a spirit life make a way for the worms to move.

 

[dcontroversal]

Exactly. And even if it was a parable, which it is not, Jesus makes it clear what awaits those who do not have salvation.

I always shake my head at what they peddle....Jesus using an imaginary fake place that does not exist to teach truth.....sorry...that is deceptive and he does. ot work that way.....!

 

[Nehemiah6]

They will squirm and call it a parable

Parables ILLUSTRATE spiritual truths. But what could the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus illustrate other than the facts that:

(1) before the resurrection of Christ the souls and spirits of those who died went to Sheol/Hades ,

(2) the righteous dead were separated from the unrighteous by a very wide chasm,

(3) the righteous dead were comforted but the unrighteous were in conscious torments,

(4) there are no second chances after death, and there is no crossing over from the region of unrighteousness to the region of righteousness,

(5) that the time to give heed to the Gospel is when men are still on earth, and

(6) those who refuse to believe the Bible will not be converted even though one rose from the dead (as did Christ).

Christ -- who is God and who created both Hades and the Lake of Fire -- raised the veil over the afterlife in this solemn narrative. If the naysayers will not believe Him in this matter, then they do not really believe Jesus in anything else.

Today, those who are in Sheol/Hades are awaiting their final judgment at the Great White Throne. That is when Hades will be metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire, in which there is eternal conscious torment.

 

[garee]

I agree.......the bible is clear when taken in the whole.....so is the verbiage!!!

God is not merciless.

Yes verbiage take away the breath of life. . . the dead flesh and blood returns to the clay never to rise to new spirit life again

Psalm 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Hell by reason of living suffering .God does not accept dead sacrifices

Dead people have no reason to pray, no tongue, no desire to drink water. As soon as they take the last breath under the sun it universal Alzheimer's . None of the former things will be remember for ever more . He would of forgot what he was suffering for.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Eccl 9:5-6



Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

 

[Magenta]

They will squirm and call it a parable

Making up some rule which is nowhere found in Scripture, to say it cannot be a parable, looks like eisegesis to me.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes the last parable in a series of five .God somehow throws in a literal interpretation? What would that accomplish? Parables help us walk by faith the unseen.


We by reason of suffering can squirm. Those buried have no wiggle room .It for the worms eating dead flesh that has no a spirit life make a way for the worms to move.

Sorry....it ia not called a parable and is nothing like a parable.......regardless of everyone that peddles it as a parable!