The Irreducible Complex System (Psa. 77:13)

[Hemustincrease]

The Irreducible Complex System (Psa. 77:13)

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This thread is about the first Picture, the Irreducible Complex System of the Plan of Redemption as it is in the Sanctuary of God. All parts are required to be in at-one-ment, to remove any one, the whole ceases to function, no longer being in at-one-ment and the Plan of Redemption cannot work.

Most persons stop at the Courtyard in the Altar of Burnt Offering, and think Calvary finished everything. What they do not realize is that "It is finished." refers to the work of the atoning sacrifice, the laying the foundation of the final Temple in the corner stone, the perfect character of Christ Jesus, not the work of the Great High Priest, as per Hebrews and Revelation, etc. Passover is not Pentecost, neither Trumpets, Atonement or Tabernacles.

As Creation, so too Re-Creation (Redemption).

Hi thanks for sharing this I learn't a lot today it is interesting how the old covenant sanctuary system points to the new covenant and outlines God's plan of salvation in the new. I am not sure why others are not picking up on this.

God bless

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

How do you explain that the word "holy places" ('into the holy places') is plural?

Refers to the Sanctuary in the courtyard (excluding courtyard) as a whole, since it is a single place with two rooms, called the house of the LORD. As such, one enters through the first veil (entering into the House), and later through the second.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

A lot of what you wrote I need to go check out. seems I should give you the common courtesy to do that much.

Appreciated. Best way to do things. No worries, but I only ask that you truly pray asking God for truth of the matter. I did. If you have any questions, please ask and we can look together and study together. Really. I am not above studying the hard questions.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

So I find a lot of how you are putting things together very,,,,,,,I would like to hear more. Hopefully you have been dismissed, I am sorry to say but I do better without all the name calling.

Sure. Any time. It truly is much better one on one. Is there a way for me to contact you by email? If not, that is ok. We can remain here, and I will try to focus on your questions, comments, or interests and not lose track.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

I get the tabernacle, the veils and the Holy of Holies, but are you saying Jesus has or has not entered yet?

Jesus has entered the Holy Place upon his 2nd ascension (Mt Olivet in Luke 24 and Acts 1; Rev. 12), and thus we see Jesus in the midst of the 7 branch candlesticks of the Heavenly Sanctuary in Revelation 1, where the Father received Him in Revelation 4-5. After a specific time prophecy ended in Daniel 8, the Son and Father both moved into the Most Holy place to begin the anti-typical day of atonement. It is now almost over, and Jesus is about to step out from between God (the Father) and wrath unmingled without mercy from the Ark. There will be a period of delay in Jesus doing this. This takes place just before Jesus returns. He goes from the Most Holy, back into the Holy and changes from priestly 'gear' to Kingly 'gear".

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

I am so tired and lost I will have to read it all again and see and go check it out for myself. I think you have a lot more to say and I would like to hear it until I too think you are a nut. (Just kidding, maybe)

No worries. This study does take time. Like I said, if you have honest questions or concerns or insights, please share. Let us study together, and I mean that. After having studied this, there is no way out of this. I looked. If others think me nuts, well, I hope it is coconuts.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

And thank you. and sorry. We seem to be missing a lot of the Fruits of the Spirit, but damn if we don't have tons of righteous indignation to far exceed its need.

You're welcome. No need to be sorry. I get it, really. Worldviews. Ours or His. That is the real struggle. Do we see it as God, or no?

Yes, I know all about the indignation, but I also understand the others position. I used to be in the same, until God wrecked my worldview through His word. Wasn't pretty, I was angry at first, until I had more understanding, and then the beauty was seen.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The issues, is that God is the God of order, not of confusion. The Last 3 feasts are Fall, not Spring feasts. God does things in Season, as He ordained them.
[…]
If Jesus does not fulfill the feasts in their proper order, He is not the Messiah.
There is no text in scripture which states Jesus fulfilled those Last three feasts at Calvary, which would be out of order, out of Season, and not in accordance with the Sanctuary pattern He Himself gave to Moses.

Sometimes I hear people saying "the feasts must be fulfilled in their proper order," but then I see things like the following (just for example... too late and too tired to go into the many I could) which make me wonder if that's actually the case (at least, in how it is presented when I see ppl saying such)... the questions being:

--if the spring feasts were [supposedly] all "fulfilled" in the same year of each other, why are the fall feasts [supposedly] spread out over many years, for their "fulfillments" (in these depictions some give)?

--what of the things said (in Lk22:30,16,18 and parallels) regarding "Passover" (in my Post #3613 [pg 181] in another thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/d...-to-keep-the-law-of-moses.185392/post-3993744 ) and its "future" aspects I pointed out there?

--Jesus was likely "born" on Tabernacles ("the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us" John 1:14; as well as the study of the "course of Abia" Luke 1:5, and "when" John the Baptist would likely have been born, in relation [time-wise] with Jesus' birth); and then we also see mention of "feast of Tabernacles" in Zechariah 14:16-18 "IN THAT DAY" (not a 24-hr day, but the Millennial Day)… so, both aspects [time-frames], and not just one

--Colossians 2:16-17 saying "which ARE [plural] A SHADOW [singular] of the things coming [plural]" (and speaking of specific things in that list... and which I see correlation in Revelation [and which, for the bulk of Revelation, I believe refers to a specific, future, limited (i.e. 7-yr [/2520 days]) time period leading up to His Second Coming to the earth (that is, FOLLOWING our Rapture), and in which I can make out that "outline / skeleton / backbone / framework ['shadow']" [of "things coming"])])

--I see the Dan8:14 wording to be referring to "1150 days" (re: the "dailies")… not sure how you are seeing that

--I could mention things about "the Day of Atonement" and how Rev8:1-5 (if I recall, or is it vv.1-4, I forget) speak to those things which took place only on that day... and thus, how it "fits" with the rest of the chronology (recall, I believe 4:1-chpt 19 is 2520 days in length... the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" / "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, yet future)

--many more things, but I'm needin to hit the pillow...

Good night.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

How do you explain that the word "holy places" ('into the holy places') is plural?

The text:

Hebrews 9:12 KJB - Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.​

​

Hebrews 9:12 GNT TR - ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος​

​

There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in Koine Greek [or in any language] that reads "αγια αγιων" [the Most Holy Place, see Hebrews 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Hebrews 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, "τα αγια" [the sanctuary, ie first apartment, the holy place].

the Latin [Jerome's Vulgate] reads, "in sancta",​

the German Luther Bibel 1545 reads, "das Heilige",​

the Wycliffe reads "the holy",​

Stephanus 1550 reads, "τα αγια",​

Scrivener's 1894 reads, "τα αγια",​

and even Westcott's and Hort's 1881 reads, "τα αγια".​

the UBS 5th reads, "τὰ ἅγια",​

the Novum Testamentum Graece 28th [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc] reads, "τὰ ἅγια" without a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation from this reading in any known extant mss, etc.] Consider:​

​

Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.​

​

Hebrews 8:2 GNT TR - των αγιων λειτουργος και της σκηνης της αληθινης ην επηξεν ο κυριος και ουκ ανθρωπος​

​

Hebrews 9:1 KJB - Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.​

​

Hebrews 9:1 GNT TR - ειχεν μεν ουν και η πρωτη δικαιωματα λατρειας το τε αγιον κοσμικον​

​

Hebrews 9:2 KJB - For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.​

​

Hebrews 9:2 GNT TR - σκηνη γαρ κατεσκευασθη η πρωτη εν η η τε λυχνια και η τραπεζα και η προθεσις των αρτων ητις λεγεται αγια​

​

Hebrews 9:3 KJB - And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;​

​

Hebrews 9:3 GNT TR - μετα δε το δευτερον καταπετασμα σκηνη η λεγομενη αγια αγιων​

​

Hebrews 9:7 KJB - But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:​

​

Hebrews 9:7 GNT TR - εις δε την δευτεραν απαξ του ενιαυτου μονος ο αρχιερευς ου χωρις αιματος ο προσφερει υπερ εαυτου και των του λαου αγνοηματων​

​

Hebrews 9:8 KJB - The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:​

​

Hebrews 9:8 GNT TR - τουτο δηλουντος του πνευματος του αγιου μηπω πεφανερωσθαι την των αγιων οδον ετι της πρωτης σκηνης εχουσης στασιν​

​

Hebrews 9:24 KJB - For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:​

​

Hebrews 9:24 GNT TR - ου γαρ εις χειροποιη τα αγια εισηλθεν ο χριστος αντιτυπα των αληθινων αλλ εις αυτον τον ουρανον νυν εμφανισθηναι τω προσωπω του θεου υπερ ημων​

​

Hebrews 9:25 KJB - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;​

​

Hebrews 9:25 GNT TR - ουδ ινα πολλακις προσφερη εαυτον ωσπερ ο αρχιερευς εισερχεται εις τα αγια κατ ενιαυτον εν αιματι αλλοτριω​

​

Hebrews 10:19 KJB - Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,​

​

Hebrews 10:19 GNT TR - εχοντες ουν αδελφοι παρρησιαν εις την εισοδον των αγιων εν τω αιματι ιησου​

​

Hebrews 13:11 KJB - For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.​

​

Hebrews 13:11 GNT TR - ων γαρ εισφερεται ζωων το αιμα περι αμαρτιας εις τα αγια δια του αρχιερεως τουτων τα σωματα κατακαιεται εξω της παρεμβολης​

​

Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:​

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Revelation 15:5 GNT TR - και μετα ταυτα ειδον και ιδου ηνοιγη ο ναος της σκηνης του μαρτυριου εν τω ουρανω​

​

Notice the OT uses:

Exodus 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.​

​

Exodus 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.​

​

The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].

The Greek translated "Holy Place" is ta hagia, meaning 'holy places." The reference is to the heavenly sanctuary as a whole. In the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), the singular or plural of hagios, ia, on often refers to the sanctuary as a whole, including both the Holy and Most Holy apartments. For example, see in the Septuagint Exod. 36:1,3, 4; Lev. 5:15; 10:4; 27:3; Num 3:31, 32; 4:12, 16; 7:9; 18:5. Thus the word in general simply means entering into the Sanctuary through the First, or Outer, Veil from the Courtyard.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

--if the spring feasts were [supposedly] all "fulfilled" in the same year of each other, why are the fall feasts [supposedly] spread out over many years, for their "fulfillments" (in these depictions some give)?

Because the Spring feasts were upon the earth, the courtyard. The Fall feasts are abiding by Heavenly Sanctuary time, and thus time flows differently there, see 2 Peter 3:8; Psalms 84:10, 90:4. Thus the "five months", anti-typical time, from Pentecost to Trumpets (Rev. 9:5,6,10), in their proper season.

1Th_5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Ch_12:32 And of the children of Issachar, which were men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do; the heads of them were two hundred; and all their brethren were at their commandment.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

--what of the things said (in Lk22:30,16,18 and parallels) regarding "Passover" (in my Post #3613 [pg 181] in another thread: https://christianchat.com/threads/d...-to-keep-the-law-of-moses.185392/post-3993744 ) and its "future" aspects I pointed out there?

Not Passover, but Tabernacles. See Leviticus

Lev 23:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
Lev 23:35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
Lev 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
Lev 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 23:44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

The Final Harvest ...

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

Jesus was likely "born" on Tabernacles

I actually agree with you here.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

--Colossians 2:16-17 saying "which ARE [plural] A SHADOW [singular] of the things coming [plural]"

This proves what I said. This is why Paul said, "Let us keep the feast"; 1 Cor. 5:8; (not the type, but the antitype, the reality as it is in Christ Jesus and His ministry).

What most do is end up in either ditch on the side of the truth. They either cast away all the feasts as fulfilled, and thus pay no attention to the times/seasons, or they attempt to keep the type and through a bit of Christ in the mix. Both are errors.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Regarding your Post #149, it may just be due to my tiredness, but (for example) I cannot tell if you are saying (and what it might be) as far as what the differences are (if you are seeing any) among, say, the following three verses (as far as the word under discussion there):


Heb9:12 - https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-12.htm "G40 - hagia [plural]" / "holy places"

Heb9:25 - https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-25.htm "G40 - hagia [plural]" / "holy places"

Heb10:19 - https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/10-19.htm "G40 -hagiōn [plural]" / "holy places"

 

[stonesoffire]

Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that this is gonna end up as a complex irreductible WORKS DOCTRINE?

No, he is talking about the work of Holy Spirit. We can agree and flow with Him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This proves what I said. This is why Paul said, "Let us keep the feast"; 1 Cor. 5:8; (not the type, but the antitype, the reality as it is in Christ Jesus and His ministry).

What most do is end up in either ditch on the side of the truth. They either cast away all the feasts as fulfilled, and thus pay no attention to the times/seasons, or they attempt to keep the type and through a bit of Christ in the mix. Both are errors.

I see this as speaking to/for/about "the Church which is His body" and regarding a specific thing, and then the previous verse stating [factually], "as ye are unleavened" ('FOR even Christ our passover has been sacrificed for us')

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

--I see the Dan8:14 wording to be referring to "1150 days" (re: the "dailies")… not sure how you are seeing that

There is not a single place in scripture, especially not in Daniel that says 1150 (Jesuitism does) days. It is specifically 2,300 days or evening-mornings (vs 26), which defined by Genesis are whole days, and thus prophetic days, which ties right into the "daily" or "evening morning" services:

Church of Ireland; Irish Clergyman and Scientific Writer: William Hales (AD 8 April 1747 – AD 30 January 1831) on Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

“... [page 11] 3. If now we count forward ... the prophetic division of the 1260 years ... and included perhaps in that specified by Daniel VIII, 13-14, as of consisting of "2300 [page 11-12] prophetic days, or years," will be closed; supposing it to commence with Daniel's "70 prophetic weeks," or 490 years ...

... And according to the still more sagacious conjecture, of the learned and worthy Layman - (and Irishman too, were I at liberty to divulge his name) - in a Comment on the Revelation, 8vo, 1787, Payne, reckoning the 70 weeks the former branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days - and the latter 2300 - 490 = 1810 ...”

“... [page 76] (at the end of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, Dan. VIII. 14.) ...”

“... [page 145] and the commencement of Daniel's 70 weeks, (forming the first branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, VIII. 14.) ...”

“... [page 199] the amazing commentary, as it is the further illustration of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days in the preceeding chapter, Dan. VIII. ...”

“... [page 206] the assumed commencement of the 70 weeks, and also of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days ...”

“... [page 207] 26. And after the sixty and two weeks, before specified, as the largest division of the 70, was the Anointed [Leader] "cut off" judicially, by an iniquitous sentence, in the midst of the one week, which formed the third and last division, and began with our Lord's Baptism, about AD 27 - "When he was beginning to be thirty years of age," and commenced his mission, which lasted three years and half until his crucifixion, about AD 31.

27. During this one week, which ended about AD 34, (about the martyrdom of Stephan,) a new covenant was established with many of the Jews, of every class; in the midst of which the Temple sacrifice was virtually abrogated by the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the [repentant and believing] world. ...”
“... [page 259]

Grand Prophetic Period of 2300 days - 149
First Division, 70 Weeks, or 490 years - 200
The 7 Weeks - - - - - 205
62 Weeks - - - - - - 207
1 Weeks - - - - - 207,208
Second Division, 1810 Years - - - .ib.
1260 Days (Note a) - - - -8,63
1290 Days - - - - - 34
1335 Days - - - - - 35 ...” [The Inspector, or Select Literary Intelligence for the Vulgar; AD 1798 … [select pages], written in 1799] - http://books.google.com/books?id=-aAPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

--I see the Dan8:14 wording to be referring to "1150 days" (re: the "dailies")… not sure how you are seeing that

From the Bible, the evening morning services and in connection with Genesis.

Methodist: Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) Commentary, on Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4,6; Daniel 7:25, 8:14,26, 9:24,25,27; Revelation 12:14, quoted in relevant part:

Daniel 8:14:

"Unto two thousand and three hundred days - Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. …" - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/daniel/8.htm

Daniel 8:26:

“... The vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true - That mentioned in Daniel 8:14.
For it shall be for many days - Not less than two thousand three hundred years! ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/daniel/8.htm

Methodist: Rev. Joseph Benson (AD 1749 – AD 1821) Commentary, on Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4-6; Daniel 7:25, 8:13, 9:24,25,26,27; Revelation 2:10, quoted in relevant part:

Daniel 8:13:

“... It must, however, be remembered, that many interpreters understand these days in the same sense in which days are generally understood by this prophet, namely, for years; and thus refer the prophecy to antichrist, ... This will carry us on to a still distant time in the church of God, to the completion of that opposition to the church of Christ which has been wished for long since, when the sanctuary will be perfectly cleansed, and to which the twelve hundred ninety and thirteen hundred thirty-five years of chap. 12. must have a reference. Sir Isaac Newton, Obs., chap. 9., not only reckons the days to be years, but will have the horn to be Rome, and does not refer it at all to Antiochus; and in this he is followed, in a great measure, by Bishop Newton ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/daniel/8.htm

Other, Scientist: Sir Isaac Newton (AD 25 December 1642 – AD 20 March 1727) Commentary on Daniel & Revelation; Daniel 8:14; Revelation 2:10, quoted in relevant part:

Daniel 8:14:

"...[8] Daniel, one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel's days are years ...

... The Sanctuary and Host were trampled under foot 2300 days; and in Daniel's Prophecies days are put for years: but the profanation of the Temple in the reign of Antiochus did not last so many natural days. …" - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, the Apocalypse of St. John; Chapter IX - http://books.google.com/books?id=s1_EkzlLWrMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Daniel 9:24,25,26,27:

“... [vs 24] this space of "seventy" weeks is not to be understood of weeks of days; which is too short a time for the fulfilment of so many events as are mentioned; nor were they fulfilled within such a space of time; but of weeks of years, and make up four hundred and ninety years ...

... [vs 25] as Bishop Chandler (c) observes ...

... "the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. ... of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the ... year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death or else compute four hundred and ninety years, the whole seventy weeks, from the seventh of Artaxerxes, by subtracting four hundred and fifty seven years (the space of time between that year and the beginning of A.D.) from four hundred and ninety, and there ... the year of our Lord's death. ...

Calvinism (German): Johann Peter Lange's (AD 10 April 1802, - AD 9 July 1884) Commentary on the Old Testament of AD 1882 on Ezekiel 4:4-6, and others as he cites:

Daniel 8:14 [Lange cites others prevalent throughout the world]:

“... that class of interpreters, quite common in this country and Great Britain, but comparatively rare in Germany, who understand by the days in question so many years, and generally apply the prophecy to the continuance of the papal supremacy. ... Others, adopting the same substitution of years for “days,”... Elliott, the strongest advocate of this theory ... Horæ Apocalypticæ ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/lange/daniel/8.htm

English Baptist: John Gill (AD 23 November 1697 – AD 14 October 1771) on Numbers 14:34; Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24,25,26,27; Ezekiel 4:6; Revelation 2:10, and also as he notes seen from others, quoted in relevant parts:

Daniel 8:14 [John Gill cites others position]:

“... unto two thousand and three hundred days; or so many "mornings" and "evenings" ... so many years, as Jacchiades, and others ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/daniel/8.htm

pastor of Calvary Chapel Santa Barbara: David Guzik Commentary (Pastoral ministry since AD 1982) on Numbers 14:34 and also comments on other passages:

Daniel 8:14 [David Guzik cites others position]:

“... A popular … interpretation of this passage took one year for every day, and William Miller used 2,300 "year-days" …

… Adam Clarke comments show what a hold the year-date approach had to many of his time: "Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. ...” - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/guzik/commentaries/2708.htm

Roman Catholic (Layman, Scientist): Arnold of Villanova (AD 1235 – AD 1313), on Daniel 8:14:

Daniel 8:14:

"... When he says 'two thousand three hundred days' it must be said that by days he understands years. This is clear through the explanation of the angel when he says that in the end the vision will be fulfilled, from which he gives it to be understood by clear expression that in that vision by days are understood years. ..." - Translated from Arnold of Villanova, Introductio in Librum [Joachim] De Semine, fol. 7 v, col. 2, line 34 to fol. 8 r, col. 1, line 2.

"... It is not unaccustomed, in the Scripture of God, for days to under-stand years. Nay, it is certainly usual and frequent. Whence also the Spirit in Ezekiel testifies: 'A day for a year I have reckoned to you. ..." - Translated from Arnold of Villanova, Introductio in Librum [Joachim] De Semine,, fol. 8 r, col. 1, lines 14-20.

As translated/quoted in Leroy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1; Page 750

" ... 'Up to the evening and the morning, two thousand three hundred days.' By a day, however, he understands a year. ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 59 v, col. 2 to fol. 60 r, col. 2.

As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 753

" ... it is certain, as was clear above, that Daniel under the name of days gives us to understand years and not usual days ...”

“... such an understanding agrees with the common concepts of men and the truth of Sacred Scripture commonly known. ..." - Tractatus de Tempore Adventus Antichristi (Treatise on the Time of the Coming of Antichrist), fol. 63 r, col. 1, lines 21-32.

As translated/quoted in LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1, Page 754-755 - http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/PFOF/PFOF1950-V01.pdf#view=fit

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

I could mention things about "the Day of Atonement" and how Rev8:1-5 (if I recall, or is it vv.1-4, I forget) speak to those things which took place only on that day.

Revelation 8:1 is the 7th Seal, about to Open soon.

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

silence in heaven: (connect to:

[1] “voices” before “silence” “in heaven”; the heavenly ministry ongoing; Revelation 4:1,5, 8:13, 10:3-4, 12:10 (AD 31; Romans 5:6), 14:6-12 (three angels messages, “saying with a loud voice” & 4th), 18:1,

Temple Open in Heaven for Ministry (Everlasting Gospel still going forward): Revelation 8:3-4, 14:6-12

Temple Open in Heaven to send forth the 7 Last Plagues: Revelation 15:5, 16:1,5-7

[2] “silence” “in heaven”; the heavenly ministry ceases, smoke fills the Temple, no man allowed to enter, probation closed (Mystery of God, Finished), Revelation 8:1,5, 10:7, 15:8

Temple Closed in Heaven, Ministry ceased, smoke fills the Temple, no man allowed to enter, probation closed (Mystery of God, Finished): Revelation 8:1,5, 10:7, 15:8

[3] “voices” after “silence” “in heaven”; Kingdom Come; Revelation 8:5, 11:15,19, 16:18, 19:1

Temple Opened in Heaven again, out comes Jesus, Victorious for His people: Revelation 11:19

Psalms 50:3 KJB - Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

All of this is seen typified at the Cross of Calvary and somewhat also at Gethsemane. Those things also point to the greater end time events. A period of two earthquakes with events in between such as resurrections, silence, angels, etc. If needful, I can cite from scripture about the "voices" also.

about: (meaning) almost, not quite, not exactly, circa, generally, rounded, approximately: Mark 5:13, 8:9; Luke 2:37, 8:42; John 1:39, 6:19; Acts 1:15, 5:7, 13:18,20, 19:34; Revelation 8:1, 16:21

The space of half an hour: (connect to Revelation 3:10, 17:12, “one hour”, thus about midway through the final “hour”; the last time of Jacob's trouble, the Angel is silent, but still wrestles with us)

this “half an hour” is approximately ½ of the “one hour” (or set time) of Revelation 3:10, 17:12 (which is also not, see following), the midst of the time of final trial, and is:

[A.] not standard time (½ of 1/24 in a standard day (Genesis 1), 30 natural minutes),

[B.] not day for a year principle (therefore not 7-8 days, 1 hour about 15 days in a year; 360 days divided by 12 months divided by 2 (24 “hours” making up the full year) and divided by 2 again; and therefore ½ hour would be half of a half of month, or 7.5 (7 ½) of 30 days, thus “about half an hour” would be approximately 7-8 days of a 360 day (lunar/prophetic) year),

[C.] not a day with the LORD time (a day with the LORD is 1,000 years (such as the Day of the LORD, the final day, the 7th Day of the Cosmic Week - 7,000 years), Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8; which would be 1000 divided by 24, which is 41.6667~ (41 2/3) for 1 hour, and thus divided by 2, for ½ hour of 1,000 years would be 20.8333~ years)

[D.] not a watch in the night time (Psalms 90:4; 1000 years is 1 watch, there are 4 watches in the night & also in the day (8 watches total), a single watch is thus 3 hours (8 watches multiplied by 3 hours each = 24 hours in 8,000 years, which is 333.3333~ (333 1/3) days for 1 hour, and thus divided by 2, for ½ hour of 8,000 years would be 166.6667~ (166 2/3) years)

[E.] not anti-typical feast time (see Leviticus 23).

We can know by the context that the “about the space of half an hour” (Revelation 8:1) and the “hour” (Daniel 3:5,6,7,8,15 (“time”, “same hour”, “time”, “time”, “time”); Luke 22:53 (“hour, and the power of darkness”); Revelation 3:10, 17:12) are not those things, just as the “hour” came in spiritual Egypt/Sodom for the great “earthquake” (Revelation 11:13); and also the “hour” of God's Judgment being come (Revelation 14:7), and the “an hour” of the “a day, and a month, and a year” are pointing to specific moments in prophetic time (such as the end of the 2,300 day/years; AD 1843/44), and yet the “hour” of God's Judgment has been ongoing for the last 170 years.

The word “half an hour” (G2256), while it can mean one half of one hour (G5610) of a natural day, it also generally means: half of a time, a moment, an epoch, an era, a season.

In this (contextual) instance it would be from about the time of the closing of the temple in Heaven, the cessation of the voices of the 3 Angels (and 4th), the finishing of the ministration of the Everlasting Gospel, the wrestling of the Saints in prayer (Heaven is at this “time of trouble” (Psalms 9:9, 10:1, 27:5, 37:39, 41:1; Isaiah 33:2; Jeremiah 14:8, 30:7; Daniel 12:1) silent, the Saints apparently being “left alone”) in the final time of Jacob's trouble (Genesis 32:24,26,31; 2 Peter 1:19), until the time that God the Father speaks forth the Day and Hour.

Revelation 8:2-5, deals with several phases, as it encompasses from the time of Jesus beginning his High priestly ministry, unto its close, then follows the fullness of the view in Revelation 8:6-11:19, which is like unto Revelation 1, followed by Revelation 2-3. It is like Revelation 4-5 followed by Revelation 6-8:1 and it is like Genesis 1 up to 2:3, followed by Genesis 2:4 unto 3, and so on. The same patterns are in Daniel, Gospels, etc.

When Jesus casts down the censor, soon, time is up. I have a more detailed study on it, but it would take up many pages here. Maybe I can put it online (it's incomplete), but it may serve others. I will have to see.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

If sin is covered, it still exists under the covering. It may be exposed if uncovered.

Lev 4 is in the greater context of the whole years services. The "daily" forgiveness can still be negated in the "yearly" if found unworthy of the time pf probation granted in that year.

Matthew 18.

Here are some commentaries for those that are into that sort of thing:

Matthew 18:21-35, Forgiveness Revoked:

John Wesley [Methodist] Commentary on Matthew 18:34 -

"... How observable is this whole account; as well as the great inference our Lord draws from it: The debtor was freely and fully forgiven; He wilfully and grievously offended; His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still say, but when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon can never be retracted? Verily, verily, I say unto you, So likewise will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. ..."

Matthew Henry [Non-Conformist] Commentary [read carefully please] on Matthew 18:21-35 -

"... here is forgiveness with God for the greatest sins, if they be repented of. Though the debt was vastly great, he forgave it all, Mat_18:32. Though our sins be very numerous and very heinous, yet, upon gospel terms, they may be pardoned. [3.] The forgiving of the debt is the loosing of the debtor; He loosed him. The obligation is cancelled, the judgment vacated; we never walk at liberty till our sins are forgiven. But observe, Though he discharged him from the penalty as a debtor, he did not discharge him from his duty as a servant. The pardon of sin doth not slacken, but strengthen, our obligations to obedience; and we must reckon it a favour that God is pleased to continue such wasteful servants as we have been in such a gainful service as his is, and should therefore deliver us, that we might serve him, Luk_1:74. I am thy servant, for thou hast loosed my bonds. ...

(2.) How he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance, so that the judgment against him revived (Mat_18:34); He delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. ..."

The Pulpit Commentary [Rev. Joseph S. Exell and Henry Donald Maurice Spence-Jones] on Matthew 18:21-25 -

"... Christ’s teaching on this point has even a severe side—even his forgiveness may be revoked, if he finds, by our behaviour after forgiveness, that we were morally unfitted to receive it.—R.T. ..."

Jospeh Benson [Methodist] Commentary on Matthew 18:34 -

"... Who in like manner acknowledged his debt, and promised payment, showing thee, in his supplication, though thine equal, as much respect as thou showedst to me, thy lord and king? And his lord was wroth — Was exceedingly enraged; and delivered him to the tormentors — Not only revoked the grant of remission which he had just before made, as forfeited by so vile a behaviour; but put him in prison, commanding him to be there fettered and scourged; till he should pay all that was due unto him — That is, without any hope of release, for the immense debt which he owed he could never be able to pay. ..."

Preacher's Homiletical [Commentary]:

"... Mat_18:23-35. The unforgiving temper.—There is a fine story illustrative of this parable, told by Fleury (Hist. Eccles., 5:2, p. 334). It is briefly this: Between two Christians at Antioch enmity and division had fallen out; after a while one of them desired to be reconciled, but the other, who was a priest, refused. While it was thus with them, the persecution of Valerian began; and Sapricius, the priest, having boldly confessed himself a Christian, was on the way to death. Nicephorus met him, and again sued for peace, which was again refused. While he was seeking, and the other refusing, they arrived at the place of execution. He that should have been the martyr was here terrified, offered to sacrifice to the gods, and, despite the entreaties of the other, did so, making shipwreck of his faith; while Nicephorus, boldly confessing, stepped in his place, and received the crown which Sapricius lost. This whole story runs finely parallel with our parable. Before Sapricius could have had grace to confess thus to Christ, he must have had his own ten thousand talents forgiven; but, refusing to forgive a far lesser wrong, to put away the displeasure he had taken up on some infinitely lighter grounds against his brother, he forfeited all the advantages of his position, his Lord was angry, took away from his grace, and suffered him again to fall under those powers of evil from which he had once been delivered. It comes out, too, in this story, that it is not merely the outward wrong and outrage upon a brother, which constitutes a likeness to the unmerciful servant, but the unforgiving temper, even apart from all such.—Archbishop Trench. ..."

Ellicott's [Charles John, English Christian] Commentary on Matthew 18:35 -

"... Do also unto you.--The words cut through the meshes of many theological systems by which men have deceived themselves. Men have trusted in the self-assurance of justification, in the absolving words of the priest, as though they were final and irreversible. The parable teaches that the debt may come back. If faith does not work by love, it ceases to justify. If the man bind himself once again to his old evil nature, the absolution is annulled. The characters of the discharge are traced (to use another similitude) as in sympathetic ink, and appear or disappear according to the greater or less glow of the faith and love of the pardoned debtor. ..."

Coffman's [James Burton, Church of Christ] Commentaries on the Bible Matthew 18:21-35 -

"... The forgiveness the king extended to the unmerciful sinner was total, complete, and uncluttered with any penalties whatsoever. It would also have been permanent if the servant's conduct had not led to its revocation. That he later fell into condemnation was not due to any quality lacking in the full and free pardon that he received, but was due to his later conduct. ..."

Lev 4 is in the greater context of the whole years services.

I have found no reference to your covering and removing of sin in Lev 4.
Though in concept you might be correct, you need to back this idea up with scripture from the Torah.
If from jewish interpretation and traditions, then this is not authoritative.

Matt 18 the merciful King, is an example of this principle.
The prophecy by Ezekiel suggests you are wrong.

Eze 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

I am not proposing an argument, I am interested in establishing the foundations, and exploring
how this proposal works. Initially it appears not to work.