Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

Grandpa · Aug 9, 2019

OF course a legalist CAN'T believe in OSAS.

It would make your legalism of no effect.

Better be careful and do all the do's and don't do the don't's or otherwise LOSE SALVATION. Its all part of the legalists mind-set.

But what does Faith say?

Faith says "My Sheep hear My Voice and I give them Eternal Life"

Faith says "I will Never leave you nor forsake you"

Grandpa · Aug 9, 2019

SimpleGardner said:

Let's try a little experiment.

Let's get all your legalist buddies together who liked your posts and see how many of them believe that Salvation can be lost.

See if I'm right....

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

SimpleGardner said:

Interesting point. So the Law, the way I laid it out now has the three functions:

1. The Law is beautiful in that is shows us our need for our Savior!
2. The Law is beautiful in that is serves to maintain Civil Order so we may live in peace!
3. The Law is beautiful in that it is a lamp unto the feet of those who have been saved by Grace!

Number one, put "glorious" in place of "beautiful" and of course the preface or the place we found ourselves prior to "our Savior" is "condemnation/condemned"

Number One and Two were all we had before Jesus our redeemers work!

My reference to "Minsitry of condemnation" refers not to that action of the Law in this case but the action of manipulating men who condemn those who testify of Number three! This is the "ministry of righteousness" that the Law now plays a part as guide in the sanctification process that Paul is speaking about in the verses you quoted above.

What once could only condemn the sinner in that the Spirit of the Law was unavailable is now able to guide in the transformation of the sinner who is now saved by grace, because we now have the Holy Spirit which enables use what once only condemned us and now is a guide in our sanctification process.

Without the law, we are teaching "man". It is in the teaching of Gods Law that we are teaching God. There is no other way.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

NayborBear said:

Ohhhhhh. TY

SimpleGardner · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

Yes, Never leave you or forsake you! Beautiful words!

But I see you did not answer regarding Revelations, and that is okay, but, if you do agree with Revelations then;

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

These are impossible to reconcile with your position. The only way to maintain your position would be to agree with many who simply refute the book of Revelations.

I understand the refutation in light of the several contradictions to how many have interpreted Paul's words.

It is also harder to reconcile that a book (Revelations) that is written by John from the mouth of Jesus Himself some 30 years after the last epistle of Paul was written and never even mentioned or confirmed the doctrine of Grace. So that leaves us wondering why He wouldn't confirm a monumental change in the salvation doctrine you derive from Paul's words. I think Paul explains His own words, but most OSAS and "Cheap Grace" adherents deny Paul's own writings that bring that doctrine back in line with the rest of scripture. This was the reason for Peters warning;

2Pe 3:14-17 NIV So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (15) Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

If you find Revelations hard to accept I say put that out there. If this is true for you don't you think we could all enter into discussion on this important matter?

Marcelo · Aug 9, 2019

Lafftur said:

Hello Marcelo and everyone,

Our Lord, Savior and King - Yeshua/Jesus has won the victory for each and everyone of us! There is not one of us, not even Paul that could save us with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses HAD TO BE FULFILLED by a HUMAN BEING - The Word of God had to become flesh (HUMAN FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW) so that He could deliver ALL of us from The Law of Moses.

Everyone, open your eyes, be delivered from the Law, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus and embrace God's Love and Mercy for you.......

Know God's heart.......He wants you to know Him and to love Him. Love is a choice. We're NOT robots. We're not pre-programmed. God HAD to give us a choice - Life or Death. He wants us to choose Life. We can only choose Life if we choose to love God. We can only love God if we know Him. READ YOUR BIBLE! SEEK TO KNOW GOD! He loves you......

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, born of a virgin. That virgin was saved in childbirth because when the Savior was born by passing through the birth canal of His virgin mother, our Savior broke her hymen, by so doing He entered into a BLOOD COVENANT with Mary. Then, He was wrapped in swaddling clothes and layed in a manger as The Lamb of God that came to take away the sin of the world with His Blood......

Joseph and Mary bring Yeshua/Jesus to the temple at 8 days old to be circumcised - Blood Covenant with The Father. (By 8 days old, He had entered into a Blood Covenant with God and Man).

At 12 years old, Yeshua/Jesus is found in the temple because it was time to be about His Father's business. At 30 years old, He comes to the River Jordan, which means judgment. John the Baptist doesn't want to baptize Yeshua/Jesus because John says, "I need You to baptize me." YET, Yeshua/Jesus says, "No. Baptize Me so that we might FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The WORD of GOD was FULFILLING ALL of the Law in a Human Body - All the works REQUIRED by the Law of Moses was being done by Yeshua/Jesus and recorded in His Human Body FOR US!

At the same time, Yeshua/Jesus was fulfilling all that the Prophets had spoken about the Messiah. After 3 1/2 years, He took Peter, James and John with Him up the Mount of Transfiguration and met with Moses (The Law) and Elijah (The Prophets) to be examined........Yeshua/Jesus was transfigured and even The Father gave His approval of His Son - His One and Only Lamb of God - The One and Only PERFECT Sacrifice FOR US! THERE IS NO OTHER!

After the Mount of Transfiguration, there was just ONE LAST Work of The Law and The Prophets that had to be fulfilled and recorded in His Human Body..........The Penalty for NOT fulfilling The Law.... Death.

Just as Yeshua/Jesus was examined by Moses and Elijah as Righteous - Perfect Human Fulfillment of The Law and the Prophets, He also had to be examined as The Lamb of God WITHOUT Blemish...... He was brought before Jew and Gentile to be examined and was found to be WITHOUT any work that required His death yet, He was crucified.

Thus, fulfilling the Final Work that The Law REQUIRED FOR US......DEATH. On the cross, His final words from The Word of God that was made flesh and dwelt among us was......"It is finished."

On the Third Day, He rose from the dead and is ALIVE FOREVERMORE! He promises us the same....ETERNAL LIFE for ALL those that will BELIEVE....

STOP thinking you have to DO ANYTHING for Salvation! Yeshua/Jesus DID IT ALL!

It's time to KNOW HIM and to LOVE HIM....this is the only work for us to do.....BUT, NOT to maintain or keep our salvation!

SALVATION IS GOD'S GIFT TO US, RECEIVE FORGIVENESS AND EMBRACE HIS LOVE AND MERCY FOR YOU, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus, amen.

Thanks for your input, Lafftur! If Christians were to keep the law of Moses the book of Acts and all the epistles would be totally different. Paul's letters, for example, would mainly focus on how Gentiles should keep the Law.

Law pushers claim that the Law will be in force until the end of times. (For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled ). But they forget that they can't remove a single jot or tittle from it. Ask them how many Mitzvot do they keep out of the original 613 and you'll be surprised. They can't even name a few of them.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

All of us agree on Salvation is not from our works. All of us agree that our works don't maintain salvation. It is that last sentence that produces the gulf.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST ABOLISHED THAT MINISTRY. The law of Moses, the law of condemnation and death had to be removed for the ministry of Jesus. THE OLD COVENANT EXPIRED, JESUS BROUGHT US THE NEW.

WE ARE IN THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, CAN'T BE DONE, EVEN IF YOU TRIED AND SCREAMED THAT IS WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO IT STILL COULDN'T BE DONE. IT DOES NOT EXIST EXCEPT IN YOUR MIND.

NayborBear · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

I can't see, how ones who believe there is an age to come, are, or can be so oblivious that there was an age before this one we are in the latter days of now.

eek: Now, I'm a Jehovahs Witness!

)

That "everlasting" is a "period in eternity" of which God, in His good pleasure, created for His children as a "means" of "proofing" His children!

That the "difference" between "everlasting" and "eternal" is as stated here!
Matthew 24
35 Heaven and earth (everlasting/s) shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (eternal)

If "ALWAYS" in OSAS, means "everlasting?" Like the Priests in the O.T. "rolled forward" the people's sin, until the "next" time for sacrifice? I'll buy that!

But, if "ALWAYS" in OSAS means "eternal?" Someone's in "La La land."

But? This is why there is no condemnation for those who are "in Christ."

It's the "pulling the wool over sheeples eyes", concerning this, I have issues with.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

WE DON'T DO IT TO RECEIVE, BUT TO GIVE. GET IT. WE ARE NOT LOOKING TO GET ANYTHING "FROM GOD" FOR IT. WE HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED THE GIFTS. WE ARE NOT WORKING TO KEEP THEM, WE ARE WORKING TO DO WHAT WE WERE TOLD TO DO. GO TEACH BAPTISE. YOU CAN NOT TEACH GOD WITHOUT HIS LAWS. IF YOU TRY YOU ARE TEACHING WHAT "YOU" BELIEVE NOT THE TRUTH OF GOD.

WE DON'T DO IT TO RECEIVE, BUT TO GIVE. COULD YOU REPEAT THAT BACK TO ME SO I WILL KNOW YOU GET THIS ONE POINT.

I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU THINK. BUT LIKE YOU SAID, EG AND E9 AND WHO EVER ELSE DON'T ALL BELIEVE THE SAME WELL WE ALL DO. WE WORK FROM A PLACE OF LOVE AND RESPECT AND WANTING TO FIND GODS LOST CHILDREN AND BRING THEM HOME. CANT BE DONE WITHOUT THE LAW OF GOD.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

NOT THE ENDING OF THE LAW.

We are made righteous through Christ. Christ making us righteous, doesn't destroy the law.

SimpleGardner · Aug 9, 2019

NayborBear said:

I have said before, and I mean nothing hateful of condescending by it, but if someone who is not called tries to "get in" like the guest at the wedding who did not have a white robe (signifying righteousness, or Torah abiding) on, then that would be as far as they could possibly get! The called would be given the robe of Christs Righteousness, which they would maintain spotless by being obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit unto Good works and obedience. If they were never truly called then perhaps they would simply be there but not covered! Not sure, but I am trying to reconcile it all.....

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

Only in your perception, not a part of our reality, really. I would swear but God says not to, Yea, Yea or Nay Nay but that doesn't seem to be working. Yet, I follow those "suggestions?". You think that's silly though I know.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

I believe salvation can be lost. Doesn't mean I don't believe it is a gift. Doesn't mean I work to keep it. Once again those are your beliefs of a belief you don't believe, which is weird that you are so sure that is how we believe, when we don't. Who actually has that belief you believe we have I have no idea. It would be so nice if instead of telling us what you think we believe you would listen and learn the truth of what we do. I think communicating about truths would be so much more productive even if we don't agree. We spend so much time telling you NO, WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT but you can't here. You have been told maybe by others I don't know but it is not about the ones you are talking to now. Not that I have seen or read myself.

notuptome · Aug 9, 2019

DeighAnn said:

You fail to consider that Christ has purchased you from the slave market of sin. You do not have the authority to throw away your salvation. Only your new Master who is Christ can determine what will happen to you. Your old master sin is now removed from the transaction. 1 Cor 6:19-20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

Marcelo said:

LAW PUSHERS LIKE THE ONE WHO SAID "FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONT TITTLE SHALL IN NO WIS PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED" YOU KNOW THE "LAW PUSHER" WHO SAID THAT? OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. YES, JESUS WAS A LAW PUSHER. More than that. Jesus was a COVENANT CHANGER. I told Grandpa and I told someone else I will have to go see who, and please don't believe me go study for your self,

THE LAW OF MOSES IS NO MORE. PLEASE HEAR ME MARCELO, IN ORDER FOR JESUS, THE LAW PUSHER, to bring in the NEW COVENANT OF LIFE AND FORGIVENESS, (o death where is thy sting?) THE OLD COVENANT OF CONDEMNATION AND DEATH HAD TO BE REMOVED, NOT THAT IT WASN'T SET TO EXPIRE ANYWAY (it was only good up until John).

We are born under Grace. We can not be under the law as it does no longer exist. We can not be bound by something that isn't. All these break one break them all, break one die a sinner, EVERY TIME THAT IS SAID, IT IS NEGATING WHAT JESUS DID FOR US. IT IS EFFECTIVELY SAYING JESUS DID NOT DO WHAT HE SAID HE DID AND WHAT DOES THAT MAKE JESUS? .

TO SUGGEST THAT ANY ONE IS UNDER THE LAW, OR THAT THEY BREAK ONE BREAK THEM ALL and they are condemmed to death, IN THIS DAY AND AGE IS PUTTING FORTH FALSE DOCTRINE. we ARE GOING TO BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT we TEACH.

DeighAnn · Aug 9, 2019

notuptome said:

You fail to consider that Christ has purchased you from the slave market of sin. You do not have the authority to throw away your salvation. Only your new Master who is Christ can determine what will happen to you. Your old master sin is now removed from the transaction. 1 Cor 6:19-20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Free will.

Yahshua · Aug 9, 2019

Grandpa said:

You've avoided every question I asked you and doubled down based on an English translation of 1 word. So since I lack understanding can you answer just 3 questions below (in purple)?

----

Every truth in scripture is confirmed by a testimony of two or more witnesses.

Hebrews 10:15-17
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:

16 “THIS is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.”

17 Then He adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more

So based on this passage, the Holy Spirit himself says the new covenant is the law written in:

A) heart
B) mind

...that's the covenant promise, quoted verbatim from Jeremiah 31:33-34. No twisting. Notice the passage below...

But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts.

And I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.

For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”

But for Ezekiel 36:27, you said about the new covenant that...

"It didn't say anywhere that He would make you "want" to obey what you think you understand about the law." That is OBVIOUSLY NOT His Spirit that makes you want to work at your 'understanding' of the law."

But Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 10 literally say "THIS is the covenant..."

A) law written in heart
B) law written in mind

Question 1: So is the following true or false?

A) heart = place of wants & desires

B) mind = place of thoughts & understanding

-----

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Question 2: Again, you say (based on Ezekiel) that the promised Holy Spirit does not make you want to work at your understanding of the law. But then what does "teach" mean from the passages above?

-----

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Question 3: If the Holy Spirit; the Grace of Yah doesn't teach you about the law but "controls" your effort in obedience to it (as you believe "cause" to mean), how can a person ever sin, once the Holy Spirit is in them?

Do you understand what I'm asking here? Let me ask it a few ways so to make sure...

How is it ever possible for you or a partaker of the Holy Spirit to sin at all, or for the Galatians to fall back into bondage?

How can ANY believer EVEN TRY to backslide or profane if the Holy Spirit "CONTROLS" the believer's effort in obedience (instead of teaches them obedience and gives them the desire to do it)?

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 9, 2019

SimpleGardner said:

I kinda disagree in a couple ways.

Yes, the ministration/ministry written/engraved in stones was "glorious" (but is not the "much MORE glorious" referred to in the passage).

And it wasn't "all we had" (as humans, before Christ)... it seems Scripture says, "the Law was ADDED" (Gal3:19) and "the Law ENTERED" (Romans 5:20), and that "the Law, WHICH WAS four hundred and thirty years AFTER" another point in time (Gal3:17)... so not always in existence (when humans were). And it wasn't even given to "the Gentiles" ('who HAVE NOT the Law' Rom2:14).

And as for "now" ['in this present age [singular]'] (regarding believers/saints/those IN Christ [i.e. "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]), we now have "the law of the Spirit OF LIFE" (in Christ Jesus).

[and, the fruit OF the Spirit... against such there is no law]

SimpleGardner · Aug 9, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

I kinda disagree in a couple ways.

Yes, the ministration/ministry written/engraved in stones was "glorious" (but is not the "much MORE glorious" referred to in the passage).

And it wasn't "all we had" (as humans, before Christ)... it seems Scripture says, "the Law was ADDED" (Gal3:19) and "the Law ENTERED" (Romans 5:20), and that "the Law, WHICH WAS four hundred and thirty years AFTER" another point in time (Gal3:17)... so not always in existence (when humans were). And it wasn't even given to "the Gentiles" ('who HAVE NOT the Law' Rom2:14).

And as for "now" ['in this present age [singular]'] (regarding believers/saints/those IN Christ [i.e. "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]), we now have "the law of the Spirit OF LIFE" (in Christ Jesus).

[and, the fruit OF the Spirit... against such there is no law]

Okay, Some of what you mention is symantics the other was my bad. "We" present tense Grafted into the vine/tree are israel. But the rest stands.

Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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