Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[DeighAnn]

How some people claim they are persecuted for righteousness sake after they say they work at the law and a Christian corrects that wrong thinking.

You work at SAYING "work at the law" you BEING THE ONLY ONE TO use"WORK AT THE LAW' , we acknowledge and follow it and teach it. YOU NEED TO QUIT WORKING AGAINST THE LAW OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD We have received all the gifts you claim to have received. We all did that, in Christian 101. I don't know how many times you will be repeating that course but we are progressing past salvation WE ARE GOING ON UNTO PERFECTION, come with us won't you?

Here is a passage that might help you to realize that THE MESSAGE OF THE SALVATION GIFT FROM GOD is bottled milk, and it is time to work for Gods Word, you can rest when your flesh dies.

Everyone for partaking of milk is inexperience in the word of righteousness an infant for he is Heb 5:13
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (5342 phero to bear, carry, bring forth, make publicly known) not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment
Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
let us go unto perfection, NOT LET US go unto REST

 

[Jackson123]

Jesus not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil

Matt 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

After Being fulfil, is there any different?

I think so, we No longer need animal sacrifice, that easier, but some time harden


27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Seem to me we No longer require to follow the old law, but still require to follow the filfilment of the law.

Or new law, No longer make animal sacrifice, but still not to kill or adultery

 

[SimpleGardner]

I think the man loved his riches,

And he thought ke kept the law

And jesus tried to show hi how he did not (he was mistaken) because he loves his money more than he loved God.

Can you answer my question?

Let's try a new approach to getting you your answers. Similar to how I wrote my questions, you ask me yours in a yes or no fashion.

 

[Lafftur]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Hello Marcelo and everyone,

Our Lord, Savior and King - Yeshua/Jesus has won the victory for each and everyone of us! There is not one of us, not even Paul that could save us with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses HAD TO BE FULFILLED by a HUMAN BEING - The Word of God had to become flesh (HUMAN FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW) so that He could deliver ALL of us from The Law of Moses.

Everyone, open your eyes, be delivered from the Law, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus and embrace God's Love and Mercy for you.......

Know God's heart.......He wants you to know Him and to love Him. Love is a choice. We're NOT robots. We're not pre-programmed. God HAD to give us a choice - Life or Death. He wants us to choose Life. We can only choose Life if we choose to love God. We can only love God if we know Him. READ YOUR BIBLE! SEEK TO KNOW GOD! He loves you......

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, born of a virgin. That virgin was saved in childbirth because when the Savior was born by passing through the birth canal of His virgin mother, our Savior broke her hymen, by so doing He entered into a BLOOD COVENANT with Mary. Then, He was wrapped in swaddling clothes and layed in a manger as The Lamb of God that came to take away the sin of the world with His Blood......

Joseph and Mary bring Yeshua/Jesus to the temple at 8 days old to be circumcised - Blood Covenant with The Father. (By 8 days old, He had entered into a Blood Covenant with God and Man).

At 12 years old, Yeshua/Jesus is found in the temple because it was time to be about His Father's business. At 30 years old, He comes to the River Jordan, which means judgment. John the Baptist doesn't want to baptize Yeshua/Jesus because John says, "I need You to baptize me." YET, Yeshua/Jesus says, "No. Baptize Me so that we might FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The WORD of GOD was FULFILLING ALL of the Law in a Human Body - All the works REQUIRED by the Law of Moses was being done by Yeshua/Jesus and recorded in His Human Body FOR US!

At the same time, Yeshua/Jesus was fulfilling all that the Prophets had spoken about the Messiah. After 3 1/2 years, He took Peter, James and John with Him up the Mount of Transfiguration and met with Moses (The Law) and Elijah (The Prophets) to be examined........Yeshua/Jesus was transfigured and even The Father gave His approval of His Son - His One and Only Lamb of God - The One and Only PERFECT Sacrifice FOR US! THERE IS NO OTHER!

After the Mount of Transfiguration, there was just ONE LAST Work of The Law and The Prophets that had to be fulfilled and recorded in His Human Body..........The Penalty for NOT fulfilling The Law.... Death.

Just as Yeshua/Jesus was examined by Moses and Elijah as Righteous - Perfect Human Fulfillment of The Law and the Prophets, He also had to be examined as The Lamb of God WITHOUT Blemish...... He was brought before Jew and Gentile to be examined and was found to be WITHOUT any work that required His death yet, He was crucified.

Thus, fulfilling the Final Work that The Law REQUIRED FOR US......DEATH. On the cross, His final words from The Word of God that was made flesh and dwelt among us was......"It is finished."

On the Third Day, He rose from the dead and is ALIVE FOREVERMORE! He promises us the same....ETERNAL LIFE for ALL those that will BELIEVE....

STOP thinking you have to DO ANYTHING for Salvation! Yeshua/Jesus DID IT ALL!

It's time to KNOW HIM and to LOVE HIM....this is the only work for us to do.....BUT, NOT to maintain or keep our salvation!

SALVATION IS GOD'S GIFT TO US, RECEIVE FORGIVENESS AND EMBRACE HIS LOVE AND MERCY FOR YOU, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus, amen.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I assume you aren't kidding.

You serve and obey the Law?

And you come to a Christian site and expect no correction?

C'mon bro. You don't really consider a little correction to be chastisement do you?

I think all of us would agree that the Love, and Joy and reconciling ways of Jesus are so welcoming that we gravitate towards Him. I enjoy the Spirit of Jesus in so many of the people on here. I think you have noticed how I gravitate towards them.

Then there are others on here with the "ministry of condemnation". These are the ones I prefer to avoid.

This was precisely what Jesus’ disputes with the Pharisees was. He wanted to expose them as a failed ministry that only produced error and grief. I know some of you try to put a positive light on the Pharisees, but they were a legalistic, club of self-righteous snobs whose conformed to their manufactured interpretations of the law and the “tradition of the elders” (Matt 15:2). Just like you and EG and eb9 etc, until people acquiesce into complete conformity and uniformity they don't stand a chance in your club. And worst of all, you nag at them incessantly telling them, YOU ARE NOT WORTHY! YOU ARE NOT WELCOME! Again, "a ministry of condemnation" !

Your type of ministry is a ministry of manipulation! I think I have uses the analogy of a "spiritual baseball bat, with nails in it". That's the image your ministry presents in my heart and mind when I see your replies. That was the heavy-handed YOKE that the people were under when Jesus walked among us! No one could bear up under it! You're quick to use those citations of "yokes" to condemn the Torah but it wasn't the Torah, it was the Torah, manipulated, twisted, redefined by the Babylonian Talmud/Traditions of the Elders/Fathers that people could not bear up under! Even Jesus characterized their combination of Torah manipulation and "ministry of condemnation" in;

Mat 23:4 KJV For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Don't fool yourselves, you certainly cannot fool us, the Torah is as Paul characterized it is;

Rom 7:12 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Your ministry of condemnation cannot undo what the Holy Spirit has done in our hearts as far as our Love of Gods Laws goes, trust me! What you misinterpret as Judiazers are God Lovers! Wondering why someone who claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't Love God too!

So while you use the law to beat down others and delude yourselves that you have gained some form of power over us, we see you as pitiable especially when we consider the way Jesus lovingly restored the Torah to its intended used: FIRST) to show us sinners our need for a Savior; SECOND) to regulate evil/lawlessness in society; and THIRD) as the guiding/the lamp unto our feet for those of us who God has graciously saved. So what you used as a weapon against us, Jesus re-established as a guide to salvation, a guarantor of civil peace and a glorious guiding light to us who hunger and thirst after righteousness!

I don't know what to do for your tragic lack of joy and your manipulative "ministry of condemnation" except to continue to pray for you.

Bless YHWH! Know and Keep!

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hello Marcelo and everyone,

Our Lord, Savior and King - Yeshua/Jesus has won the victory for each and everyone of us! There is not one of us, not even Paul that could save us with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses HAD TO BE FULFILLED by a HUMAN BEING - The Word of God had to become flesh (HUMAN FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW) so that He could deliver ALL of us from The Law of Moses.

Everyone, open your eyes, be delivered from the Law, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus and embrace God's Love and Mercy for you.......

Know God's heart.......He wants you to know Him and to love Him. Love is a choice. We're NOT robots. We're not pre-programmed. God HAD to give us a choice - Life or Death. He wants us to choose Life. We can only choose Life if we choose to love God. We can only love God if we know Him. READ YOUR BIBLE! SEEK TO KNOW GOD! He loves you......

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, born of a virgin. That virgin was saved in childbirth because when the Savior was born by passing through the birth canal of His virgin mother, our Savior broke her hymen, by so doing He entered into a BLOOD COVENANT with Mary. Then, He was wrapped in swaddling clothes and layed in a manger as The Lamb of God that came to take away the sin of the world with His Blood......

Joseph and Mary bring Yeshua/Jesus to the temple at 8 days old to be circumcised - Blood Covenant with The Father. (By 8 days old, He had entered into a Blood Covenant with God and Man).

At 12 years old, Yeshua/Jesus is found in the temple because it was time to be about His Father's business. At 30 years old, He comes to the River Jordan, which means judgment. John the Baptist doesn't want to baptize Yeshua/Jesus because John says, "I need You to baptize me." YET, Yeshua/Jesus says, "No. Baptize Me so that we might FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The WORD of GOD was FULFILLING ALL of the Law in a Human Body - All the works REQUIRED by the Law of Moses was being done by Yeshua/Jesus and recorded in His Human Body FOR US!

At the same time, Yeshua/Jesus was fulfilling all that the Prophets had spoken about the Messiah. After 3 1/2 years, He took Peter, James and John with Him up the Mount of Transfiguration and met with Moses (The Law) and Elijah (The Prophets) to be examined........Yeshua/Jesus was transfigured and even The Father gave His approval of His Son - His One and Only Lamb of God - The One and Only PERFECT Sacrifice FOR US! THERE IS NO OTHER!

After the Mount of Transfiguration, there was just ONE LAST Work of The Law and The Prophets that had to be fulfilled and recorded in His Human Body..........The Penalty for NOT fulfilling The Law.... Death.

Just as Yeshua/Jesus was examined by Moses and Elijah as Righteous - Perfect Human Fulfillment of The Law and the Prophets, He also had to be examined as The Lamb of God WITHOUT Blemish...... He was brought before Jew and Gentile to be examined and was found to be WITHOUT any work that required His death yet, He was crucified.

Thus, fulfilling the Final Work that The Law REQUIRED FOR US......DEATH. On the cross, His final words from The Word of God that was made flesh and dwelt among us was......"It is finished."

On the Third Day, He rose from the dead and is ALIVE FOREVERMORE! He promises us the same....ETERNAL LIFE for ALL those that will BELIEVE....

STOP thinking you have to DO ANYTHING for Salvation! Yeshua/Jesus DID IT ALL!

It's time to KNOW HIM and to LOVE HIM....this is the only work for us to do.....BUT, NOT to maintain or keep our salvation!

SALVATION IS GOD'S GIFT TO US, RECEIVE FORGIVENESS AND EMBRACE HIS LOVE AND MERCY FOR YOU, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus, amen.

Greetings Lafftur,

I agree ,the Law was never there to “save us”, No, it was there to guide us. Not to be contentious with you, but you must be careful to acknowledge that the Creator Himself said;

Deu 30:11 NIV Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

It is important not to frame the Laws of God as the enemy and something to be delivered from. Scripture speaks to our being delivered from evil/sin/death. Our hearts had become evil, not the Law! Lest we forget, even Paul said;

Rom 7:12 NIV So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

To put the onus on the law is “scape goating” the Law. That is a form of deception that should not be allowed.

The Law is beautiful in that is shows us our need for our Savior!
The Law is beautiful in that is serves to maintain Civil Order so we may live in peace!
The Law is beautiful in that it is a lamp unto the feet of those who have been saved by Grace!

Do not denigrate the Law Lafftur. It has become a practice here on the forum and it is simply an affront to The Giver of The Law!

I hope you will receive my words of clarification/correction in the spirit they are given.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's try a new approach to getting you your answers. Similar to how I wrote my questions, you ask me yours in a yes or no fashion.

Why is it so hard for you to answer questions? If your not going to answer any yourself why bother asking others?

A yes or no answer in this case does not help. It does not help you understand what I am saying it does not help me try to help you see what I am trying to say so you can respond one way or the other

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Why is it so hard for you to answer questions? If your not going to answer any yourself why bother asking others?

A yes or no answer in this case does not help. It does not help you understand what I am saying it does not help me try to help you see what I am trying to say so you can respond one way or the other

Are you immortal? Do you sin?
If you sin you are not immortal, or else you would be sent to hell fire.
There is no forgiveness for immortals if they sin, only eternal torment.

The apostles said time and again, we stumble, we fail, but if we confess, Jesus will forgive.
I wonder if people understood the standard of immortality, being God dooms them within
a short period of time.

Immortality is a kind of blasphemy, if one is not Jesus or perfect. It is equating perfection
with evil behaviour so desecrating the giver of immortality.

So maybe those who claim the spirit upgrade to immortality should face the justice of
such a promotion. Or in mercy and grace should there ignorance be overlooked and repentance
accepted before judgement falls?
Is a sinning immortal really a demon, equivalent to a fallen angel?
One should take great care and not take Gods word and add things from arrogance when faced with
such an awesome powerful God who is slow to anger, abounding in love, but can be provoked.

8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.
Psalm 103

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Jesus not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil

Matt 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

After Being fulfil, is there any different?

I think so, we No longer need animal sacrifice, that easier, but some time harden


27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Seem to me we No longer require to follow the old law, but still require to follow the filfilment of the law.

Or new law, No longer make animal sacrifice, but still not to kill or adultery

GOD Loves righteousness and does everything righteously so don’t think that because HE fulfilled the law that we are to continue under law.

GRACE and TRUTH came by JESUS and grace If It Is grace means that It Is free but work If It Is work Is earned and something Is expected when It Is worked for.

The law Is someone doing/working something In order to not offend the law.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your ministry of condemnation cannot undo what the Holy Spirit has done in our hearts as far as our Love of Gods Laws goes, trust me! What you misinterpret as Judiazers are God Lovers!

Now, perhaps you are using the bolded phrase in your own way, to make a certain point... but doesn't this phrase [^ bold] (as used in the Bible) refer to that which was written/engraved in stone, like in this passage:

2 Corinthians 3 -
The Glory of the New Covenant
(Exodus 34:29-35)

7 Now if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters on stones, was produced in glory, so as for the sons of Israel not to be able to look intently into the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face which is fading, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory? 9 For if glory was in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory! 10 For even that having been made glorious has not been glorified in this respect, on account of the glory surpassing it. 11 For if that which is fading away was through glory, much more is that remaining in glory!

12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness, 13 and not as Moses would put a veil over his face for the sons of Israel not to look intently into the end of that fading away.

14 But their minds were hardened; for until the present day, the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, not being lifted, which is being removed in Christ. 15 But unto this day, when Moses shall be read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 But whenever one shall have turned to the Lord, the veil is taken away.


IOW, it says that that "ministration/ministry of condemnation" was "glorious" (/"glory in [it]"... but is not the "much MORE" one), then doesn't the "ministration/ministry of condemnation" (equivalent of that which was engraved in stone) sound like it was a good thing ("glorious"/"glory in [it]"), something God intended/gave to Israel (at that time, back then)? rather than how you seem to be using the phrase, here? (I could just be misunderstanding you... and it could be that your use of the word "YOUR ministry of condemnation" brings the idea "forward, in time," if you will, in your own application of the point you are attempting to convey here... jmho, not sure... )

 

[DeighAnn]

Hello Marcelo and everyone,

Our Lord, Savior and King - Yeshua/Jesus has won the victory for each and everyone of us! There is not one of us, not even Paul that could save us with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses HAD TO BE FULFILLED by a HUMAN BEING - The Word of God had to become flesh (HUMAN FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW) so that He could deliver ALL of us from The Law of Moses.

Everyone, open your eyes, be delivered from the Law, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus and embrace God's Love and Mercy for you.......

Know God's heart.......He wants you to know Him and to love Him. Love is a choice. We're NOT robots. We're not pre-programmed. God HAD to give us a choice - Life or Death. He wants us to choose Life. We can only choose Life if we choose to love God. We can only love God if we know Him. READ YOUR BIBLE! SEEK TO KNOW GOD! He loves you......

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, born of a virgin. That virgin was saved in childbirth because when the Savior was born by passing through the birth canal of His virgin mother, our Savior broke her hymen, by so doing He entered into a BLOOD COVENANT with Mary. Then, He was wrapped in swaddling clothes and layed in a manger as The Lamb of God that came to take away the sin of the world with His Blood......

Joseph and Mary bring Yeshua/Jesus to the temple at 8 days old to be circumcised - Blood Covenant with The Father. (By 8 days old, He had entered into a Blood Covenant with God and Man).

At 12 years old, Yeshua/Jesus is found in the temple because it was time to be about His Father's business. At 30 years old, He comes to the River Jordan, which means judgment. John the Baptist doesn't want to baptize Yeshua/Jesus because John says, "I need You to baptize me." YET, Yeshua/Jesus says, "No. Baptize Me so that we might FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The WORD of GOD was FULFILLING ALL of the Law in a Human Body - All the works REQUIRED by the Law of Moses was being done by Yeshua/Jesus and recorded in His Human Body FOR US!

At the same time, Yeshua/Jesus was fulfilling all that the Prophets had spoken about the Messiah. After 3 1/2 years, He took Peter, James and John with Him up the Mount of Transfiguration and met with Moses (The Law) and Elijah (The Prophets) to be examined........Yeshua/Jesus was transfigured and even The Father gave His approval of His Son - His One and Only Lamb of God - The One and Only PERFECT Sacrifice FOR US! THERE IS NO OTHER!

After the Mount of Transfiguration, there was just ONE LAST Work of The Law and The Prophets that had to be fulfilled and recorded in His Human Body..........The Penalty for NOT fulfilling The Law.... Death.

Just as Yeshua/Jesus was examined by Moses and Elijah as Righteous - Perfect Human Fulfillment of The Law and the Prophets, He also had to be examined as The Lamb of God WITHOUT Blemish...... He was brought before Jew and Gentile to be examined and was found to be WITHOUT any work that required His death yet, He was crucified.

Thus, fulfilling the Final Work that The Law REQUIRED FOR US......DEATH. On the cross, His final words from The Word of God that was made flesh and dwelt among us was......"It is finished."

On the Third Day, He rose from the dead and is ALIVE FOREVERMORE! He promises us the same....ETERNAL LIFE for ALL those that will BELIEVE....

STOP thinking you have to DO ANYTHING for Salvation! Yeshua/Jesus DID IT ALL!

It's time to KNOW HIM and to LOVE HIM....this is the only work for us to do.....BUT, NOT to maintain or keep our salvation!

SALVATION IS GOD'S GIFT TO US, RECEIVE FORGIVENESS AND EMBRACE HIS LOVE AND MERCY FOR YOU, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus, amen.

I don't think there is a single person in this thread who believes we have to do anything for Salvation. I believe that every single person understood that salvation was a gift from God before they were even baptized. I believe that is one of the very reasons we start our walk towards perfection. I don't think the person you were the day you found God should be the person God finds you as. PROGRESS towards perfection, REPENTANCE, a change of the inner man. The ACTS of the Apostles. Upon accepting the GIFTS of God we are given commands TO FOLLOW. It is BECAUSE of His love and Mercy we can do nothing else. WE are moved. We have to give GOD PLEASURE. Following His commandments gives Him pleasure especially because we know we are already saved so it can't hurt. Go teach baptize. If we weren't working for God His words wouldn't be going anywhere.
The beginning of this flesh life. Cain didn't follow Gods commands for giving of his "firstfruits" God didn't respect. Able followed Gods command and did and unto Abel He had respect. Way up there in first lessons to follow. Do it Gods Way. When Jesus says "I come in the volume of the Book and a ton of the Book has to do with us following laws, Him doing it right and fulfilling them make s me want to do it all the more. God was well pleased in His Son and He worked all the time. He did it the hard way and by doing so gave me a super simple easy way. If I can't even do that much what am I worth? You are right, I am not a robot. So God must want more from me that to mirror the love He gives back. He must want original love that only I can choose to give Him. I love God and I love the WAY of the Life of God and I know that because I love His Laws too!!! God Bless you and your love of the Lord.

 

[posthuman]

Psalms 32:8-10
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will guide you with My eye.
Do not be like the horse [or] like the mule,
[Which] have no understanding,
Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle,
Else they will not come near you.
Many sorrows [shall be] to the wicked;
But he who trusts in the LORD, mercy shall surround him.

What is the bit and what is the bridle of the one without understanding, who does not trust in the Lord, who does not follow His eye?

 

[DeighAnn]

Your type of ministry is a ministry of manipulation! I think I have uses the analogy of a "spiritual baseball bat, with nails in it". That's the image your ministry presents in my heart and mind when I see your replies. That was the heavy-handed YOKE that the people were under when Jesus walked among us! No one could bear up under it! You're quick to use those citations of "yokes" to condemn the Torah but it wasn't the Torah, it was the Torah, manipulated, twisted, redefined by the Babylonian Talmud/Traditions of the Elders/Fathers that people could not bear up under! Even Jesus characterized their combination of Torah manipulation and "ministry of condemnation" in;

Nailed it

 

[DeighAnn]

GOD Loves righteousness and does everything righteously so don’t think that because HE fulfilled the law that we are to continue under law.

GRACE and TRUTH came by JESUS and grace If It Is grace means that It Is free but work If It Is work Is earned and something Is expected when It Is worked for.

Don't worry one bit about us. We love the entire WORD. We DO NOT think, as a matter of fact, WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW, we are NOT UNDER the law. We were never under the law. The law of Moses was done AWAY with approx 2000 yrs before we were even born. WE ALSO KNOW the law of Moses ENDED, MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE TO EVEN BE UNDER. WHY DON'T YOU? HOW HAVE YOU MISSED SUCH AN IMPORTANT THING? THE LAW OF MOSES IS NO MORE. HASN'T BEEN FOR 2000 YS. WE WERE BORN AND RAISED IN THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE. YOU WERE TO. YOU NEED TO GRAB A HOLD OF THAT. PLEASE, TELLING ANYONE THEY ARE UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES IS FALSE DOCTRINE PLAIN AND SIMPLE. PLEASE STOP.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Now, perhaps you are using the bolded phrase in your own way, to make a certain point... but doesn't this phrase [^ bold] (as used in the Bible) refer to that which was written/engraved in stone, like in this passage:

2 Corinthians 3 -
The Glory of the New Covenant
(Exodus 34:29-35)

7 Now if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters on stones, was produced in glory, so as for the sons of Israel not to be able to look intently into the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face which is fading, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory? 9 For if glory was in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory! 10 For even that having been made glorious has not been glorified in this respect, on account of the glory surpassing it. 11 For if that which is fading away was through glory, much more is that remaining in glory!

12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness, 13 and not as Moses would put a veil over his face for the sons of Israel not to look intently into the end of that fading away.

14 But their minds were hardened; for until the present day, the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, not being lifted, which is being removed in Christ. 15 But unto this day, when Moses shall be read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 But whenever one shall have turned to the Lord, the veil is taken away.


IOW, it says that that "ministration/ministry of condemnation" was "glorious" (/"glory in [it]"... but is not the "much MORE" one), then doesn't the "ministration/ministry of condemnation" (equivalent of that which was engraved in stone) sound like it was a good thing ("glorious"/"glory in [it]"), something God intended/gave to Israel (at that time, back then)? rather than how you seem to be using the phrase, here? (I could just be misunderstanding you... and it could be that your use of the word "YOUR ministry of condemnation" brings the idea "forward, in time," if you will, in your own application of the point you are attempting to convey here... jmho, not sure... )

Interesting point. So the Law, the way I laid it out now has the three functions:

1. The Law is beautiful in that is shows us our need for our Savior!
2. The Law is beautiful in that is serves to maintain Civil Order so we may live in peace!
3. The Law is beautiful in that it is a lamp unto the feet of those who have been saved by Grace!

Number one, put "glorious" in place of "beautiful" and of course the preface or the place we found ourselves prior to "our Savior" is "condemnation/condemned"

Number One and Two were all we had before Jesus our redeemers work!

My reference to "Minsitry of condemnation" refers not to that action of the Law in this case but the action of manipulating men who condemn those who testify of Number three! This is the "ministry of righteousness" that the Law now plays a part as guide in the sanctification process that Paul is speaking about in the verses you quoted above.

What once could only condemn the sinner in that the Spirit of the Law was unavailable is now able to guide in the transformation of the sinner who is now saved by grace, because we now have the Holy Spirit which enables use what once only condemned us and now is a guide in our sanctification process.

 

[NayborBear]

I think all of us would agree that the Love, and Joy and reconciling ways of Jesus are so welcoming that we gravitate towards Him. I enjoy the Spirit of Jesus in so many of the people on here. I think you have noticed how I gravitate towards them.

Then there are others on here with the "ministry of condemnation". These are the ones I prefer to avoid.

This was precisely what Jesus’ disputes with the Pharisees was. He wanted to expose them as a failed ministry that only produced error and grief. I know some of you try to put a positive light on the Pharisees, but they were a legalistic, club of self-righteous snobs whose conformed to their manufactured interpretations of the law and the “tradition of the elders” (Matt 15:2). Just like you and EG and eb9 etc, until people acquiesce into complete conformity and uniformity they don't stand a chance in your club. And worst of all, you nag at them incessantly telling them, YOU ARE NOT WORTHY! YOU ARE NOT WELCOME! Again, "a ministry of condemnation" !

Your type of ministry is a ministry of manipulation! I think I have uses the analogy of a "spiritual baseball bat, with nails in it". That's the image your ministry presents in my heart and mind when I see your replies. That was the heavy-handed YOKE that the people were under when Jesus walked among us! No one could bear up under it! You're quick to use those citations of "yokes" to condemn the Torah but it wasn't the Torah, it was the Torah, manipulated, twisted, redefined by the Babylonian Talmud/Traditions of the Elders/Fathers that people could not bear up under! Even Jesus characterized their combination of Torah manipulation and "ministry of condemnation" in;

Mat 23:4 KJV For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Don't fool yourselves, you certainly cannot fool us, the Torah is as Paul characterized it is;

Rom 7:12 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Your ministry of condemnation cannot undo what the Holy Spirit has done in our hearts as far as our Love of Gods Laws goes, trust me! What you misinterpret as Judiazers are God Lovers! Wondering why someone who claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't Love God too!

So while you use the law to beat down others and delude yourselves that you have gained some form of power over us, we see you as pitiable especially when we consider the way Jesus lovingly restored the Torah to its intended used: FIRST) to show us sinners our need for a Savior; SECOND) to regulate evil/lawlessness in society; and THIRD) as the guiding/the lamp unto our feet for those of us who God has graciously saved. So what you used as a weapon against us, Jesus re-established as a guide to salvation, a guarantor of civil peace and a glorious guiding light to us who hunger and thirst after righteousness!

I don't know what to do for your tragic lack of joy and your manipulative "ministry of condemnation" except to continue to pray for you.

Bless YHWH! Know and Keep!

I shall try and explain something I believe you already are aware of, concerning The PERFECT "LAW OF lOVE." that many people in here subscribe to, and as you have so well stated, "beat you over the head" with it, until their "perceived enemy" has been successfully "Tarred and Feathered" & "Runned Out of Town On their Rail!" (I have seen this time and time again in BDF)
First off IF their "Perfect Law of Love" was so Perfect? Why would it include the "disclaimer" MULTITUDE of sin?
Would it not, I mean, if their law of love is PERFECT? Would it not "cover" EVERY SIN?
This is thier "Tribal Elder" "modus operendi!" These people are NOT Priests! Although, they envision themselves as such.
Granted! It is MUCH EASIER, but not very beneficial, to "move forward" in the belief, that Love covers EVERY sin!
Because it takes EFFORT and "spiritual Sacrifice/s", in the "seeking OUT" that/those sin/s that their "perfect law of love" DOESN'T COVER!
It is these efforts, that are viewed as "working AT the law!" aka "WORKS for salvation", "WORKS for MAINTAINING salvation."
In this "tribal elder" mindset? They are allowing the Father to advance "THIS FAR!" yet? "NO FURTHER!"
This is the result!
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

This is why the words that EXPOSE this TO them, are like "water on a duck's back" to them!
IOW?
Matthew 13
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Any good "tiller of the ground", would work at making the wayside into good ground. To be even more fruitful!

I "think" we are pretty much on the same page in regards to this "perfect law of love."

2 Chronicles 7
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

There is more INFERRED in the word "land" here, yanno? Like "man?" Are we not made from "clay/dust/LAND?"

 

[SimpleGardner]

I shall try and explain something I believe you already are aware of, concerning The PERFECT "LAW OF lOVE." that many people in here subscribe to, and as you have so well stated, "beat you over the head" with it, until their "perceived enemy" has been successfully "Tarred and Feathered" & "Runned Out of Town On their Rail!" (I have seen this time and time again in BDF)
First off IF their "Perfect Law of Love" was so Perfect? Why would it include the "disclaimer" MULTITUDE of sin?
Would it not, I mean, if their law of love is PERFECT? Would it not "cover" EVERY SIN?
This is thier "Tribal Elder" "modus operendi!" These people are NOT Priests! Although, they envision themselves as such.
Granted! It is MUCH EASIER, but not very beneficial, to "move forward" in the belief, that Love covers EVERY sin!
Because it takes EFFORT and "spiritual Sacrifice/s", in the "seeking OUT" that/those sin/s that their "perfect law of love" DOESN'T COVER!
It is these efforts, that are viewed as "working AT the law!" aka "WORKS for salvation", "WORKS for MAINTAINING salvation."
In this "tribal elder" mindset? They are allowing the Father to advance "THIS FAR!" yet? "NO FURTHER!"
This is the result!
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

This is why the words that EXPOSE this TO them, are like "water on a duck's back" to them!
IOW?
Matthew 13
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Any good "tiller of the ground", would work at making the wayside into good ground. To be even more fruitful!

I "think" we are pretty much on the same page in regards to this "perfect law of love."

2 Chronicles 7
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

There is more INFERRED in the word "land" here, yanno? Like "man?" Are we not made from "clay/dust/LAND?"

Hey NayborBear,

Some very good points in there!

Thank You!

And lest we forget the Perfect Law of Love" is not a replacement for the Torah, but a magnificent summation of the ENTIRE TORAH! You can read the Torah and recognize the Law of love in every letter!

SG

 

[Grandpa]

I think all of us would agree that the Love, and Joy and reconciling ways of Jesus are so welcoming that we gravitate towards Him. I enjoy the Spirit of Jesus in so many of the people on here. I think you have noticed how I gravitate towards them.

Then there are others on here with the "ministry of condemnation". These are the ones I prefer to avoid.

This was precisely what Jesus’ disputes with the Pharisees was. He wanted to expose them as a failed ministry that only produced error and grief. I know some of you try to put a positive light on the Pharisees, but they were a legalistic, club of self-righteous snobs whose conformed to their manufactured interpretations of the law and the “tradition of the elders” (Matt 15:2). Just like you and EG and eb9 etc, until people acquiesce into complete conformity and uniformity they don't stand a chance in your club. And worst of all, you nag at them incessantly telling them, YOU ARE NOT WORTHY! YOU ARE NOT WELCOME! Again, "a ministry of condemnation" !

Your type of ministry is a ministry of manipulation! I think I have uses the analogy of a "spiritual baseball bat, with nails in it". That's the image your ministry presents in my heart and mind when I see your replies. That was the heavy-handed YOKE that the people were under when Jesus walked among us! No one could bear up under it! You're quick to use those citations of "yokes" to condemn the Torah but it wasn't the Torah, it was the Torah, manipulated, twisted, redefined by the Babylonian Talmud/Traditions of the Elders/Fathers that people could not bear up under! Even Jesus characterized their combination of Torah manipulation and "ministry of condemnation" in;

Mat 23:4 KJV For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Don't fool yourselves, you certainly cannot fool us, the Torah is as Paul characterized it is;

Rom 7:12 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Your ministry of condemnation cannot undo what the Holy Spirit has done in our hearts as far as our Love of Gods Laws goes, trust me! What you misinterpret as Judiazers are God Lovers! Wondering why someone who claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't Love God too!

So while you use the law to beat down others and delude yourselves that you have gained some form of power over us, we see you as pitiable especially when we consider the way Jesus lovingly restored the Torah to its intended used: FIRST) to show us sinners our need for a Savior; SECOND) to regulate evil/lawlessness in society; and THIRD) as the guiding/the lamp unto our feet for those of us who God has graciously saved. So what you used as a weapon against us, Jesus re-established as a guide to salvation, a guarantor of civil peace and a glorious guiding light to us who hunger and thirst after righteousness!

I don't know what to do for your tragic lack of joy and your manipulative "ministry of condemnation" except to continue to pray for you.

Bless YHWH! Know and Keep!

No one says you are not welcome. None of us are worthy so that includes you. But you are the one who declines to be a part of the "ministry". You may have not noticed but EG, gb9 and others (and me) don't all believe the exact same.

But what we do agree on are the obvious things. Like Salvation is not from our works. Since Salvation is not from our works then maintaining Salvation is not from our works either. Therefore, once saved always saved.

But you mention Pharisees and the ministry of Condemnation. That's the side YOU HAVE CHOSEN. You have chosen to be a Pharisee. You have chosen to be part of the ministry of Condemnation. What is stopping you from coming to Christ and receiving Rest? Have I ever said that you CAN'T come to Christ? By all means, come to Christ. Be a part of the ministry of Life and Righteousness.


You that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? Nope. Obviously not. You refuse to see that the Law is the ministry of Condemnation and Death. Why? Because of your desire to work at it.

If you were really intent on keeping the law and not just on working at it in your own understanding and strength you would have asked God for His Help. If you would have done that you would have known where ALL your blessings and provision are.

How is it that you think they come from your work at the law?

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Do you understand these questions and what they are asking?

Was it your work of the law that gave you the Spirit? No. It was not.

It is Christ who gives His Spirit.

Having begun in the Spirit do you go back to the law and to the flesh? Only if you are sincerely confused.


This is really simple stuff. The only way to not get it is to not WANT to. To follow the error of the wicked in turning from Christ and the Holy Spirit and following your own imagination of what you think the law says.

Romans 10:2-4
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


This stuff really POPS after you come to Christ. You're like "WHOA, that was me before I came to Christ". I was ignorant of Gods Righteousness and I was trying to be righteous by my understanding and work at the law.

But when I came to Christ that all ended. Instead of working for my righteousness, which didn't make me righteous anyways, the Lord Jesus MADE me righteous. He did what I never could.


Keep praying. I think you're getting closer!!

 

[Grandpa]

I don't think there is a single person in this thread who believes we have to do anything for Salvation. I believe that every single person understood that salvation was a gift from God before they were even baptized. I believe that is one of the very reasons we start our walk towards perfection. I don't think the person you were the day you found God should be the person God finds you as. PROGRESS towards perfection, REPENTANCE, a change of the inner man. The ACTS of the Apostles. Upon accepting the GIFTS of God we are given commands TO FOLLOW. It is BECAUSE of His love and Mercy we can do nothing else. WE are moved. We have to give GOD PLEASURE. Following His commandments gives Him pleasure especially because we know we are already saved so it can't hurt. Go teach baptize. If we weren't working for God His words wouldn't be going anywhere.
The beginning of this flesh life. Cain didn't follow Gods commands for giving of his "firstfruits" God didn't respect. Able followed Gods command and did and unto Abel He had respect. Way up there in first lessons to follow. Do it Gods Way. When Jesus says "I come in the volume of the Book and a ton of the Book has to do with us following laws, Him doing it right and fulfilling them make s me want to do it all the more. God was well pleased in His Son and He worked all the time. He did it the hard way and by doing so gave me a super simple easy way. If I can't even do that much what am I worth? You are right, I am not a robot. So God must want more from me that to mirror the love He gives back. He must want original love that only I can choose to give Him. I love God and I love the WAY of the Life of God and I know that because I love His Laws too!!! God Bless you and your love of the Lord.

I truly don't understand this thinking.

How were you saved? Were you just sitting there and it hit you, wow I'm saved?

Or did you have to come to Christ in order to be saved?

If you TRULY received Salvation and you TRULY KNOW that it wasn't from your own work...

What has caused you to think that you're future walk into perfection is done some other way?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[SimpleGardner]

But what we do agree on are the obvious things. Like Salvation is not from our works. Since Salvation is not from our works then maintaining Salvation is not from our works either. Therefore, once saved always saved.

Rev 3:1-3 KJV And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. (2) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. (3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Not OSAS here!

Do you not believe Revelations is Inspired by the Holy Spirit, spoken by Jesus Himself?

It would help to know if you do not.