What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the "6 days versus about 8 days" possible inconsistency - is it not describing the same journey with the same starting and end points? Is that clear from the text? If it's not describing exactly the same journey then maybe you are right?

I will give you an example and, hopefully, you will be able to grasp this simple truth which you have somehow been unable to understand.

In the course of my work, I use a date calculator from time to time when I need to calculate the amount of days between two dates. Here are various results I have calculated between two dates (08/18/2019 and 08/25/2019):


Result when first day is included and last day is excluded:

​

Result when first day is included and last day is included:

​

Result when only US workdays are included:

​

All three results are correct, even though the results indicate 5 days, 7, days, 8 days.

There is still the problem of who is observing these events as they happen but that does not relate to any alleged inconsistency. It only relates to the truth of whether the event took place or whether it's made up.

So now it does not matter if there is no discrepancy in the reckoning of time between two events? It appears you deny the "event" on the mountain took place?

One final point that I am interested in your opinion on - it's not another alleged inconsistency, it's something that reads like an outright error and it bothered me a lot during my deconversion. Matthew Chapter 16.

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus is talking to his disciples and it reads like he is referring to Judgement Day and his Second Coming, yet he appears to be saying that that will happen within the lifetime of his disciples, which is clearly wrong because we are still here in 2019.

You cannot comprehend the simple truth concerning the "six days" of Matthew/Mark and the "about eight days" of Luke, yet you believe you will be able to understand Matt 16:28?

First things first, Spectrox. First, you need to turn to God with your whole heart, seek Him. Then, allow God's Word to permeate your heart, where God brings increase so that you can comprehend. Faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Let's start there ...

 

[Adstar]

The Nearly Infallible Version?!
I will look at the link. There is a possible problem with the birth of Jesus in the Bible in terms of dating.
From Infidels.org: The Gospel of Luke claims (2.1-2) that Jesus was born during a census that we know from the historian Josephus took place after Herod the Great died, and after his successor, Archelaus, was deposed. But Matthew claims (2.1-3) that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was still alive--possibly two years before he died (2:7-16). Other elements of their stories also contradict each other. Since Josephus precisely dates the census to 6 A.D. and Herod's death to 4 B.C., and the sequence is indisputable, Luke and Matthew contradict each other.

Well it all boils down to whom you place ans an infallible authority the current record of the writings of Josephus or the Gospel of Luke.. Now of course someone who is looking to confirm their belief that the Bible is false will hold up the record of Josephus because of the affirming confirmation bias it assists them with.. In the end you have two accounts in opposition.. People can then choose to embrace the account they most want to be true..

As for the actual date of the birth of Jesus i have no problems going back to 4 bc or even 6 bc.. The account of when Jesus started His preaching declares that He was About 30 years old when He started.. So He could have been 27 to 33 at the time.. Maybe a little older.. He simply looked around 30ish at the time..

 

[billymorgan]

the spirits were in the church working and as I looked around the church a great cloud came down and it was charged with electricity surrounded by shooting lightning bolts and after a while it subsided and a figure came forth it was extremely bright I could not see his face but I could see what he was wearing and how he traveled about and I have much more to tell you. I am telling you the truth god is real and I am his living witness.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I will give you an example and, hopefully, you will be able to grasp this simple truth which you have somehow been unable to understand.

What makes you think that Spectrox is looking for the simple truth?

Some do not want the truth. And those who do not love the truth will be blinded to it.

 

[Spectrox]

Please provide links to this empirical research.

Validate your claims.

Define harm?

Whose definition of "harm" is valid?

Whose definition of "well being" is valid?

What is the objective moral standard upon which these concepts can be universally defined?

A good starting point is the following link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-being

There are references at the bottom with research and publications in the field.

The starting point for all moral claims is subjective, including yours. However, there are certain facts about the human condition that I reckon we could all agree on, e.g. everyone who drinks battery acid will suffer physical harm or death OR everyone who is the victim in an abusive relationship will suffer emotional harm. Once we agree on what constitutes wellbeing and harm, then various scenarios can be evaluated and assessed. Otherwise, why do we have Social Services who intervene if a child is at risk of significant harm? Why do we have hospitals for mentally disabled people? When you are talking about morality you are talking about something else. However, it is still subjective and is not necessarily from a single source because the Bible can easily be argued to be a collection of books from about 40 different authors. The notion that a God looked after it has never been demonstrated.

 

[Spectrox]

And where did your "reasoning" come from? . . . Instead of objectively answering the question - you begin to insert things like "Santa Claus, brainwashed, etc. . . . If you would listen to PennEd, he is one of the most gently loving people you will run into here on CC . . . or you can keep going down your lines of reasoning and science that have no basis for morality at all . . .

Well, I've long believed that God is the adult version of Santa Claus. No one has ever seen the real God. And he knows when you've been naughty or nice.... allegedly.
My reasoning is an emergent property of the brain based on experience and reflection but it is grounded in the Laws of Logic.
PennEd may be a decent person in real life. But here, in this place, he just makes assertions that he never justifies. At least some of the other Christians on this thread are engaging intelligently with what I'm saying and producing some reasonable counter arguments. With PennEd I feel like I'm repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[Spectrox]

the spirits were in the church working and as I looked around the church a great cloud came down and it was charged with electricity surrounded by shooting lightning bolts and after a while it subsided and a figure came forth it was extremely bright I could not see his face but I could see what he was wearing and how he traveled about and I have much more to tell you. I am telling you the truth god is real and I am his living witness.

Hilarious! Is this guy for real? I would love to know what meds he's on.

 

[Spectrox]

First, just to make very clear, I am in no way offended by you, or feel any ill will what so ever. In fact this is one of the best conversations I've had in a while. I love this stuff man, and if you understood for one second how much I have hated the God I claimed I didn't believe in, and how my view of Christianity was "made up by the power elite to control the weak minded", then you would very much understand that I will not be easily offended, I understand you are blind to these things as I was, and that they are foolishness to you. I get it, this "old book written by men", says the same thing, but see I was reborn THEN went to His word, this is why I have to testify of His saving power, even when I look foolish to the lost, Jesus Christ is King of everything brother, and He is calling you to Himself. That is why you're even here, you don't need "evidence", you need to hear the truth, you need to hear Jesus loves you and gave everything so we might be reconciled to truth, THE truth, go to Him man, He is calling.

I'm glad you're getting something out of our interaction, Jimbone. Christianity clearly works for you and I would encourage you to not let go of what you have. I am honoured that you want to share what you have with me, it's just I'm not convinced. I'm not even convinced that Jesus of Nazareth existed. Apparently, Nazareth didn't exist as a proper town with a synagogue until the 2nd Century. But I'm no historian. I could be wrong I suppose? Take care.

 

[Spectrox]

That is not the difference at all. The difference is whom you consider to be reliable. You can read history books and perhaps believe what is said about Alexander "the great" even though it was written hundreds of years after he lived, but reject outright history that was written within a lifetime of another person simply because of who is writing and Whom is being spoken of. God has repeatedly revealed Himself to people you consider to be unreliable simply because you reject the idea of God.

I don't reject the Christian God for the sake of it. In fact prior to my deconversion I had a lot invested in my belief. But it didn't withstand serious scrutiny. I followed good evidence and sound arguments and over time I realised that my faith was not justified.

 

[Spectrox]

I don't believe, I KNOW. My question to you is are you a ninja Christian or just a lost soul?

This is a bizarre response at this late stage in the discussion. Knowledge is "demonstrable true belief", which means it is a belief that happens to be true and that you can justifiably demonstrate to others. Are you able to do that? If not, then it's just a belief which could be wrong. What is a Ninja Christian and what is a soul? Please define your terms.

 

[Spectrox]

I will give you an example and, hopefully, you will be able to grasp this simple truth which you have somehow been unable to understand.

In the course of my work, I use a date calculator from time to time when I need to calculate the amount of days between two dates. Here are various results I have calculated between two dates (08/18/2019 and 08/25/2019):


Result when first day is included and last day is excluded:

View attachment 203093
​

Result when first day is included and last day is included:

View attachment 203094 ​

Result when only US workdays are included:

View attachment 203095 ​

All three results are correct, even though the results indicate 5 days, 7, days, 8 days.





So now it does not matter if there is no discrepancy in the reckoning of time between two events? It appears you deny the "event" on the mountain took place?





You cannot comprehend the simple truth concerning the "six days" of Matthew/Mark and the "about eight days" of Luke, yet you believe you will be able to understand Matt 16:28?

First things first, Spectrox. First, you need to turn to God with your whole heart, seek Him. Then, allow God's Word to permeate your heart, where God brings increase so that you can comprehend. Faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Let's start there ...

Thank you for that. What you've said does make sense. There may not be an inconsistency afterall.

I still think there is a narrative problem by having 4 accounts. Are they real observations, if so by whom? How do we know the stories are not just made up or part-plagiarised with the author's own spin put on it?

I would be interested in a brief explanation of Matthew 16 though, if you have time, as part of our final exchange. It does read very much like Judgement Day being within the lifetime of the disciples.

 

[Spectrox]

Your bias is showing.

This means you are not objective.

Are you 100% objective? Be honest!

 

[Spectrox]

What makes you think that Spectrox is looking for the simple truth?

Some do not want the truth. And those who do not love the truth will be blinded to it.

What's your starting point definition of truth? I have often found that Christians have a tenuous grip on the concept.

 

[DesertRunner]

This is a bizarre response at this late stage in the discussion. Knowledge is "demonstrable true belief", which means it is a belief that happens to be true and that you can justifiably demonstrate to others. Are you able to do that? If not, then it's just a belief which could be wrong. What is a Ninja Christian and what is a soul? Please define your terms.

If you do one thing on this site PLEASE FIND GOD.

 

[UnderGrace]

Are you 100% objective? Be honest!

No, but then I have not made subjective comments about atheist and their dogma where as you have made several with regards to the Bible.

 

[Jimbone]

What's your starting point definition of truth? I have often found that Christians have a tenuous grip on the concept.

I don't know what his definition of truth is, but mine is Jesus. Jesus the Christ is the truth and everything is under Him. Outside of Him you cannot know truth, at all, because He is the truth and the foundation on which all reality is built on. The fact is that you think you are looking for truth, and that is honestly great and I'm not saying you don't genuinely think you are, and we should all be doing the same, but what you don't understand is that you can not find true where you're looking for it. You can not "prove" God by looking at His creation, and we can not find God from birth because we are born broken, born incomplete. It is impossible to find God in and of ourselves. In the flesh we are hopelessly lost with no way to even conceive of what the problem is because our problem is our dead and disconnected spirit. So you going around saying "I'm just not convinced by the physical evidences and arguments", is nothing more that stating the obvious.

See this is where direct revelation has to come in. If this is the state to which we are born, born to sin headed from birth strait into a loving God's wrath with no way or hope of even knowing what's wrong in the first place, then the only way out is for the one who knows to tell us, right? I know this is a long weird answer to what you asked but stick with me, are you "tracking" so far?

 

[UnderGrace]

A good starting point is the following link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-being

There are references at the bottom with research and publications in the field.

The starting point for all moral claims is subjective, including yours. However, there are certain facts about the human condition that I reckon we could all agree on, e.g. everyone who drinks battery acid will suffer physical harm or death OR everyone who is the victim in an abusive relationship will suffer emotional harm. Once we agree on what constitutes wellbeing and harm, then various scenarios can be evaluated and assessed. Otherwise, why do we have Social Services who intervene if a child is at risk of significant harm? Why do we have hospitals for mentally disabled people? When you are talking about morality you are talking about something else. However, it is still subjective and is not necessarily from a single source because the Bible can easily be argued to be a collection of books from about 40 different authors. The notion that a God looked after it has never been demonstrated.

This is very interesting Mr. Spectrox, and I am sure social scientists can create a valid and reliable measurement tool for "well being" much like the ADDOS is the gold standard for diagnosing autism, however you fail to provide a rational moral reason for the well being scale to begin with?

You see Mr. Spectrox in the area of "moral philosophy" science has its limits, I would dare science cannot answer the questions of moral philosophy for if it were so, moral philosophy would be a finished area of thought and the book would be closed.
You can challenge on this and I can give an example.

So please which are we speaking about?

I am trying to stay on topic so far I have not mentioned the Bible, can you stay on topic?

 

[Magenta]

I don't reject the Christian God for the sake of it. In fact prior to my deconversion I had a lot invested in my belief. But it didn't withstand serious scrutiny. I followed good evidence and sound arguments and over time I realised that my faith was not justified.

What was it you were scrutinizing? The Bible and a myriad of counter claims? What of your experiencing the forgiveness of God? Did you decide you had just imagined it, or wished it to be true and had therefore deceived yourself? Having been once deceived, by your own self, surely you must acknowledge you are capable of deceiving yourself further?

 

[Journeyman]

What was it you were scrutinizing? The Bible and a myriad of counter claims? What of your experiencing the forgiveness of God? Did you decide you had just imagined it, or wished it to be true and had therefore deceived yourself? Having been once deceived, by your own self, surely you must acknowledge you are capable of deceiving yourself further?

Spectrox was deceived when he started thinking he had a lot invested in his belief.

 

[billymorgan]

Hilarious! Is this guy for real? I would love to know what meds he's on.

what I say is known to you but yet has not come, the gift I give you is a glimpse of the truth which is to come this is the gift that was given to me from God and this is the gift I give to you god is real and the lord is among us.