THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb

[Absolutely]

It's the same word used in Revelation 2:8 -

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/2-8.htm - G2198 - ezēsen (Rev2:8)

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-4.htm - G2198 - ezēsan (Rev20:4)


Besides that, the word "souls" is used in several other places in scripture, to mean "persons [that is, who are alive and have bodies]"... for example, Acts 7:14, Acts 27:37, and 1 Peter 3:20 (none of these are referring to body-less "souls" floating around. )


So yes, Rev20:4b is speaking of those trib saints who DIED in the trib, now alive ("resurrected") to reign with Him for 1000 years (and this "resurrection" [not "RAPTURE"] for them takes place AFTER/AT END of trib).

Yes.
Agreed they were martyred during the gt.
We see them in rev 7 or so as the innumerable number.
John is being told WHO THEY ARE.
NOT WHEN THEY GOT THERE.
You read that in.
It says zero about a post trib pre mil resurrection.
Nor does it fit.
They are ALREADY ESTABLISHED as sitting on thrones in rev 20.

But beyond that,you are concluding that the first resurrection is ONLY those martyrs and that erroneous "first resurrection" is AFTER the gt.

We know for a fact that is false.
The first resurrection is framed in first fruits and then main harvest. Followed by corners and gleaners.
4 parts to harvest.
4 gatherings.

You can not have firstfruits without a following main,corners,and gleaners.
(Or 3 part if corners and gleaners are combined.
Further,there are 3 harvests
Barley
Wheat
Grapes.

Interesting the harvest in rev 14 is ripe fruit....Grapes.

It is ALL during the gt.
Nothing afterwards

 

[Noose]

Absolutely NO ONE?!

I'm not saying the following verse refers to a "RAPTURE / harpazo / harpagēsometha [G726]" (it doesn't), but these two ARE SHOWN to be "leaving the earth" (or do you not believe they are two persons / "two prophets" [v.10] ? ):

Revelation 11 -

11 And after the three and a half days, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them. 12 And they heard a great voice out of heaven, saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell, and seven thousand names of men were killed in the earthquake. And the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe has passed [and associated with the "6th Trumpet" events]. Behold, the third woe [associated with the "7th Trumpet"] is coming quickly [i.e. the NEXT thing, upcoming, in the chronology].

NO.

The whole doctrine of rapture comes from a misunderstanding of the scriptural phrase "caught up in the air". If these words were not used then doctrine would not have been...

Caught up doesn't mean flying off.
Many OT prophets prophesied about resurrection but not the rapture - how comes?

 

[Absolutely]

It's the same word used in Revelation 2:8 -

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/2-8.htm - G2198 - ezēsen (Rev2:8)

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-4.htm - G2198 - ezēsan (Rev20:4)


Besides that, the word "souls" is used in several other places in scripture, to mean "persons [that is, who are alive and have bodies]"... for example, Acts 7:14, Acts 27:37, and 1 Peter 3:20 (none of these are referring to body-less "souls" floating around. )


So yes, Rev20:4b is speaking of those trib saints who DIED in the trib, now alive ("resurrected") to reign with Him for 1000 years (and this "resurrection" [not "RAPTURE"] for them takes place AFTER/AT END of trib).

""So yes, Rev20:4b is speaking of those trib saints who DIED in the trib, now alive ("resurrected") to reign with Him for 1000 years (and this "resurrection" [not "RAPTURE"] for them takes place AFTER/AT END of trib)""
Says nothing of a post trib resurrection.
Zero
It says they lived and reigned.
Jesus and those of the rapture also "lived and reigned" after the gt.
Should we also ascribe an erroneous post trib resurrection to those also?

 

[Absolutely]

NO.

The whole doctrine of rapture comes from a misunderstanding of the scriptural phrase "caught up in the air". If these words were not used then doctrine would not have been...

Caught up doesn't mean flying off.
Many OT prophets prophesied about resurrection but not the rapture - how comes?

...and yet Jesus,john,paul,the 2 witnesses,the ones taken in mat 24,and those in 1 thes 4 do exactly what you say they don't.

 

[Melach]

NO.

The whole doctrine of rapture comes from a misunderstanding of the scriptural phrase "caught up in the air". If these words were not used then doctrine would not have been...

Caught up doesn't mean flying off.
Many OT prophets prophesied about resurrection but not the rapture - how comes?

tell me what caught up in the air means then?

ot prophets phophesied about resurrection yes. not the rapture because rapture is a mystery revealed only to st.paul. its mystery because we didnt know what would happen to those alive when resurrection happens then God revealed it to st.paul and now we know what happens, they are transformed immediately. resurrected same result but we skip dying part if we are alive then.

 

[dcontroversal]

tell me what caught up in the air means then?

ot prophets phophesied about resurrection yes. not the rapture because rapture is a mystery revealed only to st.paul. its mystery because we didnt know what would happen to those alive when resurrection happens then God revealed it to st.paul and now we know what happens, they are transformed immediately. resurrected same result but we skip dying part if we are alive then.

Technically it is given in the O.T. and you are dealing with one that is as dense as lead and rejects truth on a regular basis...

Enoch
Elijah

Two examples of MEN that did what exactly....??

 

[Melach]

Technically it is given in the O.T. and you are dealing with one that is as dense as lead and rejects truth on a regular basis...

Enoch
Elijah

Two examples of MEN that did what exactly....??

i want to know too. if caught up in the air doesnt mean caught up in the air i want him to tell me what does it mean exactly and why is it mistranslated in all translations in all languages? looks like big mistake

 

[Absolutely]

It's the same word used in Revelation 2:8 -

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/2-8.htm - G2198 - ezēsen (Rev2:8)

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-4.htm - G2198 - ezēsan (Rev20:4)


Besides that, the word "souls" is used in several other places in scripture, to mean "persons [that is, who are alive and have bodies]"... for example, Acts 7:14, Acts 27:37, and 1 Peter 3:20 (none of these are referring to body-less "souls" floating around. )


So yes, Rev20:4b is speaking of those trib saints who DIED in the trib, now alive ("resurrected") to reign with Him for 1000 years (and this "resurrection" [not "RAPTURE"] for them takes place AFTER/AT END of trib).

Btw.
Your model ASSUMES resurrection also includes a ascention.
Resurrection only brings a dead being back to life. The spirit retuning to a revamped restored body.
Ascention(rapture) is a COMPLETELY separate component.
So you painted yourself into expressing a partial rapture.
You must now explain a rapture at the end of the gt.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It says zero about a post trib pre mil resurrection.
Nor does it fit.
They are ALREADY ESTABLISHED as sitting on thrones in rev 20.
But beyond that,you are concluding that the first resurrection is ONLY those martyrs and that erroneous "first resurrection" is AFTER the gt.
We know for a fact that is false.

It appears you have not seen my posts regarding v.6's "Blessed and holy is he HAVING A PART [G3313 - meros] in the resurrection, the first..." (same concept expressed in 1Cor15:23's "but EACH [means, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] IN HIS OWN ORDER" [showing there doesn't remain only ONE])...

"having A PART"...

(aside from the fact that I believe the "and" in verse 4 separates two distinct groups [part a a group and also part b a distinct group]) I simply see these beheaded/martyred TRIB saints to be the last group (of the FIRST resurrection, that "OF LIFE") to be "resurrected" (the OT saints will also be "resurrected" [same general time-slot] to be also present FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [Dan12:13, for example]--NO SAINT will be left out! ALL present and accounted for!)

 

[dcontroversal]

i want to know too. if caught up in the air doesnt mean caught up in the air i want him to tell me what does it mean exactly and why is it mistranslated in all translations in all languages? looks like big mistake

If I had a die for everything biblical he rejects i would have at least 10 dollars in my...he does not even believe we are saved until the end......FALSE......I mostly ignore his drivel...

 

[Noose]

tell me what caught up in the air means then?

Doesn't mean what you think it means.

ot prophets phophesied about resurrection yes. not the rapture because rapture is a mystery revealed only to st.paul. its mystery because we didnt know what would happen to those alive when resurrection happens then God revealed it to st.paul and now we know what happens, they are transformed immediately. resurrected same result but we skip dying part if we are alive then.

Resurrection and what happens after is not a mystery. Just about every apostle taught about it and almost every prophet prophesied about it.

Here is Isaiah talking about resurrection and what happens after resurrection:

Isa 26:
19Your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust!
For your dew is like the dew of the morning,
and the earth will bring forth her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut your doors behind you.
Hide yourselves a little while
until the wrath has passed.
21For behold, the LORD is coming out of His dwelling
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.
The earth will reveal her bloodshed
and will no longer conceal her slain.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Btw.
Your model ASSUMES resurrection also includes a ascention.
Resurrection only brings a dead being back to life. The spirit retuning to a revamped restored body.
Ascention(rapture) is a COMPLETELY separate component.
So you painted yourself into expressing a partial rapture.
You must now explain a rapture at the end of the gt.

There is NO "RAPTURE" after the trib... only "resurrection" (for OT saints [Dan12:13, etc], and for Trib saints who DIED in the trib [Rev20:4b]). "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and took place years before this point in the chronology.

It is your faulty idea of the "FEAST/SUPPER" being held "UP IN Heaven" that would require such an idea, but as scripture would have it, "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" does NOT mean "UP IN Heaven" (only "the MARRIAGE" itself, takes place "up there" [this being the distinct between "the Day of Christ/our Lord Jesus Christ" (up in Heaven, WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] HIM), and "the Day of the Lord" (which is a time-period unfolding entirely upon the earth)--note: 2Th2:2 refers to the latter of these two, and should be translated such ('the DOTL')])

 

[Melach]

Doesn't mean what you think it means.

you already told me that i dont know what it means.

now tell me what it does mean.
if you know the truth and refuse to say it when asked God will hold you accountable

 

[Noose]

...and yet Jesus,john,paul,the 2 witnesses,the ones taken in mat 24,and those in 1 thes 4 do exactly what you say they don't.

No.
Paul and John saw visions. If rapture is about visions then i'm in agreement.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Resurrection only brings a dead being back to life. The spirit retuning to a revamped restored body.
Ascention(rapture) is a COMPLETELY separate component.

I meant to add this to my last post also...

I am always pointing out that "resurrection [to stand again on the earth]" is something distinct from "rapture / harpazo / harpagēsometha [G726]" (when we ['the Church which is His body'] will be 'caught up/caught away').

Also, I believe "ascension" and "rapture" are not identical things.

The 2 Witnesses "ascended up to heaven [not "raptured"]... and their enemies beheld them" [similarly worded to Jesus' going up, in Acts 1]... I do not believe this is what "our Rapture" will look like (nor that Acts 1 is speaking to [in reference to] our Rapture, when they say He "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven," but rather speaks of His "RETURN" to the earth, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [that is, VISIBLY]; I believe our Rapture will be more like His earlier "[active] I ascend" [40 days earlier than Acts 1], though our Rapture will be "[passive] caught up" on our part; nobody "saw" Him ascend THAT day... MM was only told by Him to "SAY UNTO" the disciples... [and note, later, it says they didn't believe those who saw Him after His resurrection])

 

[Noose]

you already told me that i dont know what it means.

now tell me what it does mean.
if you know the truth and refuse to say it when asked God will hold you accountable

This is what it means, pay careful attention.

1 Thess 4: 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13And in keeping with what is written: “I believed, therefore I have spoken,”c we who have the same spirit of faith also believe and therefore speak, 14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

1. Paul is counting himself among those that are alive in 1 Thess 4
2. Paul is counting himself among those that are raised and caught up with his listeners
3. Means the words live on through the understanding of the living believers. i.e, dead believers are resurrected and they indwell the living believers. This is what it means the dead arise and are caught up together with the living.
The reason Paul while teaching the Corinthians about resurrection, asks:

1 Cor 15:29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is what it means, pay careful attention.
[…]
14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

I'm not saying that 2Cor4 [context] isn't referring to our/their being animated with divine life in the here and now; but... I would like to ask you... do you believe Jesus was not resurrected bodily, and only (say) in the spirits of those who are/become saved [/believers]??

[so... "our Rapture" is something that will take place at a certain point in time / one point in time (future to this present moment)]

 

[Noose]

i want to know too. if caught up in the air doesnt mean caught up in the air i want him to tell me what does it mean exactly and why is it mistranslated in all translations in all languages? looks like big mistake

Not mistranslated but a definite misunderstanding for many.

Caught up means the dead believers are resurrected and indwell the living believers.
I know it sounds weird but it is what it is.

Again:

2 Pet 1:13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body, 14since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times.

 

[Noose]

I'm not saying that 2Cor4 [context] isn't referring to our/their being animated with divine life in the here and now; but... I would like to ask you... do you believe Jesus was not resurrected bodily, and only (say) in the spirits of those who are/become saved [/believers]??

[so... "our Rapture" is something that will take place at a certain point in time / one point in time (future to this present moment)]

1. Resurrection is not about the flesh; i know Paul talks about spiritual body but it is not flesh and blood and bones but an understanding (spirit)

2. Heaven in the NT means the heart (mind) of believers. This is God's dwelling place and you can not get in there with your flesh and blood and bones, just your spirit. David describes a soul in Psalm 103, better read it.

3. Jesus' bodily resurrection was for a perverse generation and in fulfillment of prophesy and so that the gospel could be preached, otherwise the scriptures are clear that He resurrected spiritually immediately after dying:

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[iamsoandso]

Never heard of a9,a2,a13 etc.
What is it?

Not everyone sees the Church beginning at the same times. Acts 2 dispensationist see it beginning in Acts 2(A2D),,Acts 9 Dispensationist say it began in Acts 9(A9D). Acts 13 Dispensationals say it began in Acts 13, A28D's say it began in Acts 28 in the prison epistles Paul wrote and another group is B.W.Newton but their are others also now days.

There are other,,,, "camps",,,(positions held in eschatology) A millennial, peterist ect. also but the just of it is that they see the Church beginning and the OT ending at some point in time and see one or another prophecy fulfilled or not in a past tense or future tense. I apologize that this seems complicated but I condensed things in my explanation(there are other camps too,lol)that I left out. In short it's why we all see when things like the Resurrection, rapture,,Church beginning, OT ending,,,whose in the the body of Christ,whoes not ect.ect. were fulfilled or if their still future tense.