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"day" and "year" --
Isaiah 34:8 -
For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isaiah 61:2 -
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isaiah 63:4 -
For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
[So, Lk4:18-19 (during Jesus' earthly ministry, first advent) mentions only "the acceptable year of the Lord" and leaves off [the part about] "the day [singular] of vengeance of our Lord"... yet, in Lk21:22 (in the 70ad section, vv.12-24a with 24b following on from there), v.22 says, "these be the DAYS [PLURAL] of vengeance..."... so it seems "the DAYS [plural] of vengeance" refer to the events surrounding 70ad, whereas "the DAY of vengeance of our Lord" refers to the "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" that Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c (7:3) does, as well as Lk18:8[/17:26-37], and Rom16:20 "shall bruise Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [<--this verse in the CONTEXT of speaking to/for/about "the Church which is His body" being in a distinct location, doing the 1Cor6:3[14] thing... but concurrently with that "future, specific, limited time period" (i.e. the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period) which will unfold upon the earth (the 7-yrs-worth of which will involve "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO)]
"The Day of the Lord" is what the Thessalonians [incorrectly] believed "IS PRESENT" (v.2). This was REASONABLE for them to believe and be convinced of, because of their PRESENT, ONGOING, NEGATIVE circumstances they were ENDURING, 2Th1:4. Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO:
ONE THING must take place "FIRST".
V.3 says, "that day [the DOTL from v. 2, NOT the event from v.1! this is the grammatically-correct way to read this passage; and to define the DOTL biblically, not how present day Amill-teachings and other teachings incorrectly define it!]… that day [the DOTL earthly time-period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [the EVENT of v.1!] AND [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed [<--this is at SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs, parallel to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]; parallel Dan9:27a[26]; parallel 2Th2:7b-8a; parallel 2Th2:9a "whose coming").
"The Day of the Lord" is not a "singular 24-hr day" but INCLUDES the 7-yr trib [<--it ARRIVES at the START of THAT], His 2nd Coming to the earth, AND the entire 1000-yr reign. ALL THREE.
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Sounds to me, TDW, like you are more inclined in the "Preserving" of the Saints, then the "Perservering", of the Saints.
IOW? Content with relegating one's Spititual "perfecting" to some later period of eternity. Such as after one's flesh becomes fertilizer.
As far as not usually replying to posts from you? To be truthfully honest? And, I'm not sure you are purposely doing it, or can't help yourself, as you seem to like what it is you are saying.
But? I can't make heads or tails of what your are trying to say.
If you could "break it down" into more simpler terms, with, your take of what this means or, that means?
I believe would make for a more fruitful discussion.
But, that's just me!
IOW? Content with relegating one's Spititual "perfecting" to some later period of eternity. Such as after one's flesh becomes fertilizer.
As far as not usually replying to posts from you? To be truthfully honest? And, I'm not sure you are purposely doing it, or can't help yourself, as you seem to like what it is you are saying.
But? I can't make heads or tails of what your are trying to say.
If you could "break it down" into more simpler terms, with, your take of what this means or, that means?
I believe would make for a more fruitful discussion.
But, that's just me!
All I'm saying is that "the Rapture" ('rapture-truths' [the doctrine of 'the rapture']) pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN), not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)... though they are indeed also "saints" [/saved].
So, we are to "correctly apportion" the word of truth, and not [mis-]apply everything "willy nilly"...(as though they are all referring to one thing, like lumping it all together into one mish-mash of mush ; we are to distinguish the things that differ... so as to "see" clearly).
[P.S. no pre-tribber I know says there will not exist "saints" in the trib years. There WILL! They just are never identified as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... and they will enter the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age]
; we are to distinguish the things that differ... so as to "see" clearly).[P.S. no pre-tribber I know says there will not exist "saints" in the trib years. There WILL! They just are never identified as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... and they will enter the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age]
"The Day of the Lord" is not a "singular 24-hr day" but INCLUDES the 7-yr trib [<--it ARRIVES at the START of THAT], His 2nd Coming to the earth, AND the entire 1000-yr reign. ALL THREE.[/QUOTE]
The Day of the Lord is 1000 yrs and it begins when He returns as lord of Lords and King of Kings the day of vengeance, to rule with a rod of Iron, when Satan is bound, when all are changed. It is all so super simple. No need to complicate it by adding to the 2nd coming. If Jesus comes to "rapture" then it would be the 3rd coming, coming not the 2nd. If Jesus comes to "rapture" then there is no need to be partners in tribulation with John. If Jesus is coming to rapture there is no need for "oil in our lamps to make it till the Bridegroom comes at "midnight" Jesus coming as a thief in the night, coming at midnight, these "nights" are Satans time. He is of the night. We gather to Him AFTER THE SON OF PERDITION is revealed. He doesn't come before then. He already came before then and that was AS EMMANUEL GOD with us.
THERE is in heaven, right now, everyone who has been born of flesh since the 6th day. There is an army of more souls in heaven than there are on earth right now. Gods people from Job on have been through tribulations, and persecutions, and wars, and everything. WHAT is so special about the people on earth now? Do they seem more "holy" than at any other time in the last 8000 yrs? Overcome, Overcome, Overcome.....Hints big hints, being revealed in revelation. To WHOM are the gifts given? those who overcome. There cant be a wedding. The bridegroom doesn't show up until midnight.
Take all the "verses" that you believe support a "pre trib" rapture. Fit them all in with the second coming of the Lord. the one that happens after "the abomination of desolation stands where he ought not claiming to be God, the one where the Lord comes and ends Satans tribulation by binding him and throwing him into the pit for the 1000 ys, the one where the resurrection of the dead happens, the one where all who are alive and remain are changed, the one at 777, the one where the two witnesses stand up having been dead in the streets 3 1/2 days rise, the one that happens after the elect have been given up to death, the one the starts the millennium, the one where the sheep and goats are separated, the one where were every knee shall bow, the one where we will reign and be priests with Him 1000 ys, the and when His foot touches the mount a valley is made, the one where the heavens host are dissolved,
If there is one that doesn't fit, if there is a single verse that can't be explained by the second coming, I will..... I can't say anything here because well, you will see.
The only people who go to heaven are those who have died. And the two witnesses who will come back to die. God created the earth to be inhabited. Gods favorite place in the universe is on the earth. The Lords Day will happen on the earth. The lake of fire will happen on the earth. The new city will come down to the earth.
Try for a moment to get out of the "letter" of the Word, and just read the story the His story it is telling. All the "monikers" will fit, I promise.
Gods wrath doesn't happen until after the tribulation of satan. And God does not have any wrath towards those who love and obey Him. Always remember the fiery furnace. They didn't even smell like smoke. God is for real, for real.
Do you know why the Hour of Temptation will not be tempting for us? Because we do not find Satan to be tempting because we have been told who he really is, what he really wants, and what is going to happen to him. We have on the Gospel Armor. His lies and his deceptions do not fool us. We see right through him. We will see the miracles and we will say "Yep, God said this was coming and look at all this going on around us" the world has gone mad. You think they "worship" leaders and rulers and actors and sports people and rock stars now? Can you imagine what it is going to be like when ACTUAL supernatural miracles are happening? What do you imagine Jesus to look like, to sound like, to do? It will seem like heaven on earth for real. The mothers and fathers are so positive they will turn you in for not "jumping into the worship with the rest of the world" they are all so convinced.
But we know it is all one big fat lie. There is no temptation. Do you have enough oil in your lamp and in reserve so that you can make it through that dark dark day (time) without having to go out into the world to buy and sell?
When Jesus returns will you have through "idolatry" been impregnated with Satans false doctrine. Will you have been deceived so that when Jesus returns you are no longer "a virgin" in the worship of God. Will you be with child and give be giving suck? (having not only allowed your self to be deceived but taking and participating in the system he has set up?
He is coming for a virgin bride. How could he find one if they all got taken away before? Who will be deceived if all "the believers" have been taken away?
The acceptable year of the Lord was standing right in front of them, that is why Jesus could read that part, He had to close the book at that point because "the day of vengeance" was yet future. It is yet future still.
I will pray Gods will be done.
My people are foolish, we are sottish. God knows his audience. If it was ALL about dissecting the word, God would have like 37 people. Remember, Jesus came to get us out of "the letter" and into the Spirit. Sometimes we must let go of what our flesh knows and let that Spirit lead. It is really really hard sometimes. It starts with a ton of humility, humble prayer, and quietness and to listen and let God arrange all that knowledge. Remember, we are dumb and stupid, it is very straight forward and simple.
We are here. The two witness arrive. Satan comes, deceives the world, kills the witnesses, Jesus comes, flesh age ends 1000 years of no evil influence for all those who never knew or were deceived, at the end satan loosed, Great throne judgment, lake of fire, New age where no evil will be. Super simple. Might be a few rough moments but look at the rewards!!
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[QUOTE="pottersclay, post: 3991667, member: 226182"]So am I to understand that God will punish the wicked along with the righteous? I mean post tribers believe that.
Am I also to believe that we are to endure 3and one half yrs of persecution from all sides untill his return? Mid tribers believe that.
So the wrath of God that was poured out on Jesus for our sakes was and is a prelude for what we must endure in the last days?
So the holiness of Christ and Christ alone is now non exclusive since the saints also endured the wrath of God and lived to tell in the last days?[/QUOTE]
Line one proves that you do not know what we believe and or what you are talking about.....get your facts state before you bloviate about what we believe.......
Am I also to believe that we are to endure 3and one half yrs of persecution from all sides untill his return? Mid tribers believe that.
So the wrath of God that was poured out on Jesus for our sakes was and is a prelude for what we must endure in the last days?
So the holiness of Christ and Christ alone is now non exclusive since the saints also endured the wrath of God and lived to tell in the last days?[/QUOTE]
Line one proves that you do not know what we believe and or what you are talking about.....get your facts state before you bloviate about what we believe.......
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I would say the whole quote is false......especially the bolded......The timing of the resurrection/change has ZERO bearing or significance concerning God's plan of salvation.........
Nehemiah6 said:
Sounds good, but that is totally misleading. The pre-tribulation Resurrection/Rapture is a Bible doctrine. It was first given by Christ Himself. And it has tremendous significance in God's plan of salvation.
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Fly to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Eastern Syria and preach JESUS.............I would lay odds they will accommodate any believer that wishes to lose their head for the cause of Christ......just saying......but I digress and agree......we wait long enough and it will happen in the West before JESUS comes.....
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I suggest you study a bit...........and then explain the names Abaddon and Apolloyon and why he is identified as such.......and then describe the MAN of SIN that is empowered by SATAN and describe how cutting people's heads off is not tribulation?
For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
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...and Daniel wasn't anywhere near that fiery furnace. Why was that? Remember where he was, instead?
[Again, no pre-tribbers are saying there won't exist "saints" in/during the tribulation period years. There WILL. "Noah," as I said in an earlier post, is a "type" of those (saints) who will exist during the trib years (and coming to faith WITHIN those years), Matt24:36-51 / Lk17:26-37, etc...)]
[Again, no pre-tribbers are saying there won't exist "saints" in/during the tribulation period years. There WILL. "Noah," as I said in an earlier post, is a "type" of those (saints) who will exist during the trib years (and coming to faith WITHIN those years), Matt24:36-51 / Lk17:26-37, etc...)]
[quoting Gaebelein, on Daniel 2]
"The great man image is the prophetic symbol of the “times of the Gentiles.” This expression “The times of the Gentiles” is not found in the book of Daniel, but it is a New Testament phrase. Our Lord used it exclusively. In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in. The times of the Gentiles started with the Babylonian captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The glory of the Lord departed from Jerusalem. The other great prophet of the captivity, Ezekiel, beheld the departure of the Shekinah. […]"
[AND... still quoting further]
"Historical Events ([chpts] 3-6)
The four chapters [chpt 3-6] which follow the great dream of Nebuchadnezzar are of a historical character. They do not contain direct prophecies, but record certain events which transpired during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, his successor and grandson Belshazzar, and Darius, the Mede. [...]
[...]
"These four chapters then give us historical events. Each has a prophetic meaning, though direct prophecy is not found in them.
"These chapters describe the moral conditions which held sway during the two first world empires; they indicate prophetically the moral conditions which continue to the end of the times of the Gentiles. Five things may be traced in these four chapters: The moral characteristics of the times of the Gentiles; what will happen at the close of these times; the faithful remnant in suffering; their deliverance and the Gentiles acknowledging God, as King and the God of heaven."
[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed inserts mine]
"The great man image is the prophetic symbol of the “times of the Gentiles.” This expression “The times of the Gentiles” is not found in the book of Daniel, but it is a New Testament phrase. Our Lord used it exclusively. In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in. The times of the Gentiles started with the Babylonian captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The glory of the Lord departed from Jerusalem. The other great prophet of the captivity, Ezekiel, beheld the departure of the Shekinah. […]"
[AND... still quoting further]
"Historical Events ([chpts] 3-6)
The four chapters [chpt 3-6] which follow the great dream of Nebuchadnezzar are of a historical character. They do not contain direct prophecies, but record certain events which transpired during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, his successor and grandson Belshazzar, and Darius, the Mede. [...]
[...]
"These four chapters then give us historical events. Each has a prophetic meaning, though direct prophecy is not found in them.
"These chapters describe the moral conditions which held sway during the two first world empires; they indicate prophetically the moral conditions which continue to the end of the times of the Gentiles. Five things may be traced in these four chapters: The moral characteristics of the times of the Gentiles; what will happen at the close of these times; the faithful remnant in suffering; their deliverance and the Gentiles acknowledging God, as King and the God of heaven."
[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed inserts mine]