Why Im Not A Pacifist

[calibob]

One of the biggest mistakes the newly freed Israelites made was not putting the idolatrous Canaanites to the sword. The Bible says do not commit murder. Cities of refuge were established for those who committed manslaughter. we are to turn the other cheek to our brothers and not lay down and be run over by our enemies. I'm a very peacefull man but come after my family with violence and I'll try hard to kill with the first blow, club, machete or shotgun blast let the courts decide while my family survives. "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Unknown

 

[kaylagrl]

I am a Christian pacifist because i believe Jesus told me to love my enemies.. You do not love your enemies by shooting them or blowing them to pieces.. Thats not loving.. That's killing..

King David shed blood in war, and he was called a man after God's own heart. There were times God told them to go in and clean everyone out. Clearly God doesn't have an issue with war when it is in self defense or defending your family.

 

[Lanolin]

King David shed blood in war, and he was called a man after God's own heart. There were times God told them to go in and clean everyone out. Clearly God doesn't have an issue with war when it is in self defense or defending your family.

He wasnt allowed to build the house of God though.

Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers. Pacific means peaceful. Apparently there is a difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking. Certainly living in times of peace is much better than living in a warzone.

Jesus also said my peace I give you, the peace that passes all understanding. Peace is one of the nine fruits of the holy spirit, and you can tell a person by their fruits. I dont think many people understand this fruit or what it means. They are way too distracted making war.

 

[Lanolin]

Martin lUther king jr was shot, I dont reaLly know who shot him but he knew for some time people were out to kill him yet he never carried a weapon or told anyone else to react with violence. His house was bombed and so were many churches.

jesus was crucified on the cross. Even jesus own family were his enemies.

With the canaanites they actually werent out to kill the isralites, the israelites were taking what was their territory basically, the land of canaan and claiming it for God. The canaanites way of idolatry was not to primarily to kill the israelites but to intermarry with them and seduce them into idolatrous practices, sacrificing their babies etc which was why God wanted them out.

I dont think people quite understand that and think the violence was somehow avenging them. Back then they had no way of converting the cannanaites because Jesus hadnt opened the way for repentence yet. But do note that Ruth, a moabite, CHOSE to follow God. That was what God was after, but ahe could see the canaanites were iredeemable, their iniquity was full. They pretty much destoryed themselves and God would have just sent hornets rather than have the Israelites kill them.

 

[Adstar]

King David shed blood in war, and he was called a man after God's own heart. There were times God told them to go in and clean everyone out. Clearly God doesn't have an issue with war when it is in self defense or defending your family.

Yes and God used the Jewish People as a tool of His wrath upon the nations in Canaan and the nations around it.. David and the other leaders of Israel if they followed Gods orders to engage in war would succeed because God was with them.. But whenever God sent messages to His people not to fight.. They would get defeated..

Now what is Gods last orders to His followers? What was the orders the LORD Jesus Christ gave us on His sermon on the mount? What are the orders we now follow in the Age of Grace established by Jesus on the cross???

To wage carnal combat or to love our enemies? To fight with guns and swords? Or to fight using the Word of God? To attack the lost physically or to undermine the wicked spirits in high places that have those people decieved?

You decide..

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes and God used the Jewish People as a tool of His wrath upon the nations in Canaan and the nations around it.. David and the other leaders of Israel if they followed Gods orders to engage in war would succeed because God was with them.. But whenever God sent messages to His people not to fight.. They would get defeated..

Now what is Gods last orders to His followers? What was the orders the LORD Jesus Christ gave us on His sermon on the mount? What are the orders we now follow in the Age of Grace established by Jesus on the cross???

To wage carnal combat or to love our enemies? To fight with guns and swords? Or to fight using the Word of God? To attack the lost physically or to undermine the wicked spirits in high places that have those people decieved?

You decide..

Just because Christ's mission did not deal with war doesn't mean He disagreed with it. I thought these were some interesting points;

When Jesus was approached by a solider, he healed his servant and then praised him for his faith (Matt. 8:5-13). He never rebuked him for his service as a soldier like he rebuked the rich man for his wealth (Mark 10:21-22) and the adulterous for her adultery (John 4:16-18).

When Jesus sent his disciples out...he
commanded them to take their necessary bags, coats, and if necessary—sell their cloak to purchase a sword.

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:26).

Jesus understood that his followers were going out into a dark land of depravity and they would likely need a sword for simple protection. Soon thereafter, Jesus was with his followers in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night of his betrayal and subsequent arrest. Peter drew his sword to defend Jesus and struck the servant of the high priest—cutting off his ear (Mark 14:47).


Interestingly enough, Peter had a sword just as Jesus commanded. While Jesus rebuked Peter for defending him, he didn’t rebuke Peter for having a sword. Jesus was not teaching the tenants of pacifism as he was being arrested. Instead, Jesus was giving a lesson on his sovereignty. It was not the evil men who would take his life—as he had already taught in John 10:18—he had the power to lay his life down and to raise it up again. Jesus was no pacifist. Jesus is operating on the specific timeline that was arranged before the world was established. Jesus had to die on the specific day at the specific moment in history and no person or people (Peter notwithstanding) would hinder that plan.


Where would we have been had Hitler been allowed to continue murdering Jews? Down through history there have been just wars and they have been fought to protect a country and it's people. The God of the OT is the same God in the NT. His opinion did not change. If it had He would have told us not to wage war. Jesus never said that and never rebuked anyone for being a soldier, nor did his disciples. Jesus was not a pacifist.

 

[kaylagrl]

He wasnt allowed to build the house of God though.

Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers. Pacific means peaceful. Apparently there is a difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking. Certainly living in times of peace is much better than living in a warzone.

Jesus also said my peace I give you, the peace that passes all understanding. Peace is one of the nine fruits of the holy spirit, and you can tell a person by their fruits. I dont think many people understand this fruit or what it means. They are way too distracted making war.

I've already responded to this in another post. Jesus was not a pacifist. Some believe that when Joshua met the "commander of the army of the Lord" before the battle of Jericho that he met the pre-incarnate Christ. He had a drawn sword in his hand. That sounds like a person ready for battle. There are times wars must be fought and Jesus never rebuked a soldier nor did He speak against just wars. Sometimes there is no way to defeat evil, we must stand and fight.

 

[calibob]

Martin lUther king jr was shot, I dont reaLly know who shot him but he knew for some time people were out to kill him yet he never carried a weapon or told anyone else to react with violence. His house was bombed and so were many churches.

jesus was crucified on the cross. Even jesus own family were his enemies.

With the canaanites they actually werent out to kill the isralites, the israelites were taking what was their territory basically, the land of canaan and claiming it for God. The canaanites way of idolatry was not to primarily to kill the israelites but to intermarry with them and seduce them into idolatrous practices, sacrificing their babies etc which was why God wanted them out.

I dont think people quite understand that and think the violence was somehow avenging them. Back then they had no way of converting the cannanaites because Jesus hadnt opened the way for repentence yet. But do note that Ruth, a moabite, CHOSE to follow God. That was what God was after, but ahe could see the canaanites were iredeemable, their iniquity was full. They pretty much destoryed themselves and God would have just sent hornets rather than have the Israelites kill them.

The Israelites were ordered to slay them. I believe the ones that fled when they knew about the Israelites record after they fled Egypt surely escaped the judgment that was supposed to fall on those who lingered.

The case in point I was referring to in home defense vs home invasion robberies. I see you are from New Zealand. Perhaps you haven't heard of armed thugs bursting into your home to loot rape, rob and pillage while you are home. Unfortunately it happens in the USA. 3rd offence is punishable by life in prison in some states. However many states have what's called a 'Castle law'. It simply means a persons home is their castle and in the case of such an offence the use of deadly force is justifiable even to the point of homicide. Killing in self defense is still homicide even when it is deemed justifiable by the court system. (They have to call it something.)

 

[calibob]

BTW; Charles Manson had 12 parole hearings after his conviction for 7 murders.

 

[Adstar]

Just because Christ's mission did not deal with war doesn't mean He disagreed with it. I thought these were some interesting points;

When Jesus was approached by a solider, he healed his servant and then praised him for his faith (Matt. 8:5-13). He never rebuked him for his service as a soldier like he rebuked the rich man for his wealth (Mark 10:21-22) and the adulterous for her adultery (John 4:16-18).

When Jesus sent his disciples out...he
commanded them to take their necessary bags, coats, and if necessary—sell their cloak to purchase a sword.

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:26).

Jesus understood that his followers were going out into a dark land of depravity and they would likely need a sword for simple protection. Soon thereafter, Jesus was with his followers in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night of his betrayal and subsequent arrest. Peter drew his sword to defend Jesus and struck the servant of the high priest—cutting off his ear (Mark 14:47).


Interestingly enough, Peter had a sword just as Jesus commanded. While Jesus rebuked Peter for defending him, he didn’t rebuke Peter for having a sword. Jesus was not teaching the tenants of pacifism as he was being arrested. Instead, Jesus was giving a lesson on his sovereignty. It was not the evil men who would take his life—as he had already taught in John 10:18—he had the power to lay his life down and to raise it up again. Jesus was no pacifist. Jesus is operating on the specific timeline that was arranged before the world was established. Jesus had to die on the specific day at the specific moment in history and no person or people (Peter notwithstanding) would hinder that plan.


Where would we have been had Hitler been allowed to continue murdering Jews? Down through history there have been just wars and they have been fought to protect a country and it's people. The God of the OT is the same God in the NT. His opinion did not change. If it had He would have told us not to wage war. Jesus never said that and never rebuked anyone for being a soldier, nor did his disciples. Jesus was not a pacifist.

Jesus called upon them to get a sword because He had to fulfill prophecy that He would be numbered with the transgressors.. When they told Him they had two swords He said it was enough... Why only two swords? Because only one was needed.. The one that was used on the man who was in the group that came to arrest Jesus.. That was the Last time the apostles used a sword..

Luke 22: KJV
36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. {37} For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. {38} And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

2 Corinthians 10: KJV
4 "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;"

 

[Magenta]

King David shed blood in war, and he was called a man after God's own heart. There were times God told them to go in and clean everyone out. Clearly God doesn't have an issue with war when it is in self defense or defending your family.

Or destroying the wicked.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Self defense or the sanctity of life is a natural law just as evident and observant as the moral law.

Natures laws come from God.

Therefore the right to self defense or the protection of the sanctity of life is good within morality and each of those laws comes from God.

What subject more than life is more important to protect?

Otherwise we have no need for laws.

Otherwise abortion shouldn't be legislated.

Otherwise the murderer shouldn't be put to death.

No need for Police either who the lawbreaker is their enemy.

No need for military who battles foreign and domestic enemies.

Laws legislate morality. And morality dictates what we should and shouldn't do on the concept of life.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Exodus 22:2-3
2 “If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed.

(This verse above is where the Castle doctrine or 2nd Amendment found roots in.)

Luke 11:21
21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.

Romans 7:12
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

1 Timothy 1:8
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

2 Timothy 3:26
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Luke 22:36
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Greek word for English sword:

3162. machaira
properly, a slaughter-knife; a short sword or dagger mainly used for stabbing; (figuratively) an instrument for exacting retribution.

Retribution- requital according to merits or deserts, especially for evil.

Nehemiah 4:10-14
10 Meanwhile, the people in Judah said, “The strength of the laborers is giving out, and there is so much rubble that we cannot rebuild the wall.”

11 Also our enemies said, “Before they know it or see us, we will be right there among them and will kill them and put an end to the work.”

12 Then the Jews who lived near them came and told us ten times over, “Wherever you turn, they will attack us.”

13 Therefore I stationed some of the people behind the lowest points of the wall at the exposed places, posting them by families, with their swords, spears and bows. 14 After I looked things over, I stood up and said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your families, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.”

Who gave this command to self defend your family and homes? God or Nehemiah? Was it wrong for Nehemiah to issue this command while doing the work of the Lord?

John 18:37
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Jesus is making a distinction of two worlds. Heavenly and Earth. Jesus said if his Kingdom was of this world, his servants would fight to protect him.

Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).

Ecclesiastes 3:1-11
A Time for Everything
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time.

https://freedomoutpost.com/black-ro...-a-time-to-fight-and-now-is-the-time-to-fight

Everything beautiful in it's time including the time of war. Does anything within time take God by surprise? Or does God use everything to still bring about His will?

So if the Law is good, holy, righteous, and all of scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Then everything listed above is good, holy, righteous and good to learn and train from in order to promote righteousness.

Also self defense against evil tyrannical governments is also well explained in John Locke's book called Two Treaties ( scripture is referenced more than 1500 times)

Examples of leaders raised up against tyrannical governments. Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jepthah, Samson, and Deborah who was praised for their actions in Hebrews 11 Heroes of faith.

Also we have to remember God ordained boundaries for the individual, the family, the church and Government. For example Romans 13 doesn't give permission to the individual, family, or church to be the police or military but only Government. Government has this authority where as God commands the individual and church to take care of the poor. Taking care of the poor wasn't Governments responsibility.

Final words:
Keep in mind this subject I am speaking very broadly and any situation dealing with violence must be well thought through because as a Christian love is the greatest commandment, revenge is wrong, anger is wrong, murder is wrong, to act unjustly is wrong, we are to strive to be the peacemakers. I may speak on this subject as so matter of fact but due the higher calling of the Christian it often falls into the right to conscience for the believer. If the believer feels he is justified then so he is but if he doesn't then he isnt by the sin, lack of faith.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Jesus called upon them to get a sword because He had to fulfill prophecy that He would be numbered with the transgressors.. When they told Him they had two swords He said it was enough... Why only two swords? Because only one was needed.. The one that was used on the man who was in the group that came to arrest Jesus.. That was the Last time the apostles used a sword..

Luke 22: KJV
36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. {37} For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. {38} And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

2 Corinthians 10: KJV
4 "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;"

Prophecy has usefulness now and later. So do you believe the purse, bag, sword or cloak had no purpose for the disciples?

But besides that verse 37 but this that is written - And he was reckoned among the transgressors. Was a reference to not verse 36 but Isaiah 53:12.

Isaiah 53:12
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Where is the reference to a sword? Otherwise your making assumptions.

2 Corinthians 10

As explained in my post above, it isnt God ordained for the individual, the family, or the church to wage war. So for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal,

Paul already explained in Romans 13 that warfare was God ordained through government.

Jesus never condemned the soldier but actually told one he hadn't seen as great of faith as his.

Self defense or defense of others is a hard stretch to call that waging warfare. But as for me I see all the other scriptures I posted above or the moral law within my consciences bearing witness, and my beliefs defending them.

The American Civil War was mainly fought over slavery. Both sides prayed to the same God and had the same Bible.

The North was pushing to abolish slavery while the South wanted to keep it. The South wanted to separate and continue the act of slavery and thus starting the war.

A great sin as the American slavery was. One side was just in fighting to save and liberate the African slave.

A nation of mostly Christians separated over this main issue. Do you believe it was wrong for the Christian to choose the Northern side and join the governing army to fight for this cause?

( Fun fact: It wasn't until Abraham Lincoln knelt in prayer and promising to God if he won the next battle he would free the slaves. The Union was losing terribly against the Confederacy until that one prayer, that one battle was won by the Union and turned the whole war around. In which led to the freedom of the American slave.)

 

[Adstar]

Paul already explained in Romans 13 that warfare was God ordained through government.

Yes Worldly Kingdoms and Worldly Kings.. Once we become Christians we become citizens of the Kingdom of God and our King is the King of Kings and LORD of LORD's ... Who rules the kingdoms of the earth? What did satan offer Jesus when he tempted Him in the wilderness? All the kingdoms of the earth... Paul himself talked of giving sexual offenders over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..

1 Corinthians 5:KJV
1 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. {2} And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. {3} For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, {4} In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, {5} To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Who carries out physical execution of the flesh on earth? Worldly Authorities that's who..

Jesus never condemned the soldier but actually told one he hadn't seen as great of faith as his.

Matthew 8: KJV
5 "¶ And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, {6} And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. {7} And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. {8} The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed."

The Soilder was a Roman Centurion.. He was not a Jew.. Jesus first came with His message to the Jews and later Paul and other Apostles where sent to the gentiles.. Jesus dealt with the Roman centurion where He was at in relation to the Word of God at that time.. The LORD deals with different people differently at different times..

A nation of mostly Christians separated over this main issue. Do you believe it was wrong for the Christian to choose the Northern side and join the governing army to fight for this cause?

They should have chosen neither side..

 

[Hillfarm]

Just because Christ's mission did not deal with war doesn't mean He disagreed with it. I thought these were some interesting points;

When Jesus was approached by a solider, he healed his servant and then praised him for his faith (Matt. 8:5-13). He never rebuked him for his service as a soldier like he rebuked the rich man for his wealth (Mark 10:21-22) and the adulterous for her adultery (John 4:16-18).

When Jesus sent his disciples out...he
commanded them to take their necessary bags, coats, and if necessary—sell their cloak to purchase a sword.

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:26).

Jesus understood that his followers were going out into a dark land of depravity and they would likely need a sword for simple protection. Soon thereafter, Jesus was with his followers in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night of his betrayal and subsequent arrest. Peter drew his sword to defend Jesus and struck the servant of the high priest—cutting off his ear (Mark 14:47).


Interestingly enough, Peter had a sword just as Jesus commanded. While Jesus rebuked Peter for defending him, he didn’t rebuke Peter for having a sword. Jesus was not teaching the tenants of pacifism as he was being arrested. Instead, Jesus was giving a lesson on his sovereignty. It was not the evil men who would take his life—as he had already taught in John 10:18—he had the power to lay his life down and to raise it up again. Jesus was no pacifist. Jesus is operating on the specific timeline that was arranged before the world was established. Jesus had to die on the specific day at the specific moment in history and no person or people (Peter notwithstanding) would hinder that plan.


Where would we have been had Hitler been allowed to continue murdering Jews? Down through history there have been just wars and they have been fought to protect a country and it's people. The God of the OT is the same God in the NT. His opinion did not change. If it had He would have told us not to wage war. Jesus never said that and never rebuked anyone for being a soldier, nor did his disciples. Jesus was not a pacifist.

Well said, Jesus was a rebel, a teacher, a healer, a divider, a caster out of demons as well as many other things, but most importantly God on earth. Jesus was not a pacifist and where does it say in the bible God is a pacifist?
I would love to hear how pacifist deal with manipulative people who bully their way through life taking anything they want. My grandmother was a pacifist and she was completely bulldozed by her neighbors who were this type. They borrowed money they never intended to repay, made her pay for all shared road maintenance, tore her fences down, kept their dogs on her, their stolen property and problems on my grandmother. It made my grandmother weak and drove my uncle to the mental ward at the hospital over a half a dozen times. [Look up the spirit of witchcraft and see the bible says its from manipulation and intimidation] In my opinion, these kinds of people ( and the world is full of these narcisistic types) eat pacifists for snacks.
I'm not saying those who choose this way are wrong, I just would like to hear how someone like that would deal with people like these. Please don't respond with prayer and faith only. If those two, would have kept the neighbors from breaking in our home, intimidation, harassment, stalking, theft, dogs barking and circling the house at all hours of the day and night, being ran over purposely in your own driveway by a felon on parole with no insurance, having your newly installed fences tore down on over a half dozen occasions, having your car windows smashed out with rocks and shot out with BB guns, having rocks thrown at you while driving, constantly being trespassed upon and having your farm used as a playground for their enjoyment and motorized sports, herbiciding your orchards and other plantings, feeding their dogs on your property so the dogs bark at you, every step you make on your own property, all while never being charged with a crime by local authorities, then I believe three decades of my grandmothers prayers would have worked, before now. Because, to these types, if you look like food, you will be eaten.

 

[kaylagrl]

Jesus called upon them to get a sword because He had to fulfill prophecy that He would be numbered with the transgressors.. When they told Him they had two swords He said it was enough... Why only two swords? Because only one was needed.. The one that was used on the man who was in the group that came to arrest Jesus.. That was the Last time the apostles used a sword..

Luke 22: KJV
36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. {37} For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. {38} And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

2 Corinthians 10: KJV
4 "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;"

Again, Jesus never rebuked the soldier, He never said not to go to war. Jesus was not trying to lead an insurrection, as the Jews had thought. That wasn't His mission. But Jesus did not condemn war. If war was wrong in the NT it was wrong in the OT, Jesus never said don't go to war and defend your country. If He had the blacks would still be in slavery and there wouldn't be a Jew left on the earth. Just wars must still be fought, Jesus never spoke against them.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes Worldly Kingdoms and Worldly Kings.. Once we become Christians we become citizens of the Kingdom of God and our King is the King of Kings and LORD of LORD's ... Who rules the kingdoms of the earth? What did satan offer Jesus when he tempted Him in the wilderness? All the kingdoms of the earth... Paul himself talked of giving sexual offenders over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..

1 Corinthians 5:KJV
1 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. {2} And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. {3} For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, {4} In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, {5} To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Who carries out physical execution of the flesh on earth? Worldly Authorities that's who..




Matthew 8: KJV
5 "¶ And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, {6} And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. {7} And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. {8} The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed."

The Soilder was a Roman Centurion.. He was not a Jew.. Jesus first came with His message to the Jews and later Paul and other Apostles where sent to the gentiles.. Jesus dealt with the Roman centurion where He was at in relation to the Word of God at that time.. The LORD deals with different people differently at different times..




They should have chosen neither side..

Dont see either point you just made. We may be citizens of a higher kingdom but we also still live in a Earthly kingdom. We are to still act within the earthly kingdom protecting what is right, what is just and be the peacemakers at all times possible.

Matthew 5:9
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

WW2 after all the prayers it still took good to physically eradicate evil with obvious divine interventions as events just miraculously worked towards the good of those who fought to defend the innocent, to free the Jews, to liberate the oppressed, and to protect their wives and children from the war hitting the homefront.

You said they should of chose neither side in the Civil War. Is that loving your neighbor if your willing to sit aside and watch them continue to be oppressed by slavery when by none of your intentions the time of history around you is coming to a pivotal moment where in order to be a peacemaker you must respond to keep the peace knowing which side is just and right?

But your right to conscience is just as important. You have just as much right to die or let your family or neighbors die at the hands of evil without lifting a finger. The world needs their Stephens just as much as its Gideons.

Our history is filled with Christians who have taken either course. Your death may just be the spark that raises up a Gideon or Gideons to respond to such evil. This is the reality of the world. And I do believe God works in every situation to bring about His will.

 

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You said they should of chose neither side in the Civil War. Is that loving your neighbor if your willing to sit aside and watch them continue to be oppressed by slavery when by none of your intentions the time of history around you is coming to a pivotal moment where in order to be a peacemaker you must respond to keep the peace knowing which side is just and right?

I will allow God to judge the evil doers..

If the USA was a Christian from the start then slavery would never have happened.. It would never have been an issue leading to a civil war because Christians would never take part in buying slaves..

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I will allow God to judge the evil doers..

If the USA was a Christian from the start then slavery would never have happened.. It would never have been an issue leading to a civil war because Christians would never take part in buying slaves..

If only every nation, every tribe, and every group was without their sins. Fallen world is the reality and no Christian has ever had a perfect Christian world.

The US came out of a British rule economy that largely depended on the slave trade especially in the southern hemisphere where agriculture was easily grown. Sometimes a Christian doesn't choose what they are born into historically speaking. And neither is it accurate to say all Christians in those times supported slavery.

That's just like saying all the Indians was peaceful. Or to blame all the Europeans for their downfall.

I see pacifism under the just war theory not only immoral and same for self defense. Who going to let their family be killed if they have a option to end it? How is it loving to let that happen to your family? Or let a army like the Nazi's invade your homeland knowing what they do to Christians?

You say that is loving but I do not have enough faith to believe that. Good discussion though.

 

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I see pacifism under the just war theory not only immoral and same for self defense. .

We shall see on the day of judgement what the LORD declares Moral and Immoral.. Who believed Jesus and who did not..