Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Grandpa]

What would your advice be Grandpa, when children have a hard time of it and don't know what to say to their peers? There is a lot of AAs in England (they are called Angry Atheist's) in England as they are sort of shaking their fist at the sky and spitting in the face of anyone who mentions the G word. For instance, a 16 year old who is told " I suppose you think you are perfect do you" or even a teacher that says "so you think you are ABOVE the law do you!". Peter Hitchins wrote a book on these folk. (Brother of Christopher Hitchens) called Rage at God. He was an ex marxist turned Christian and I guess he had a hard time from his brother but is one of those who wasn't too proud and vain to realise the truth. I haven't read it, but it is worrying when he says that Britain has no Christianity left and stuff. What do children do to deal with these questions and hassle?

I would tell the AA's that nobody is perfect. That is the whole reason Christ came for us, and was crucified for us. Because we couldn't be perfect before God by following the law, or generally by our efforts.

Anyone that tells them differently is lying to them and they know it.

All you would have to do is be sincere. Tell how God delivered you. Tell why you were under the law and why you aren't now. Tell how messed up your life was before God and how you were changed.


A teacher that asks me if I am above the law I would have to ask what they mean, what law they are talking about.
And any talk about the law gets tricky. I tend to lean towards legalism with those who are too liberal and I tend to be more liberal with those who lean towards legalism.

Although I don't get accused of legalism too often.


I'm mostly not worried about trying to argue people into Christianity. I will argue my point of view but I don't go out of my way to do so. I tend to use a lot of scripture and it becomes a problem with people who don't believe scripture.

For some reason the scripture "the Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom" comes into my mind a lot when talking to atheists. And also "the fool has said in his heart that there is no God" but I don't think I've said that one out loud yet.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't think you're getting this, grandpa. It's a simple picture.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Who did not come to destroy the law?


Colossians 2:12-14
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Who's the HE that blotted out the ordinances?


Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Who's the HE that changed the law?

----

- Christ did not come to abolish the law (Matthew).

- Christ blotted out the ordinances (colossians).

- Christ changed the law (Hebrews).


You see what scripture says but you keep trying to accuse me of saying it because you can't accuse the Messiah.

Your issue is with Christ, not me.

This is REALLY, REALLY simple.

If some jots and tittles have been removed, then the WHOLE Law HAS TO HAVE BEEN FULFILLED.

IF the WHOLE Law has not been fulfilled then ALL THE JOTS AND TITTLES are still in place.


I don't need to accuse the Messiah of anything. Because I know that He fulfilled the Law. I know that NONE of the jots or tittles apply to me because HE fulfilled ALL of them.


But your philosophy shows that SOME jots and tittles are removed while other jots and tittles remain. This is contradicting what Christ has said. So it is YOU that has the problem with these scriptures because you CAN'T make any sense out of them.


You CANNOT get rid of some of the law while placing yourself under some other parts. The Lord Jesus Christ forbids you doing that by His Words in Matthew 5.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, are ordinances jots and tittles of the Torah? Is the priesthood jots and tittles of the Torah? Are the mitzva jots and tittles of the Torah?

Yes, of course they are. So what does that tell you about the 10 commandments?

It should tell you that you can't be under them if you aren't under ordinances or priesthoods or sacrifices.

But if you have placed yourself under the 10 commandments then you HAVE placed yourself under the ordinances and the priesthoods and the sacrifices.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Are you starting to get it now, or no?

 

[wokinluv]

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—Romans 15:18

 

[Grandpa]

Maybe you can show me a scripture to prove your point that;

"The whole world is under the law until they come to Christ."

Or deny the ff: truths;

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:11-12

the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5

Here's what you should consider.

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:13-22

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:3-7

John 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If the whole world is not under the law then the whole world can't be under condemnation. There would be nothing to condemn them by.


Galatians 3:22-25
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The scripture has concluded all under sin.

How. If all are not under law then how were all under sin?

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Is that the part you were struggling with?

Or was it with the NOT being under law after coming to Christ?

 

[wokinluv]

It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” Luke 22:37

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Luke 24:44

Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God.’” Hebrews 10:7

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13

 

[Grandpa]

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—Romans 15:18

There is a comma at the end of that scripture that you keep leaving out.

Why is that?

Romans 15:18-19
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


Ohhhh, that's why.

 

[wokinluv]

John 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If the whole world is not under the law then the whole world can't be under condemnation. There would be nothing to condemn them by.


Galatians 3:22-25
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The scripture has concluded all under sin.

How. If all are not under law then how were all under sin?

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Is that the part you were struggling with?

Or was it with the NOT being under law after coming to Christ?

It's good to hear this coming from you.

Do you now acknowledge that there is a law that was given from the beginning which sums up the laws given to the Israelites exclusively and which surpasses knowledge?

Will you uphold that law and teach others to obey them?

 

[Grandpa]

It's good to hear this coming from you.

Do you now acknowledge that there is a law that was given from the beginning which sums up the laws given to the Israelites exclusively and which surpasses knowledge?

No.

The law that the whole world is under is the 10 commandments. The law that we are delivered from in Christ is the 10 commandments.

Will you uphold that law and teach others to obey them?

What do you think I have been doing?

Let's take a look at Romans 9 again....

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Is it more important to work at the law or to attain Righteousness? I think Righteousness is more important.

But it appears there are a lot of people who don't agree with me.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Was the thief on the cross saved by works?
Can you give a true response without going Into left field?

 

[DeighAnn]

ALL OF THE JOTS AND TITTLES ARE STILL WHERE THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN. NO ONE CAN CHANGE A SINGLE ONE, JESUS DID NOT CHANGE A SINGLE ONE, THEY ARE PART OF WHAT MAKE UP OUR " PERFECT HISTORY", THEY ARE WHAT EXPLAIN THE HOLINESS OF GOD TO US. IF WE REMOVE ANY, WE REMOVE HISTORY. WE ARE TOLD NOT TO TOUCH A JOT OR TITTLE.

 

[posthuman]

Oh my goodness, of course, I sometimes forget you guys must have heard all this loads of times. Sorry about that. No I think we agree! And we all got baggage friend don't worry about it. Mine needs replacing actually but no holidays planned soon!

i know a certain 'Taxi Cab Guy' with a trunk so deep, that can handle all our baggage

https://screaminggiant.bandcamp.com/track/taxi-cab-guy

 

[DeighAnn]

"THE LAW IS ONE LAW" and IT MAY very well HAVE BEEN, BUT THAT WAS only UNDER THE OLD COVENANT and it is not "One Law" and hasn't been a binding one law for a very long time. The reason is because the "COVENANT" that contained that "one" law, no longer is. Jesus explains it this as a wife whos first husband has died and has married another.

THERE WAS A COVENANT, THAT CONTAINED IT ALL. THAT COVENANT IS GONE SO THE "RULES" OF the "ONE LAW ARE GONE" also. Don't let someone try and put you "under a law or in bondage to a law or yoked to a law" the our Saviour has ended by putting His law in place of it.
Hebrews 8:13 In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made the first wherein was the candlestick and the table and the shewbread which is called the sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all

Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold wherein was the golden pot that had manna and Aaron's rod that budded and the tables of the covenant

Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained the priests went always into the first tabernacle accomplishing the service of God.

Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year not without blood which he offered for himself and for the errors of the people

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest while as the first tabernacle was yet standing

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks and divers washings and carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an High priest of good things to come by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands that is to say, not of this building

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place having obtained eternal redemption for us

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament that by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance


IS EVERYONE AWARE that the day our LORD AND SAVIOUR was crucified, was also the ONE DAY A YEAR, that the High priest went into the Holy of Holies, and at the exact moment the priest was going through that 2nd veil, IT was the EXACT moment that JESUS RENT IT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM? Go and study that High Holy Day.
I have heard people say that they don't know what day exactly the Passover Lamb was crucified, they don't know when our Saviour, defeated death and passed from death unto life. All I can think of is "oh ye of little faith" Like God didn't have everything happen at the exact perfect time in Egypt, to convince the Naysayers of a later generation that He is, "I am". That all the prophecies would be perfectly fulfilled. Like the timing could have been off "a bit". Get real.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands which are the figures of the true but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that He should offer Himself often as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others

Hebrews 9:26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment (NO JUDGEMENT TILL AFTER DEATH)

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So the priests, ONCE A YEAR, would take the blood of the animals sacrificed to go into the Holy of Holies.
What Christ accomplished was to Become that High Priest, His blood only needed to be shed ONCE to cover the sins of the world.
So with Christ becoming the Lamb of God what laws of the law of Moses did Jesus fulfill and nail to the cross?

(for those jumping up and down in your seats screaming "it is one law" try to tell yourself or remind your self that, THAT COVENANT IS GONE, gone, bye bye, decayed and waxed old, only a shadow of " THIS" "this THAT HAS COME", so no more "THE LAW IS NOT DIVIDED" BEcause the law that "was one law not divided", is no more, so NOW, it can now be shaken up and stirred, chopped up and changed, tossed up, intensified, brought back or whatever, so sit back down and listen, just kidding, we all know that is impossible)

1. We now have a High Priest whos blood washes us clean. What does that do to " all the laws{" in "the law of Moses" that had to do with temple duties? they just go away from "something ocne done" to something studied

2. There are NO MORE BLOOD OFFERINGS as no blood ever produced could compare with the blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. so circumcision of the flesh (blood) becomes of the heart (spiritual) No animals are ever to be sacrificed again so all the laws and ordinances and rituals that went along with that are no longer to be done, we are no longer bound by them EXCEPT in the study of them and how they lead us to God.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way nailing it to his cross (did anyone see what happen to the parts that weren't ordinances or contrary to us? NO? should we speculate here? no)
Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly triumphing over them in it.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ (What??? did that say???)

3. Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day."
Was the Sabbath what was once a law for the flesh man, now become a voluntary worship and service of the loving spirit that dwells within us? Do we love the Lord so much that our "work" can not even be considered "labor" but just an unquenchable act or deed of love for the Glory of God?

 

[DeighAnn]

I don't need to accuse the Messiah of anything. Because I know that He fulfilled the Law. I know that NONE of the jots or tittles apply to me because HE fulfilled ALL of them.

First off, if it is not you saying "one law" and Jesus fulfilled it all, I apologize right now for the mistake.

If it is you, could you please start out with some of these, because I must be perfectly honest with you, I just have never. Please, if you could just give a quick explanation of how our Lord and Saviour fulfilled these laws (I already understand how He did the ceremonial and sacrificial ones), but it is the '"ALL OR NOTHING" I keep hearing that I don't get.

1. To be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:28) (CCA43).
2. That a eunuch shall not marry a daughter of Israel (Deut. 23:2) (CCN136).
3. That a mamzer shall not marry the daughter of a Jew (Deut. 23:3) (CCN137). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
4. That an Ammonite or Moabite shall never marry the daughter of an Israelite (Deut. 23:4) (negative).
5. Not to exclude a descendant of Esau from the community of Israel for three generations (Deut. 23:8-9) (negative).
6. Not to exclude an Egyptian from the community of Israel for three generations (Deut. 23:8-9) (negative).
7. That there shall be no harlot (in Israel); that is, that there shall be no intercourse with a woman, without previous marriage with a deed of marriage and formal declaration of marriage (Deut. 23:18) (CCN133). See Marriage.
8. To take a wife by kiddushin, the sacrament of marriage (Deut. 24:1) (CCA44). See The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin.
9. That the newly married husband shall (be free) for one year to rejoice with his wife (Deut. 24:5) (affirmative).
10. That a bridegroom shall be exempt for a whole year from taking part in any public labor, such as military service, guarding the wall and similar duties (Deut. 24:5) (negative).
11. Not to withhold food, clothing or conjugal rights from a wife (Ex. 21:10) (CCN42). See The Marital Relationship.
12. That the woman suspected of adultery shall be dealt with as prescribed in the Torah (Num. 5:30) (affirmative).
13. That one who defames his wife's honor (by falsely accusing her of unchastity before marriage) must live with her all his lifetime (Deut. 22:19) (affirmative).
14. That a man may not divorce his wife concerning whom he has published an evil report (about her unchastity before marriage) (Deut. 22:19) (negative).
15. To divorce by a formal written document (Deut. 24:1) (affirmative). See The Process of Obtaining a Divorce.
16. That one who divorced his wife shall not remarry her, if after the divorce she had been married to another man (Deut. 24:4) (CCN134). See Divorce.
17. That a widow whose husband died childless must not be married to anyone but her deceased husband's brother (Deut. 25:5) (CCN135) (this is only in effect insofar as it requires the procedure of release below).
18. To marry the widow of a brother who has died childless (Deut. 25:5) (this is only in effect insofar as it requires the procedure of release below ) (CCA45).
19. That the widow formally release the brother-in-law (if he refuses to marry her) (Deut. 25:7-9) (CCA46).

Times and Seasons

1. That the new month shall be solemnly proclaimed as holy, and the months and years shall be calculated by the Supreme Court only (Ex. 12:2) (affirmative) (the authority to declare months is inferred from the use of the word "unto you").
2. Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.
3. To sanctify Shabbat (Ex. 20:8) (CCA19). See Shabbat.
4. Not to do work on Shabbat (Ex. 20:10) (CCN6). See Shabbat.
5. To rest on Shabbat (Ex. 23:12; 34:21) (CCA20). See Shabbat.
6. To celebrate the festivals [Passover, Shavu'ot and Sukkot] (Ex. 23:14) (affirmative).
7. To rejoice on the festivals (Deut. 16:14) (CCA21).
8. To appear in the Sanctuary on the festivals (Deut. 16:16) (affirmative).
9. To remove chametz on the Eve of Passover (Ex. 12:15) (CCA22). See Passover.
10. To rest on the first day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:7) (CCA25). See Passover.
11. Not to do work on the first day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:6-7) (CCN147). See Passover.
12. To rest on the seventh day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:8) (CCA27). See Passover.
13. Not to do work on the seventh day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:8) (CCN148). See Passover.
14. To eat matzah on the first night of Passover (Ex. 12:18) (CCA23). See Passover.
15. That no chametz be in the Israelite's possession during Passover (Ex. 12:19) (CCN3). See Passover.
16. Not to eat any food containing chametz on Passover (Ex. 12:20) (CCN5). See Passover.
17. Not to eat chametz on Passover (Ex. 13:3) (CCN4). See Passover.
18. That chametz shall not be seen in an Israelite's home during Passover (Ex. 13:7) (CCN2). See Passover.
19. To discuss the departure from Egypt on the first night of Passover (Ex. 13:8) (CCA24). See The Passover Seder.

Dietary Laws

1. To examine the marks in cattle (so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean) (Lev. 11:2) (affirmative). See Animals that may not be eaten.
2. Not to eat the flesh of unclean beasts (Lev. 11:4) (CCN93). See Animals that may not be eaten.
3. To examine the marks in fishes (so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Lev. 11:9) (affirmative). See Animals that may not be eaten.
4. Not to eat unclean fish (Lev. 11:11) (CCN95). See Animals that may not be eaten.
5. To examine the marks in fowl, so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Deut. 14:11) (affirmative). See Animals that may not be eaten.
6. Not to eat unclean fowl (Lev. 11:13) (CCN94). See Animals that may not be eaten.
   
   
   
7. Business Practices
   
   1. Not to do wrong in buying or selling (Lev. 25:14) (CCN47).
   2. Not to make a loan to an Israelite on interest (Lev. 25:37) (CCN54).
   3. Not to borrow on interest (Deut. 23:20) (because this would cause the lender to sin) (CCN55).
   4. Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24) (CCN53).
   5. To lend to a poor person (Ex. 22:24) (even though the passage says "if you lend" it is understood as obligatory) (CCA62).
   6. Not to demand from a poor man repayment of his debt, when the creditor knows that he cannot pay, nor press him (Ex. 22:24) (CCN52).
   7. Not to take in pledge utensils used in preparing food (Deut. 24:6) (CCN58).
   8. Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10) (CCN59).
   9. Not to keep the pledge from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12) (CCN61).
      
      
      
   10. Vows, Oaths and Swearing
       
       1. That a man should fulfill whatever he has uttered (Deut. 23:24) (CCA39).
       2. Not to swear needlessly (Ex. 20:7) (CCN29).
       3. Not to violate an oath or swear falsely (Lev. 19:12) (CCN31).
       4. To decide in cases of annulment of vows, according to the rules set forth in the Torah (Num. 30:2-17) (CCA40).
       5. Not to break a vow (Num. 30:3) (CCN184).
       6. To swear by His name truly (Deut. 10:20) (affirmative).
       7. Not to delay in fulfilling vows or bringing vowed or free-will offerings (Deut. 23:22) (CCN185).
   11. The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years
       
       1. To let the land lie fallow in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11; Lev. 25:2) (affirmative) (CCI20).
       2. To cease from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) (affirmative) (Lev. 25:2) (CCI21).
       3. Not to till the ground in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI22).
       4. Not to do any work on the trees in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI23).
       5. Not to reap the aftermath that grows in the Sabbatical year, in the same way as it is reaped in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI24).
       6. Not to gather the fruit of the tree in the Sabbatical year in the same way as it is gathered in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI25).
          
          They seem so "divided" though don't they?

 

[PS]

I don't think you're getting this, grandpa. It's a simple picture.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Who did not come to destroy the law?


Colossians 2:12-14
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Who's the HE that blotted out the ordinances?


Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Who's the HE that changed the law?

----

- Christ did not come to abolish the law (Matthew).

- Christ blotted out the ordinances (colossians).

- Christ changed the law (Hebrews).


You see what scripture says but you keep trying to accuse me of saying it because you can't accuse the Messiah.

Your issue is with Christ, not me.

Your last sentence in which you tell Grandpa he has an issue with Christ really upsets me. The law operates as we all know by condemning wrong doers, which we all are. Further, the law stands for all time, with the result that we are all on death row, except that some people have been released from the law, pardoned, and set free. Christ went one step further and died in our place. He suffered the death penalty in our room and stead so that those who turn to Him in faith believing are redeemed from the penalty of the law and are set free. Others remain under the law, and under condemnation. You know who these are who live under the law, and you know who the redeemed are, but still you choose to live under law.

 

[PS]

First off, if it is not you saying "one law" and Jesus fulfilled it all, I apologize right now for the mistake.

If it is you, could you please start out with some of these, because I must be perfectly honest with you, I just have never. Please, if you could just give a quick explanation of how our Lord and Saviour fulfilled these laws (I already understand how He did the ceremonial and sacrificial ones), but it is the '"ALL OR NOTHING" I keep hearing that I don't get.

1. To be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:28) (CCA43).
2. That a eunuch shall not marry a daughter of Israel (Deut. 23:2) (CCN136).
3. That a mamzer shall not marry the daughter of a Jew (Deut. 23:3) (CCN137). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
4. That an Ammonite or Moabite shall never marry the daughter of an Israelite (Deut. 23:4) (negative).
5. Not to exclude a descendant of Esau from the community of Israel for three generations (Deut. 23:8-9) (negative).
6. Not to exclude an Egyptian from the community of Israel for three generations (Deut. 23:8-9) (negative).
7. That there shall be no harlot (in Israel); that is, that there shall be no intercourse with a woman, without previous marriage with a deed of marriage and formal declaration of marriage (Deut. 23:18) (CCN133). See Marriage.
8. To take a wife by kiddushin, the sacrament of marriage (Deut. 24:1) (CCA44). See The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin.
9. That the newly married husband shall (be free) for one year to rejoice with his wife (Deut. 24:5) (affirmative).
10. That a bridegroom shall be exempt for a whole year from taking part in any public labor, such as military service, guarding the wall and similar duties (Deut. 24:5) (negative).
11. Not to withhold food, clothing or conjugal rights from a wife (Ex. 21:10) (CCN42). See The Marital Relationship.
12. That the woman suspected of adultery shall be dealt with as prescribed in the Torah (Num. 5:30) (affirmative).
13. That one who defames his wife's honor (by falsely accusing her of unchastity before marriage) must live with her all his lifetime (Deut. 22:19) (affirmative).
14. That a man may not divorce his wife concerning whom he has published an evil report (about her unchastity before marriage) (Deut. 22:19) (negative).
15. To divorce by a formal written document (Deut. 24:1) (affirmative). See The Process of Obtaining a Divorce.
16. That one who divorced his wife shall not remarry her, if after the divorce she had been married to another man (Deut. 24:4) (CCN134). See Divorce.
17. That a widow whose husband died childless must not be married to anyone but her deceased husband's brother (Deut. 25:5) (CCN135) (this is only in effect insofar as it requires the procedure of release below).
18. To marry the widow of a brother who has died childless (Deut. 25:5) (this is only in effect insofar as it requires the procedure of release below ) (CCA45).
19. That the widow formally release the brother-in-law (if he refuses to marry her) (Deut. 25:7-9) (CCA46).

Times and Seasons

1. That the new month shall be solemnly proclaimed as holy, and the months and years shall be calculated by the Supreme Court only (Ex. 12:2) (affirmative) (the authority to declare months is inferred from the use of the word "unto you").
2. Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.
3. To sanctify Shabbat (Ex. 20:8) (CCA19). See Shabbat.
4. Not to do work on Shabbat (Ex. 20:10) (CCN6). See Shabbat.
5. To rest on Shabbat (Ex. 23:12; 34:21) (CCA20). See Shabbat.
6. To celebrate the festivals [Passover, Shavu'ot and Sukkot] (Ex. 23:14) (affirmative).
7. To rejoice on the festivals (Deut. 16:14) (CCA21).
8. To appear in the Sanctuary on the festivals (Deut. 16:16) (affirmative).
9. To remove chametz on the Eve of Passover (Ex. 12:15) (CCA22). See Passover.
10. To rest on the first day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:7) (CCA25). See Passover.
11. Not to do work on the first day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:6-7) (CCN147). See Passover.
12. To rest on the seventh day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:8) (CCA27). See Passover.
13. Not to do work on the seventh day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:8) (CCN148). See Passover.
14. To eat matzah on the first night of Passover (Ex. 12:18) (CCA23). See Passover.
15. That no chametz be in the Israelite's possession during Passover (Ex. 12:19) (CCN3). See Passover.
16. Not to eat any food containing chametz on Passover (Ex. 12:20) (CCN5). See Passover.
17. Not to eat chametz on Passover (Ex. 13:3) (CCN4). See Passover.
18. That chametz shall not be seen in an Israelite's home during Passover (Ex. 13:7) (CCN2). See Passover.
19. To discuss the departure from Egypt on the first night of Passover (Ex. 13:8) (CCA24). See The Passover Seder.

Dietary Laws

1. To examine the marks in cattle (so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean) (Lev. 11:2) (affirmative). See Animals that may not be eaten.
2. Not to eat the flesh of unclean beasts (Lev. 11:4) (CCN93). See Animals that may not be eaten.
3. To examine the marks in fishes (so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Lev. 11:9) (affirmative). See Animals that may not be eaten.
4. Not to eat unclean fish (Lev. 11:11) (CCN95). See Animals that may not be eaten.
5. To examine the marks in fowl, so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Deut. 14:11) (affirmative). See Animals that may not be eaten.
6. Not to eat unclean fowl (Lev. 11:13) (CCN94). See Animals that may not be eaten.
   
   
   
7. Business Practices
   1. Not to do wrong in buying or selling (Lev. 25:14) (CCN47).
   2. Not to make a loan to an Israelite on interest (Lev. 25:37) (CCN54).
   3. Not to borrow on interest (Deut. 23:20) (because this would cause the lender to sin) (CCN55).
   4. Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24) (CCN53).
   5. To lend to a poor person (Ex. 22:24) (even though the passage says "if you lend" it is understood as obligatory) (CCA62).
   6. Not to demand from a poor man repayment of his debt, when the creditor knows that he cannot pay, nor press him (Ex. 22:24) (CCN52).
   7. Not to take in pledge utensils used in preparing food (Deut. 24:6) (CCN58).
   8. Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10) (CCN59).
   9. Not to keep the pledge from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12) (CCN61).
      
      
      
   10. Vows, Oaths and Swearing
       1. That a man should fulfill whatever he has uttered (Deut. 23:24) (CCA39).
       2. Not to swear needlessly (Ex. 20:7) (CCN29).
       3. Not to violate an oath or swear falsely (Lev. 19:12) (CCN31).
       4. To decide in cases of annulment of vows, according to the rules set forth in the Torah (Num. 30:2-17) (CCA40).
       5. Not to break a vow (Num. 30:3) (CCN184).
       6. To swear by His name truly (Deut. 10:20) (affirmative).
       7. Not to delay in fulfilling vows or bringing vowed or free-will offerings (Deut. 23:22) (CCN185).
   11. The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years
       1. To let the land lie fallow in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11; Lev. 25:2) (affirmative) (CCI20).
       2. To cease from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) (affirmative) (Lev. 25:2) (CCI21).
       3. Not to till the ground in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI22).
       4. Not to do any work on the trees in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI23).
       5. Not to reap the aftermath that grows in the Sabbatical year, in the same way as it is reaped in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI24).
       6. Not to gather the fruit of the tree in the Sabbatical year in the same way as it is gathered in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI25).
          
          They seem so "divided" though don't they?

How do those laws apply to me?

 

[DeighAnn]

How do those laws apply to me?

Yes, I was trying to find out (from Grandpas post, I think)
how they apply to Jesus? How did He fulfill them all? And, if they "can't" be divided, am I am understanding correctly, they are "one law", ipso facto, all fulfilled or none, right>?>, is that correct? Anyways, thanks if you have any information on any of this.

 

[PS]

Yes, I was trying to find out (from Grandpas post, I think)
how they apply to Jesus? How did He fulfill them all? And, if they "can't" be divided, am I am understanding correctly, they are "one law", ipso facto, all fulfilled or none, right>?>, is that correct? Anyways, thanks if you have any information on any of this.

Two things. The Jews live under Jewish law. Myself, I live under English law.
Second, the laws of whatever nation, are about how we conduct ourselves in this life. They are for our physical well-being and not our eternal spiritual well-being. For that we need to turn to Jesus.

Jewish law is applicable to Jews while they live, but for the rest of the world it has no relevance at all, and never has had for other nations. It is ended, finished, and defunct. I suggest you turn your thoughts heavenward to Jesus and away from things of the earth.

 

[wokinluv]

No.

The law that the whole world is under is the 10 commandments. The law that we are delivered from in Christ is the 10 commandments.


What do you think I have been doing?

Let's take a look at Romans 9 again....

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Is it more important to work at the law or to attain Righteousness? I think Righteousness is more important.

But it appears there are a lot of people who don't agree with me.

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

What did the one Lawgiver and Judge give us? It must be the law, right? To judge us according to what we have done, whether we obey (the law/s he gave) Him or not.

Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 1 John 2:7

This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 1 John 3:11,

The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10

... “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8

For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Hebrews 4:2

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. Revelation 3:9-10

Is it more important to work at the law or to attain Righteousness? I think Righteousness is more important

Paul who said that he will not venture to speak other than what Christ accomplished through Him in leading the Gentiles to obey God also said that what counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Romans 15:18, Galatians 5:6)

Why would you separate faith from the works of love which is walking in obedience to His commands? (2John 1:6)

Faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

Christ gave us examples that we should follow in His steps. While on this earth, He lived in obedience to God's commandments, He walked in Love. Let us therefore walk as Jesus did. (1Peter 2:21, Hebrews 5:7-9, 1John 2:3-6)

Here's what Jesus said to the church in Sardis whom I believe are believers or have faith but what did He tell them?

...I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:2-3

Confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His LOVE endures forever. Amen

 

[DeighAnn]

Jewish law is applicable to Jews while they live, but for the rest of the world it has no relevance at all, and never has had for other nations. It is ended, finished, and defunct. I suggest you turn your thoughts heavenward to Jesus and away from things of the earth.

I was like you once a long, long time ago. Just so loving the Lord and the spirit in my life and all the blessings pouring forth and sharing the word with my friends and loved ones just consumed till that one day, God just took and set straight all the information His word has blessed me with and just arranged it all so flawlessly, I have not found any discrepancies since, and needless to say, I have been hooked ever since. I work on bringing it back to earth actually. I pray one day it happens to you. Anyway, it wasn't but a bit time later I started a study right here in Eph, and I have been captured ever since. (You know the more I love Jesus, the more I love to study the Word. The more I love the kingdom of God, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, the more I read and study, then, come here for a little dessert).
But, I will say, if we were under the law (of Moses) too, it wouldn't matter to me one bit. I love the Lord God, with all my heart. I have complete faith and thankfulness in the forgiveness the Lord Jesus has provided me and no matter how I get to heaven, there will never be any fear of His judgment. His yoke is super light to me. No one can put me in bondage or make me feel bad or sad, or insecure, or fearful for my beliefs because when I get in front of God, I will have an opinion on "all" of His word. Not out of "duty" or service, or because I had to, no, I want to, I love it now, I will love it then.
Now, I am gearing up. When I am told to put on the "WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD", that is the advice I am taking. My shield of faith, my helmet of salvation, all of it, I am learning it all, not an ounce of "have to" involved.
Don't get me wrong, I understand completely why only the heavenward thoughts are a way for awhile but you will see, the Word never stops growing. The love and knowledge never quit. It only stops if you do nothing with it. I would rather die right now then to have that happen.

Ephesians 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening knowing that your Master also is in heaven neither is there respect of persons with him.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Ephesians 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Ephesians 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

Ephesians 6:22 Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts.

Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

 

[PS]

I was like you once a long, long time ago. Just so loving the Lord and the spirit in my life and all the blessings pouring forth and sharing the word with my friends and loved ones just consumed till that one day, God just took and set straight all the information His word has blessed me with and just arranged it all so flawlessly, I have not found any discrepancies since, and needless to say, I have been hooked ever since. I work on bringing it back to earth actually. I pray one day it happens to you. Anyway, it wasn't but a bit time later I started a study right here in Eph, and I have been captured ever since. (You know the more I love Jesus, the more I love to study the Word. The more I love the kingdom of God, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, the more I read and study, then, come here for a little dessert).
But, I will say, if we were under the law (of Moses) too, it wouldn't matter to me one bit. I love the Lord God, with all my heart. I have complete faith and thankfulness in the forgiveness the Lord Jesus has provided me and no matter how I get to heaven, there will never be any fear of His judgment. His yoke is super light to me. No one can put me in bondage or make me feel bad or sad, or insecure, or fearful for my beliefs because when I get in front of God, I will have an opinion on "all" of His word. Not out of "duty" or service, or because I had to, no, I want to, I love it now, I will love it then.
Now, I am gearing up. When I am told to put on the "WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD", that is the advice I am taking. My shield of faith, my helmet of salvation, all of it, I am learning it all, not an ounce of "have to" involved.
Don't get me wrong, I understand completely why only the heavenward thoughts are a way for awhile but you will see, the Word never stops growing. The love and knowledge never quit. It only stops if you do nothing with it. I would rather die right now then to have that happen.

Ephesians 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening knowing that your Master also is in heaven neither is there respect of persons with him.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Ephesians 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Ephesians 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

Ephesians 6:22 Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts.

Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

Ephesians 6 is about putting on the whole armour of God against the wiles of the devil who would have us working for our salvation instead of resting in the saving arms of Jesus. I shall pray for your soul.