Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

[Whispered]

I know you don't care to discuss it (that's fine), I just wanna say, when it comes to "Matthew 24" (that portion of the Olivet Discourse), I disagree with your saying that it covers "both aspects" (again, I believe Matt24/Mk13 are describing the "far-future" events... and that one teacher I mentioned also views it this way, among many others), and here's somewhat of WHY I believe that (this I posted elsewhere earlier today, with slight modification for this post)...

The reasons:


The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:

Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its [own set of] "SEE-then-FLEE";

whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".


The "BoBPs" ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11);

but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames...


(one "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad [vv.12-24a]; the other "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events occurring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period which time period will START with 2Th2:8a/9a [its BEGINNING ('man of sin be revealed')], continue to unfold until 2Th2:4 [its MIDDLE], and then further onto its 2Th2:8b conclusion [its END]; just like Dan9:27[26] shows BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END; and just like the "Beg-Mid-End" shown in Rev6:2/Rev13:5/Rev19:19,21[<--this 19:19,21 point-in-time, being parallel with Isa24:21-22(23)'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words (@ His 2nd Coming to the earth), followed by a "time-period" when thereafter the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words will be carried out (GWTj), showing the MK following the first of these two]; The MATT/MK parts of the Olivet Discourse are both "far-future," and describe "the BoBPs" [aka the "SEALS" of Rev6] and that which FOLLOWS them [the rest of the 7-yr period leading UP TO His 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the EARTHLY MK]).

The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [to end of trib, Rev11:2]); whereas the Matthew 24 passage shows its "end" to be their being gathered together ['one BY one'] by angels He shall SEND to do so, to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM (comp. Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13 [@ "the GREAT trumpet" (not at our Rapture)]).

Verse 32 of Lk21, where it says, "TILL ALL be fulfilled," necessarily INCLUDES that which v.24 had just said, which was, "and [they] shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled." ['the TIMES of the Gentiles' referring to that which started in 606/605bc, involves Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold," and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (not "the Church age"; and is DISTINCT from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"]).



Any viewpoint that disregards timing-clues (-wordings) [Amill-teachings and Preterism do this, big time! ] is missing the sense, and coming to entirely different conclusions from what was being conveyed.


NOTHING in Matt/Mk's portion of the Olivet Discourse is covering the subject of "the Church which is His body" or our "Rapture"; but covering the subject of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture, and speaks to the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and the specific, limited, future time period that leads UP TO that (7-yrs' worth; i.e. the tribulation period, or "70th Week"). Lk covers both the 70ad events, and the far-future events (which are future to our Rapture, as I said).

Perhaps we are all encountering that teacher to whom you refer.

 

[Whispered]

It's Amillennials that are the replacement theologists.

1. Church Replacement Theology — the idea of the Gentile church taking priority over the Jews — began by the mid-to-late 2nd century, brought about as the result of increasing anti-Semitism and Gentile pride, as the church became increasingly dominated by Gentile believers (who forgot what Paul said about pride, in Romans 11) and the apostate Jews became increasingly hostile and continued to persecute the Christians.
For additional reference, see Barry Horner’s Future Israel, chapter 2, “The Patristic Period,” p. 39

2. Amillennialism was invented by Augustine in the early 5th century. Augustine first believed the standard view of the time, premillennialism, but he was also influenced by Greek platonic thought — the same thinking that produced gnosticism, the basic idea that physical and material is evil, and spiritual, non-physical is good. Augustine was also morally repulsed by the behavior of some Christians, in a group called the Donatists, who took a rather carnal approach to the idea of the kingdom and enjoyed their love feasts (food, drink, revelry). This was also shortly after Constantine, and the church enjoyed the power, privilege and protection of the Roman Empire. Anti-Semitism was also quite strong, the Jews hated throughout the Roman world, and by that time they were scattered and clearly without power — so the biblical message that the despised and weak Jews would one day be given prominence and the other nations would come to them, appeared totally contrary (and unacceptable) to their observed world reality. So Augustine formulated the idea of the spiritual-only kingdom, relating it to the Church triumphant, the Roman church of his day. His new idea, amillennialism (which he described in “The City of God”), along with most everything else that Augustine taught, was incorporated into the Roman Catholic Church — and became (and still is) standard Catholic teaching.
Additional resources:
“The Allegorists Who Undermined the Normal Interpretation of Scripture,” by Mal Couch

Sourced From
Covenant Theology, Amillennialism and Replacement Theology: A Brief History

 

[kaylagrl]

I don't see the fact that the nation of Israel is currently occupying a portion of the Promised Land (Palestine) to be significant, in terms of verifying the claims of dispensationalism.

Maybe if I keep pointing it out you'll get it...

 

[Nehemiah6]

His descendants include his spiritual descendants as well, not just his physical descendants.

I already covered this. The Abrahamic Covenant includes BOTH the Church and Israel, but no one is authorized to mix up the two entities, since the land between the Nile and the Euphrates is given to the twelve tribes of Israel specifically. Had you taken the time to study this properly here is what you would have discovered:

EZEKIEL 48
1 Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, aportion for Manasseh.
5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, aportion for Ephraim.
6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.
7And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.
8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.
9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth.
10 And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof.
11 It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray.
12 And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites.
13 And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the lengthshall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand.
14 And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD.
15 And the five thousand, that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof.
16 And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred, and the south side four thousand and five hundred, and on the east side four thousand and five hundred, and the west side four thousand and five hundred.
17 And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty, and toward the south two hundred and fifty, and toward the east two hundred and fifty, and toward the west two hundred and fifty.
18 And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city.
19 And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel.
20 All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand: ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.
21 And the residue shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof.
22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.
23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad aportion.
28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.
30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have been studying end-time events for the last few years, off and on.

The four major views of end-time events come from:

Amillennialism
Historical Premillennialism
Postmillennialism
Premillennial Dispensationalism

I have ordered them according to the ones I find the most credible.

Anyways, if you engage folks who hold the different theologies, you would likely find that Premillennial Dispensationalists are the most nasty, in terms of insults. In fact, one premillennial dispensationalist on this forum told me I was accursed for my position on this issue. The accusation of this individual is the primary reason why I am starting this thread.

The most common claim is that others believe in "replacement theology". This is a term that I find objectionable, because it implies that others don't think God has any purpose for Jewish individuals.

Well, this isn't true. There is only one people of God, Jews and Gentiles together. God doesn't have a separate plan for Jews, and a separate plan for Gentiles.

Scripture clearly teaches that the Church is one people, Jew and Gentile together. They have been united in Christ:

Greetings UnitedWithChrist,

You are correct in that, the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. However, there is also unbelieving Israel which God is going to deal with during the tribulation period.

When the Lord appears to gather His church, the dead in Christ (both Jew and Gentile), from the on-set of the church right up until the resurrection, the dead will rise first and then the living in Christ will be changed and caught up with them. That takes of care of both Jew and Gentiles who belong to the church.

Now, what about the nation Israel who did not and does not acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah?

Daniel 9:24 states that seventy "sevens," i.e. seventy, seven year periods were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem:

7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = 69 sevens at the end of which the Messiah was cut off/cruified

1 seven = A future seven year period where a seven year covenant will be made with Israel allowing them to build their temple where they will begin to make sacrifices and offerings. In the middle of that seven years the ruler/antichrist will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. This will cause the desolation of Judea which is where Israel will flee out into the wilderness which is mentioned in both Matt.24:15-22 and Rev.12:6, 14. During that last 3 1/2 years God will care for the woman/Israel out in the desert. This is the nation Israel who did not and have not acknowledged Jesus as their Messiah, but will do so sometime during that last 3 1/2 years.

The church = Made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles

The Nation Israel = Does not and has not acknowledged Jesus as their Messiah. With them the last seven years of the seventy sevens will be fulfilled.

In addition, there will also be 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of whom it is written, that they will not have defiled themselves with woman which would make them all males, ergo, the male child and no lie will be found in their mouths. These will be the first fruits to God out of Israel.

There will also be a great number of white robes saints from every people, tribe, nation and language (Gentiles) who are not apart of the church, but will become believers during the time of God's wrath.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Perhaps we are all encountering that teacher to whom you refer.

I don't really know what you're saying, here , but I brought up that teacher [and named him in the post prior] for an EXAMPLE of the viewpoint *I am referring to (which is my viewpoint, not "learned" FROM that teacher, but just that our views are the same ON THAT PARTICULAR POINT) which point I was addressing of "UnitedWithChrist's" post that had been suggesting that Matthew 24 is covering BOTH the 70ad events AND future events [/His 2nd Coming]… so that, *I am pointing out that Matthew 24 is NOT covering "both" (like Luke 21 is), but is only covering the "far-future" aspects (that is, FUTURE to our Rapture), due to the TIMING-CLUES provided within the texts themselves (which proves certain aspects of them to be DISTINCT).



[Just pointing out that not all "dispensational" teachers are putting forth the viewpoint [suggested by UWC in his post I had quoted] that is the viewpoint which very often CAUSES major confusion, in ppl… Make sense? UWC was referring to the faulty viewpoint that HE himself has encountered (re: Matt24)... and I am addressing THAT point]


...that's if I'm understanding your post correctly

 

[garee]

As Paul exhorts, please DON'T be ignorant: Replacement theology is a pernicious, anti Christian doctrine:

Romans 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


This is the beginning, middle, and end for the Replacement Theologists!

That Israel as a outward jew according to the flesh is not born again Israel whose new name is Christians a word with no other meaning added that means what our father intended: residents of the city of Christ prepared as his bride. A perfect name for a bride named after her husband, Christ,

It is a non sense idea. Flesh replacing flesh. (Flesh verses flesh) Did Israel replace Jacob. or does one word represent those who have the power with God and the other powerless still in ones sin as deceivers?

Word have meaning attached to them. not attached to flesh but character .Change the meaning change the authors intent. . . violating the warning not to add other meanings to a word and destroy the integrity of the one author .Christian is the new name God names his bride the church. The non born Israel is part of the fullness of the gentile or pagan . the same blindness they had before the reformation and they lost their usefulness in types and shadows to represent belief (faith) and unbelief (no faith) in mankind.it was never about their flesh , That leave nothing to be replaced

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[Adstar]

Romans 11, as well as Revelation 1:7.

That would be my position on those verses.

This is a prophecy of Jesus’ return.

Zechariah 12
Daniel 7:13
Mark 14:62
Eze 1:4-28
Rev 14:14

He comes with anguish, wrath and judgment.

Ps 97:2
Zeph 1:15

They who pierced Him
Zech 12:10
John 19:34
John 19:37
John 20:25
John 20:27


Those who crucified him will recognize him as Messiah.

Some would claim that their wailing is due to dread of punishment, but my position is that it is one of repentance.

Lets have a look at Revelation 1 verse 7...

Revelation 1: KJV
7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

This does not declare that they shall be repenting... It says they will be wailing.. It says that ALL KINDREDS ( nations) will be wailing.. Does that mean all the world will repent believe in Jesus and be saved once they see Him coming in the clouds???? NOPE... What happens when Jesus returns, coming in the clouds??? It is only the START of HIS GREAT WRATH when He returns.. Those people are wailing because they know His wrath has come and they are going to be subject to His WRATH.. His Vengeance.. His Destruction..

And this verse is NOT about what will happen BEFORE the return of Jesus.. It is about what will happen on the DAY of Jesus return...

 

[Steadfast-Faith]

If it ends in -ism it's a lie from Satan's stupid children from the 1900s AD, don't believe them because they killed enough people and got sent to hell for their lies and they will take you down with them too. Praise Jesus instead. Praise Jesus he is the way, the truth, and the light

 

[calibob]

I was once told that ism stands for I, self and me.

 

[Steadfast-Faith]

I was once told that ism stands for I, self and me.

I have not been told this until now by you, but I like it. Praise Jesus for your wit.

 

[Adstar]

Why don't you search it out for yourself and have the satisfaction of knowing first-hand what has been prophesied?

I have.. The question was a challenge to the person i was posting to to bring forward scripture that supports their belief... They brought forward Revelation 1 vrs 7 and i responded to that verse..

 

[kaylagrl]

If it ends in -ism it's a lie from Satan's stupid children from the 1900s AD, don't believe them because they killed enough people and got sent to hell for their lies and they will take you down with them too. Praise Jesus instead. Praise Jesus he is the way, the truth, and the light

?? Run that by us again?

 

[Whispered]

I don't really know what you're saying, here , but I brought up that teacher [and named him in the post prior] for an EXAMPLE of the viewpoint *I am referring to (which is my viewpoint, not "learned" FROM that teacher, but just that our views are the same ON THAT PARTICULAR POINT) which point I was addressing of "UnitedWithChrist's" post that had been suggesting that Matthew 24 is covering BOTH the 70ad events AND future events [/His 2nd Coming]… so that, *I am pointing out that Matthew 24 is NOT covering "both" (like Luke 21 is), but is only covering the "far-future" aspects (that is, FUTURE to our Rapture), due to the TIMING-CLUES provided within the texts themselves (which proves certain aspects of them to be DISTINCT).



[Just pointing out that not all "dispensational" teachers are putting forth the viewpoint [suggested by UWC in his post I had quoted] that is the viewpoint which very often CAUSES major confusion, in ppl… Make sense? UWC was referring to the faulty viewpoint that HE himself has encountered (re: Matt24)... and I am addressing THAT point]


...that's if I'm understanding your post correctly

I must have missed your naming that teacher. The only reference to such a person by name that I've seen since you started talking about the teacher and his wife was one who named John MacArthur. That wasn't your account. I've looked and I don't see you naming a name. Would you indulge me please and share that name again?

 

[Steadfast-Faith]

?? Run that by us again?

Okay, praise Jesus.

If it ends in -ism it's a lie from Satan's stupid children from the 1900s AD, don't believe them because they killed enough people and got sent to hell for their lies and they will take you down with them too. Praise Jesus instead. Praise Jesus he is the way, the truth, and the light

 

[kaylagrl]

Okay, praise Jesus.

If it ends in -ism it's a lie from Satan's stupid children from the 1900s AD, don't believe them because they killed enough people and got sent to hell for their lies and they will take you down with them too. Praise Jesus instead. Praise Jesus he is the way, the truth, and the light

And who exactly are "Satans stupid children"? What ism are you talking about?

 

[Steadfast-Faith]

And who exactly are "Satans stupid children"? What ism are you talking about?

Satan's stupid children are the ones that obey Satan's lies and fight against the children of God whom tell the truth that praise Jesus.

 

[kaylagrl]

Satan's stupid children are the ones that obey Satan's lies and fight against the children of God whom tell the truth that praise Jesus.

Well, that was clear as mud. But what did I expect?

 

[Whispered]

Okay, praise Jesus.

If it ends in -ism it's a lie from Satan's stupid children from the 1900s AD, don't believe them because they killed enough people and got sent to hell for their lies and they will take you down with them too. Praise Jesus instead. Praise Jesus he is the way, the truth, and the light

Just a small point, no one is yet in Hell.

 

[Mii]

I was once told that ism stands for I, self and me.

Ironically I refer to peculiar things that are unique to an individual as "isms"

Johnny prefers word salads as a sort of joke...that's a Johnny"ism" (of relating to johnny)

Janet like cauliflower with ketchup with a side of canned sardines... I would call this a Janet"ism".

I can't explain my own "isms", I presume others can't explain theirs either