Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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Greetings SW,
I like that idea, "until they are perfected"
I also like the version in Luke;
Luk 17:3-4 KJV Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
In luke you recognize the word "repent". Now a man can say he repents and since a man cannot read his own heart let alone another mans heart, as only God can, he must take him at his word. Now if a man comes to God feigning repentance and asking for forgiveness, well, that's another matter, especially since God Himself is who gifts us with repentance. We cannot bring forth repentance of ourselves. We must ask for it sincerely, humbly.
Truly lovely citations and words SW, all of them.
SG
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Read a few lines of your profile words. I really appreciate the words; BACK INTO MY PEACE.
SG
SG
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Wise point SW. I think many question not if our Heavenly Father would revoke it, but if a man "abides not" in the vine and hence bears no fruit, perhaps it is a sign that that man has rejected the vine, the gift. Jesus states that The Father Himself will cut off that branch and it will be burned in the fire. Not a pleasant thought. But the fruitless branch rejected, I think we can say that God did not revoke.
Abide.
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Wise point SW. I think many question not if our Heavenly Father would revoke it, but if a man "abides not" in the vine and hence bears no fruit, perhaps it is a sign that that man has rejected the vine, the gift. Jesus states that The Father Himself will cut off that branch and it will be burned in the fire. Not a pleasant thought. But the fruitless branch rejected, I think we can say that God did not revoke.
Abide.
Abide.
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Yes, I agree with Gods option. He shows in Israel and even in His long term plans the idea of a Jubilee. Where all debt is forgiven and everything returned to some previous place. I wouldn't want to bet my life on the possibility or even more I grieve at the thought of losing the heavenly gift of the Holy Spirit and fellowship with Yahshua and the Heavenly Father. That loss must have been unbearable for Adam. How many centuries did he grieve over that choice and it's consequences? Perhaps the promise to his seed sustained Him in some way and perhaps time and distance lessened the trauma. God is gracious, merciful and I can only speculate, but perhaps there was some mitigating grace for Adam.
Brilliant observations, yes the rope from Knowing,
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My Reply
Maybe you will answer this for me,
I have this passage that is written to GODS ELECT " but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" Clearly for Gods elect and no one else here,
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Where is it written that " the gifts and callings of God are IRREVOCABLE" for everyone else?
Paul is saying: "You people have not any hint of an idea of how strong and powerful the "carnal man" within each and every one of us (Paul includes himself as well) is!"
"That upon believing and being baptized? the "little" circumcision that was "started in your heart/s", is going to "scare" that which is at enmity with God into simply "giving up and walking away" in defeat?
"That that which has been "circumcised", can become uncircumcised just as quickly?" "Even causing you in thinking you are still circumcised, when you "show" good works?"
"That's just plain silliness!" "And, dangerous silliness, at that!"
"That upon believing and being baptized? the "little" circumcision that was "started in your heart/s", is going to "scare" that which is at enmity with God into simply "giving up and walking away" in defeat?
"That that which has been "circumcised", can become uncircumcised just as quickly?" "Even causing you in thinking you are still circumcised, when you "show" good works?"
"That's just plain silliness!" "And, dangerous silliness, at that!"
No, I respect you not being accusatory or using labels this time around while still disagreeing.
But....
.....you did change/add points to what we agreed to discuss, which I thought we weren't going to do.
So I hope you don't mind me addressing the new points since you've made them?
----
I think it's critical to note the difference between the phrase "working at the law" and "works of the law".
In the scripture we find the phrases:
- good works
- dead works
- works of the law
...but not the phrase "working at the law", which gives a different connotation.
Titus 2:14 (berean)[bracket mine]
[Christ] who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and might purify to Himself a people specially chosen, zealous for good works.
We are told that Christ's purpose is to purify for himself a people ZEALOUS for good works. The word zealous means "passionate; fervent; devoted". So Christs purpose is to create people passionate, FEVERENT about doing good works.
But what are "good works" in this context? Well scripture explains that dead works are "sins"; acts that lead to death (Hebrew 6:1). So good works are the opposite of "sins". Notice Christ redeems from lawlessness.
The law was indeed first provided as a code separated into different categories/compartments.
Genesis 26:5
because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, (1) My commandments, (2) My statutes, and (3) My laws.”
Deuteronomy 6:1
Now these are (1) the commandments, (2) the statutes, and (3) the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
Leviticus 26:3
If you follow (1) My statutes and carefully keep (2) My commandments,
Exekiel 11:20
so that they may follow (1) My statutes, keep (2) My ordinances, and practice them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God.
Another version will say "the commands, decrees, and laws". It's always been divided into categories/compartments, just like we have the legislative, executive and judicial sections of our laws and government.
One section of our law deals with how to operate day to day...
One section deals with how to handle crimes...
One section deals with how to handle disputes, etc.
The same is true for Yah's government. The commandments are how we are to operate, the judgments deal with our crime/sins (also involving the temple), the statutes deal with disputes, etc.
Again this is a government setup by the King. He's free to establish and then change sections of his law as necessary. And whatever he changes it to because the WHOLE LAW at that point. And as Hebrews explains he changed the law with regard to judgment (i.e. how to handle our crimes/sins).
Thanks for your respectfulness.
But....
.....you did change/add points to what we agreed to discuss, which I thought we weren't going to do.
So I hope you don't mind me addressing the new points since you've made them?
----
I think it's critical to note the difference between the phrase "working at the law" and "works of the law".
In the scripture we find the phrases:
- good works
- dead works
- works of the law
...but not the phrase "working at the law", which gives a different connotation.
Titus 2:14 (berean)[bracket mine]
[Christ] who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and might purify to Himself a people specially chosen, zealous for good works.
We are told that Christ's purpose is to purify for himself a people ZEALOUS for good works. The word zealous means "passionate; fervent; devoted". So Christs purpose is to create people passionate, FEVERENT about doing good works.
But what are "good works" in this context? Well scripture explains that dead works are "sins"; acts that lead to death (Hebrew 6:1). So good works are the opposite of "sins". Notice Christ redeems from lawlessness.
The law was indeed first provided as a code separated into different categories/compartments.
Genesis 26:5
because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, (1) My commandments, (2) My statutes, and (3) My laws.”
Deuteronomy 6:1
Now these are (1) the commandments, (2) the statutes, and (3) the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
Leviticus 26:3
If you follow (1) My statutes and carefully keep (2) My commandments,
Exekiel 11:20
so that they may follow (1) My statutes, keep (2) My ordinances, and practice them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God.
Another version will say "the commands, decrees, and laws". It's always been divided into categories/compartments, just like we have the legislative, executive and judicial sections of our laws and government.
One section of our law deals with how to operate day to day...
One section deals with how to handle crimes...
One section deals with how to handle disputes, etc.
The same is true for Yah's government. The commandments are how we are to operate, the judgments deal with our crime/sins (also involving the temple), the statutes deal with disputes, etc.
Again this is a government setup by the King. He's free to establish and then change sections of his law as necessary. And whatever he changes it to because the WHOLE LAW at that point. And as Hebrews explains he changed the law with regard to judgment (i.e. how to handle our crimes/sins).
Thanks for your respectfulness.
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That's not really how covenants work. A covenant is like a contract where two parties agree to their ends of the bargain.
If one part of the bargain is not held up then the whole covenant is annulled. One party can't just decide to change the details of the covenant at their whim.
I know God is God and He is sovereign and He decided to change the old covenant. And therefore the WHOLE THING was null and void at that point and a NEW COVENANT was implemented.
But this New Covenant didn't cause the goal of the old covenant to be lost. That's kind of why it was described as a shadow. The old covenant pointed to the new things but couldn't provide them the way the New Covenant does.
Hebrew 7:18
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The law made nothing perfect which refers back to the disannulling of the commandments.
Not sure how I can help you to see that it is the WHOLE LAW that was changed and not just portions.
If one part of the bargain is not held up then the whole covenant is annulled. One party can't just decide to change the details of the covenant at their whim.
I know God is God and He is sovereign and He decided to change the old covenant. And therefore the WHOLE THING was null and void at that point and a NEW COVENANT was implemented.
But this New Covenant didn't cause the goal of the old covenant to be lost. That's kind of why it was described as a shadow. The old covenant pointed to the new things but couldn't provide them the way the New Covenant does.
Hebrew 7:18
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The law made nothing perfect which refers back to the disannulling of the commandments.
Not sure how I can help you to see that it is the WHOLE LAW that was changed and not just portions.
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Kind of why Paul warns people to not go back to their work at the law (10 commandments) but to remain steadfast in their Liberty which is in Christ.
Because there is a part of them that is carnal and desires to continue their work "for" God instead of abiding in the "circumcision" that was started in their hearts.
Not understanding that they are Gods Workmanship now and not their own.
Because there is a part of them that is carnal and desires to continue their work "for" God instead of abiding in the "circumcision" that was started in their hearts.
Not understanding that they are Gods Workmanship now and not their own.
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