Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

2 Peter 3:15-17
15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him.

16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by **the error of the lawless** and fall from your secure standing.


What is the error of the wicked or the error of the lawless as defined by Peter?

What is wickedness or lawlessness?

Looking at;

2Pe 3:17 KJV Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

and now with Strongs numbers shown:

2Pe 3:17 KJV+ YeG5210 therefore,G3767 beloved,G27 seeing ye know these things before,G4267 bewareG5442 lestG3363 ye also, being led away withG4879 theG3588 errorG4106 of theG3588 wicked,G113 fall fromG1601 your ownG2398 stedfastness.G4740


Note the word "wicked" as defined by Thayers Bible Dictionary:

G113
ἄθεσμος
athesmos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who breaks through the restraint of law and gratifies his lusts
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5087 (in the sense of enacting)
Citing in TDNT: 1:167, 25
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
wicked, 2
2Pe_2:7, 2Pe_3:17

Note: this word is the same Greek word in 2 Peter 3:17 also translated wicked where it referred to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

A beleiver cannot allow themselves to be persuaded that Righteousness is obedience to some nebulous concept of "something good", that "Good" are the commandments of Jesus, especially the letters in Red and as the Holy Spirit leads the Entire OT, as He inspired/s those too!

To what degree one allows themselves to reject any of Gods words is the same degree they reject God.

 

[Grandpa]

That's not what Peter says. That's what Grandpa says.

What is the error of the wicked or the error of the lawless as defined by Peter?

Its people who think that their work at the law makes them law "keepers". That is the error of the wicked. The error of the lawless.

People who work at the law in their own imagination thinking they obey it.

Its what Peter says you just can't hear it. Or don't want to hear it.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here's some from Paul to help with your misunderstanding of what Peter says;

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Peter is agreeing with Paul. Peter says that the unlearned and unstable wrestle with Paul the same way they wrestle with all the other scriptures.

If Peter disagreed with Paul and thought that the error of the wicked was everyone NOT WORKING at the law he would have said so.

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul tells us over and over that the Law, the 10 commandments, are NOT the way. He calls people who are Christian that are wanting to go back to the law, foolish.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Now Peter saying the SAME THING AS PAUL;

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


So what is the error of the wicked/lawless? Its several things.
Its turning away from the Liberty that is in Christ and going back to the yoke of bondage.
Its being foolish and starting in the Spirit and then turning away and attempting to be made perfect by your own will and strength.
Its attempting to work at the law thinking you can perfect yourself becoming a clanging gong not understanding what you say or what you affirm.

And what is the solution for this??? Peter TELLS YOU. He doesn't say work hard at the law. He doesn't CONTRADICT Paul.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[NayborBear]

Are you saying that the commandments in Deuteronomy were not laws?

"Conditions of a Contract"/ "Law?" between God, and in this case the Nation of Israel? 6 of one, half dozen of another!

If you wished, wanted, desired, or expected, God's blessings, for you, or your crops and livestock, your family, and their children, including the "Corporate Entity" you lived in and among, in this case Deuteronomy's "NATION of Israel?
One should WANT to keep up one's end of the bargain.

What transpired, was that "the Priesthood", at that time, became corrupted! And, it would be very much akin to what "tax collectors" were like during Messiah's "time on earth. In the "demanding" of more portion FOR THEMSELVES, then, the "conditions of the contract" had stated. IOW? Placing an "harder burden" on the people, and LESSOR on themselves. And then, calling THESE DEMANDS, "THE LAW!" "That MUST BE OBEYED!"

In the Holy Priesthood itself? As we can read, this MISREPRESENTATION of God, and "His Conditions" BETWEEN Him, and the "Nation of Israel" BECAME "null and VOID!" In "present day" terms? The "Separation of Church and State?" Grew TOO WIDE! The "POINT?" Had been LOST! The anger, bitterness, and resentment, for "THE LAW", as it had become? Had become in the "people's hearts", as well as the hearts and souls, and spirits of the Priesthood? Just a "going through the motions", while their hearts were "at the golf course", or "at some party", or, at the "lions club meeting", or "chamber of commerce meeting", or mason's/shriner's/moose/elks lodge! Just about ANYWHERE ELSE, EXCEPT God!

Should any of this sound familiar? It's because the "spirit of INSTEAD OF Christ" has been around a long, LONG time! Of course, back in O.T. days? This may have been referred to as the "spirit of INSTEAD OF God!"

 

[Grandpa]

Looking at;

2Pe 3:17 KJV Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

and now with Strongs numbers shown:

2Pe 3:17 KJV+ YeG5210 therefore,G3767 beloved,G27 seeing ye know these things before,G4267 bewareG5442 lestG3363 ye also, being led away withG4879 theG3588 errorG4106 of theG3588 wicked,G113 fall fromG1601 your ownG2398 stedfastness.G4740


Note the word "wicked" as defined by Thayers Bible Dictionary:

G113
ἄθεσμος
athesmos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who breaks through the restraint of law and gratifies his lusts
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5087 (in the sense of enacting)
Citing in TDNT: 1:167, 25
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
wicked, 2
2Pe_2:7, 2Pe_3:17

Note: this word is the same Greek word in 2 Peter 3:17 also translated wicked where it referred to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

A beleiver cannot allow themselves to be persuaded that Righteousness is obedience to some nebulous concept of "something good", that "Good" are the commandments of Jesus, especially the letters in Red and as the Holy Spirit leads the Entire OT, as He inspired/s those too!

To what degree one allows themselves to reject any of Gods words is the same degree they reject God.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

A believer cannot allow themselves to be led away with the error of the wicked. Thinking that their Righteousness comes from their imagined obedience to the law.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

There is only One solution to becoming Perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

It is not studying the scriptures and trying to obey everything you think you need to obey. As if you could!!

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Even as Peter tells you in that same chapter.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[DeighAnn]

Its people who think that their work at the law makes them law "keepers". That is the error of the wicked. The error of the lawless.

People who work at the law in their own imagination thinking they obey it.

The cure for this is to Grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ. Not falling from our steadfastness in the Lord.

I don't "work at the law" that is a term law tossers use. The law is within me. The law works in me. I don't deny the law. I believe the law was written within me so that I could not deny it. It is not "work" YOU THINK IT IS WORK. You need to call it work because "works" are also considered bad because you think that people are "working towards their salvation" like they can't figure out it is a gift, just like you figured out it is a gift. But because you do not want to be "responsible" for your sins, you must get rid of the law, or consider it dead because the law of Moses is dead. WHICH I AGREE WITH. THE LAW OF MOSES IS DEAD. I just understand that the law of the kingdom of God is what was EXPECTED TO COME FROM THE SHADOW. The shadow didn't disappear. The schoolmaster taught FOR A REASON. We weren't taught all about it so that when Jesus came there would be "NOTHING" it was a foreshadow of "SOMETHING" THIS IS all just the most basic of common sense. I am willing to bet that you can't write what my beliefs are about the law still. You can't comprehend what I believe because it does no suit you.

1 I believe Jesus gave us commandments we are to abide by and I believe when we don't
"IT IS SIN" I believe this New Covenant was brought about by the blood of Christ to aid us in being better people. I do not believe I am made better through osmosis, I believe it is a conscience effort.
2. There is no more law of Moses, Jesus hung the law of Moses on the 2 commandments, there fore when I say the law is in me and I follow the law, given by Jesus, and the law of Moses works within me because they are written upon my heart and mind.
3. I do not 'WORK" at the law. I know that you can't comprehend that because I have said it so many times it is like telling a big black hole that sucks the information in but nothing comes out. You must say I "do" but I don't. I accept that God expects me to fully abide by it and I am forever grateful that it abides within me.
4. I believe a shadow of things to come, means something is coming.
5 I believe when the school master is done teaching, you were taught something and when the "something" arrives that you were taught to do, you don't act like it doesn't exist, you put your skills to work.
6 I believe the law Jesus brought was a law of life and forgiveness and paid heavily to give me that gift for which I am eternally grateful.
7 I am also eternally grateful for the common sense the wisdom and knowledge of God gives me to "see and hear" the things of God and to love all He has blessed me with in this life.


In conclusion
No more law of sin and death once called law of Moses, the Old Covenant REPLACED by Jesus law of kingdom of God, life and forgiveness, the New Covenant, for which I am eternally grateful

A person who loves God doesn't "WoRK" at the law, they live gloriously, the law within them.

I am eternally grateful for the Law and for the schoolmaster and the shadow of what was to come as they all proclaimed Jesus.

I understand YOU refuse to acknowledge me as an individual and you only see me as an "opponent of your theology" and as such can not see or hear the truths I tell, and as such have no love or respect for me whatsoever, as I don't exist to you.

What I don't understand is how you call someone who loves the law of God, lawless and wicked, and someone who denies the law of God as lawful.




















z

 

[DeighAnn]

sorry, this is for deighann, I grabbed the wrong post.

you asked what God said. God the Father said of the Son " hear Him ", on the Mount of Transfiguration , in the presence of Moses ( the Law) and Elijah ( the Prophets ). are you putting the Words in Red above all other Scripture? if no, you are not obeying God.

if you ignore what God the Father said to Moses in Lev. 26 about who is under the Mosaic Covenant, then you are not honoring His Words.

so. when you ask " what does God say", ask yourself if you are doing it, or just going with your opinion.

Did God say
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Matthew 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Matthew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Matthew 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[DeighAnn]

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

So then You took this sentence and decided that because "righteousness" doesn't come by the law, it is good for nothing? MAYBE ALL THE sentence was saying was "righteousness" doesn't come by the law. Is righteousness all there is for you? You don't think that there is maybe a lot more about the law then to attain your righteousness?

 

[gb9]

Did God say
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Matthew 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Matthew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Matthew 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

yes, of course. this is the gold standard of Christian behavior. living up to this should be our goal everyday.

now, do we? no we don't . that is why us Christians depend on and trust Christ for salvation, instead of relying on our ability to live up to the standards.

cause, you see, if you actually use the proper definition of sin, it to miss the mark, fall short of a standard , as James said, know to do good and not do so.

so, you see, if you ever get out of the judeaizer mindset, you will see that sin is much, much more than breaking the Law.

oh, and once again, no Sabbath mentioned here. not needed for salvation through faith in Christ.

 

[NayborBear]

Hello gb9,

Couldn't help but notice the "exclusive" language they, they, and their. You have made it clear where we stand relative to you.

You might take the time to consider if you are sounding like the Pharisee in this parable:

Luk 18:9-14 NIV To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: (10) "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. (11) The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. (12) I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' (13) "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' (14) "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

I will do the same.

SG

I "applaud" this response. As it sounds so much like "boasting AGAINST the branches!"

It "grieves" me that Israel, aka God's Holy Priesthood "fell" so far out of way, as to God having to DIVORCE Israel?
Just as it "grieves" me that God, HAD to send Jesus Christ, to be born of flesh, and endure, all the trials and tribulations that ALL "born of water", are here to endure, in the PROVING that, it CAN BE DONE!

Something to be said concerning God's knowing the "end...from the beginning!"

That's why I always "wonder" about believers who "confidently, almost to the point of arrogantly" say "I've read the BACK of the Book!" "God WINS!"

Because the scribes & pharasee's BELIEVED THAT VERY THING!

To which I believe is reflected in my postings:

They WERE 50% correct with that remark!

 

[DeighAnn]

yes, of course. this is the gold standard of Christian behavior. living up to this should be our goal everyday.

now, do we? no we don't . that is why us Christians depend on and trust Christ for salvation, instead of relying on our ability to live up to the standards.

cause, you see, if you actually use the proper definition of sin, it to miss the mark, fall short of a standard , as James said, know to do good and not do so.

so, you see, if you ever get out of the judeaizer mindset, you will see that sin is much, much more than breaking the Law.

oh, and once again, no Sabbath mentioned here. not needed for salvation through faith in Christ.

I have no idea about this fixation you have with the "Sabbath". Jesus got rid of any specific holy day or sabbath and we rest in Christ everyday, and the rest of it I know nothing about and please do not tell me. Sin is transgression, miss the mark (the law) fall short of a standard (the law) to know good and to not and to do good.
That gold standard is the law. When God gives a command or sets a direction or gives us advice we really should follow, those are the laws of Gods Kingdom. Those are what we fall short of attaining, yet never quit trying because if you never try you will never get there. We proceed towards perfection.

You see me in this "Judeaizer" mindset, what ever that is by todays standard. I take it because I take what Jesus says literally, and follow it, and proclaim it, and teach it, that makes me one. I am really good with that. I like knowing that no matter what "your thoughts are or my thoughts are" stealing is a crime to God. I acknowledge, I proclaim it, I teach it, I more than love it. NOT STEALING, is not an issue. I don't even ever want to steal. Never. If it was Gods will for me to have it, I would. If I were to take something that didn't belong to me, it would cause me more pain and frustration than it could ever be worth. I like knowing that those who do steal, who don't repent, will be called to judgement. I don't like knowing that, I love knowing that. I love Gods laws not only because I like following them but I like those who don't being held accountable. I like all sides of Gods laws. The only part I don't like, is being called names because of it. I like everyone being held to the same standards.
What was once hard to follow, and took a lot of repentance and forgiveness to get to, has become my nature. Without the laws of the kingdom of God, how would I have known where to go or what to strive for? How would I have known what Jesus did? How could I have given proper gratitude to Him for the sacrifice? It all comes from and through the law. They are not just words, They are not just rules. They are to help me to "refine" my spirit, to become a better person everyday, to practice obedience to God and His kingdom so when I arrive I am ready to be put into service, for His Will.

I may see dying somewhat different that most but here is what I see. When this silver cord parts and my flesh goes back to the dust from where it came, I step into my spiritual body and am with the Lord. My spirit and my soul, the person I am, that is the person I will be. That is the image I was created in in the flesh and that is the person I will be in my celestial body. I have come a very long way. What I once was, through the help of the law, and repentance and forgiveness and prayer and study of the Word and the Comforter holding me many a day and night, I am basically unrecognizable. I am progressing towards perfection. If I didn't do it through my own effort, I would have remained the same. Do I think that makes God happy? Yes I do. Do I think when I arrive already versed and obedient to the Lord it will make me more useful, yes I do. But lets just say I am wrong. What have I lost? NOTHING. I have become a better soul. My spirit is in much better shape. I want God to be happy that He wanted me. Is that so bad? I work towards who I will be when I am found in front of God. Not just because of all He gives me, but because I want to look Him in the eye and have Him say, Well done, my good and faithful servant.

 

[SimpleGardner]

There is no argument at all;

There is only one way to have fellowship with God or to Love God:

Scripture provides NO OTHER WAY to do so except to know and keep His commandments! Why would anyone want to have it any other way? Any relationship begins with "Knowing" someone!

So, if a man chooses to obtain mercy for his sins through grace by imputed righteousness which we all must do, but then disregards the Son and The Father by ignoring the leading of the Holy Spirit to "know and keep" the Laws. Then what is left of that man? If he says he has fellowship with The Son and The Father;

1Jn 1:6 KJV If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 

[NayborBear]

Seek and ye shall find, those buried treasures are well worth the seeking.

You can't do that, DeighAnn!

As methinks you will be accused of "works for salvation", or "works in the maintaining" of your salvation!

In the midst of the "salvation is by Grace THROUGH faith ALONE" crowd!

The "earnest coveting", & the "diligently seeking" of "Higher Spiritual Gifts", is certainly NOT A MANDATE! Nor, is it ENCOURAGED!

And WOE to those who do!

And, it's not because I don't think, nor believe that the "body of Christ" is a "many membered" body. No! Not at all!

But, THIS is what is seen! Time and time again!
1 Corinthians 12
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the SAME God which worketh all in all.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

But yet? REJECTED!

It's as though Christ's words? On which HANGS ALL the law and the Prophets, has been taken away! To be placed on Christ ALONE! And just as "the "law" was pointing TO Christ? Christ was trying to POINT "back TO His Father!" -smh

 

[Yahshua]

Its people who think that their work at the law makes them law "keepers". That is the error of the wicked. The error of the lawless.

People who work at the law in their own imagination thinking they obey it.

Its what Peter says you just can't hear it. Or don't want to hear it.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here's some from Paul to help with your misunderstanding of what Peter says;

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Peter is agreeing with Paul. Peter says that the unlearned and unstable wrestle with Paul the same way they wrestle with all the other scriptures.

If Peter disagreed with Paul and thought that the error of the wicked was everyone NOT WORKING at the law he would have said so.

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul tells us over and over that the Law, the 10 commandments, are NOT the way. He calls people who are Christian that are wanting to go back to the law, foolish.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Now Peter saying the SAME THING AS PAUL;

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


So what is the error of the wicked/lawless? Its several things.
Its turning away from the Liberty that is in Christ and going back to the yoke of bondage.
Its being foolish and starting in the Spirit and then turning away and attempting to be made perfect by your own will and strength.
Its attempting to work at the law thinking you can perfect yourself becoming a clanging gong not understanding what you say or what you affirm.

And what is the solution for this??? Peter TELLS YOU. He doesn't say work hard at the law. He doesn't CONTRADICT Paul.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

It's really simple. All one has to do is go back in the earlier chapters of the very same letter to see what Peter says about it. He explains what he means. It's not a long letter so I encourage you to read from chapter 1 through to the end and see what Peter says is the error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no argument at all;

There is only one way to have fellowship with God or to Love God:

Scripture provides NO OTHER WAY to do so except to know and keep His commandments! Why would anyone want to have it any other way? Any relationship begins with "Knowing" someone!

So, if a man chooses to obtain mercy for his sins through grace by imputed righteousness which we all must do, but then disregards the Son and The Father by ignoring the leading of the Holy Spirit to "know and keep" the Laws. Then what is left of that man? If he says he has fellowship with The Son and The Father;

1Jn 1:6 KJV If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

So the jews obeying Gods command automatically gave them fellowship with God?

Say it is not so?

Unbelievers can obey and never have fellowship with God. You want fellowship with God you have to first have your relationship restored (salvation) then walk in the spirit.

You can obey commands all day long and never even know God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Looking at;

2Pe 3:17 KJV Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

and now with Strongs numbers shown:

2Pe 3:17 KJV+ YeG5210 therefore,G3767 beloved,G27 seeing ye know these things before,G4267 bewareG5442 lestG3363 ye also, being led away withG4879 theG3588 errorG4106 of theG3588 wicked,G113 fall fromG1601 your ownG2398 stedfastness.G4740


Note the word "wicked" as defined by Thayers Bible Dictionary:

G113
ἄθεσμος
athesmos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who breaks through the restraint of law and gratifies his lusts
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5087 (in the sense of enacting)
Citing in TDNT: 1:167, 25
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
wicked, 2
2Pe_2:7, 2Pe_3:17

Note: this word is the same Greek word in 2 Peter 3:17 also translated wicked where it referred to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

A beleiver cannot allow themselves to be persuaded that Righteousness is obedience to some nebulous concept of "something good", that "Good" are the commandments of Jesus, especially the letters in Red and as the Holy Spirit leads the Entire OT, as He inspired/s those too!

To what degree one allows themselves to reject any of Gods words is the same degree they reject God.

So what does this say about those who REJECT Gods word which says even you even break one command your guilty as if you broke them all?

Or the word that says the purpose of the law (mosaic) was to lead us to christ. And after we come to christ, it has completed its job, Now we look at a new and better way?

Are those people following God? Or do they not reject Gods way? And his word?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Didn't seem like Gods Word was really that confusing.

Be Perfect Like God in Heaven is Perfect.

Its a direct compare and contrast.

If you think you can do it by working at the law in your own will and strength you are mistaken.

The law has yet to train them..

Thats why they can not understand, professing to be teachers of the law. They do not even understand the law. Just like the jews..

 

[NayborBear]

Thanks, Deade, but I don't understand why Law keepers are so reluctant to give us a list of effective ordinances. With such a list in hand it would be easier for us to understand what you guys teach.

I think one needs understand the meaning of the words cover & multitude, in how it is used in regards to "love COVERING a "multitude" of sin."
The term cover means forgiven by the blood of Christ! It DOES NOT mean ABSOLVED!
Meaning? At, or during, some point in "eternity?" One shall answer for 'em! Just as one shall answer for the sin/s of that which love doesn't forgive one for.
Which is why, at least in this one's Spiritual walk, and journeyings, in the finding out which, or what sin/s love doesn't cover becomes more profitable!
It is in doing so? One absolves oneself in one's "taking up of one's cross" oneself. As Christ points one in the Father's direction. aka the FIRST RESURRECTION!

Cuz you see? In these days we are not Corporate Israel! Although, many act as if we are! Yanno, "One size fits all!"
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The very fact that this is happening now? Should give one cause to wonder. "How can one be a Priest of God, and Jesus Christ for a thousand years, BEFORE the thousand years?

Which gives ME cause to wonder! How can one be a Priest of Jesus Christ and NOT be a Priest of God also?
Which, should probably involve a further study of the word Immanuel! As it is rendered more in the 3rd person, of God being WITH us, more then God IS Him!
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of NO reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

As far as which law or laws, or commandments, or conditions, one feels compelled to do?

Ask Him who sent Christ!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Didn't seem like Gods Word was really that confusing.
Be Perfect Like God in Heaven is Perfect.
Its a direct compare and contrast.
If you think you can do it by working at the law in your own will and strength you are mistaken.

Is Jesus suggesting in Him and His love working in our hearts, with the Holy Spirit, the law written on
our hearts and minds we can actually love our enemies, it truth from the heart?

Jesus could never say this to Israel, they were a rabble, barely to agree that God intended good for them
It took to the pharisees to develop a group who came close to desiring to obey the law.

But to believers, to those who know the cross, who walk broken, meek, humble, merciful, hungering for
righteousness, seeing Gods will come on earth as it is in heaven, letting love rule, the foundations are
laid for the highest love God demonstrated through the cross, to love ones enemies.

Now the word used by Peter was this, if the rich young man has failed

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle
than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
"Who then can be saved?"
Matt 19

Jesus is astounding because He puts seriously the impossible in front of us and says, you can do this
in Me. But it takes faith, the size of a mustard seed. But clearly many are so jaded and defeated such
things are impossible.

So this is why I ask. Jesus is the God of the cross and love, so the impossible made possible.
God bless you

 

[garee]

Is Jesus suggesting in Him and His love working in our hearts, with the Holy Spirit, the law written on
our hearts and minds we can actually love our enemies, it truth from the heart?

I would think it can if we are yoked with him as he works in us to both will and do his good pleasure .Without him we can do nothing.

Man looks on the outside. God looks on the new heart that he works to soften. If he has begun the good work in us we are all on a learning curve.

 

[DeighAnn]

I had to do this study today, as I am coming across as angry and hateful and not righteously indignant.
When I hear these thing I take them to heart. Stop. Step back. Seek in the Word, and find new knowledge, repent if necessary, and move on. Today I not only learned what "wrangling" was, I figured out what was causing my anger and hostility towards others. I thought I would share, once again, but with definitions of words I thought I knew but I had never grasped the full meaning of in reference to the Word. So, as I just copied and pasted, it is not to anyone on this thread, so don't take it personal. But take a minute to check it out, we are all found within.

Then I thought, Bless their hearts, they must not know. The difference between fruits of the Spirit AND works of the flesh ESPECIALLY IF HABITUAL The meanings down below in case some of the definitions were unknown. For the Lord

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest which are these, 4202 Adultery, fornication, 162 uncleanness, 766 lasciviousness, 1495 Idolatry, 5331 witchcraft, 2189 hatred, 2054 variance, 2205 emulations, 2372 wrath, 2052 strife, 1370 seditions, 139 heresies, 5355 envyings, murders, 3178 drunkenness, 2970 revellings, and such like of the which I tell you before as I have also told you in time past that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Murder, Adultery, Variance, Wrath, Strife? shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Did you know "rush along" is wrath? I mean it feels like wrath on this side of it, most certainly a work of the flesh. But don't you, as a saved person crucify the flesh so that it die? and so the Spirit lead? what is it called when there is no Spirit leading but only flesh works? It that someone who should be representing Christians? Should they be calling into question the "saved or not saved" state of another? Why don't you go back and read your posts from the last 3 days and count up how many flesh works you have compared to Spiritual Fruits. Or better yet you go count mine and I will go count yours

No matter what man has convinced you of, God will not be mocked.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS FAITH, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE against such there is no law AND SINCE THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST, SHOULD STRIVE FOR GOD TO SEE THESE IN OUR SOUL AND SPIRIT.

4202 porneia, fornication, whoredom, idolatry = properly a selling off, promiscuity of any type

162 akatharsia, uncleaness, impurity

766 aselgeia licentiousness, wantoness, outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence, lewdness

1495 eidololatria image worship service, worship of an image (idol)

5331 pharmakeia the use of medicine drugs or spells, magic, sorcery, enchantment

2189 echthra enmity, hostility, alienation

2054 eris strife, contention, wrangling, Literally quarrel, properly a rediness to quarrel, having a contentious spirit, affection for dispute

2205 zelos eagerness, zeal, rivalry, jealousy

2372 thumos passion, an outburst of passion, wrath, RUSH ALONG, passion driven behavior

2052 eritheia rivalry, hence ambition, the seekers of followers, carnal ambition, self seeking feud, faction

1370 dichostasia standing apart, dissension, division

139 hairesis choice, opinion, a self-chosen opinion, a religious or philosophical sect, discord or contention

5355 phthonos envy, a gruge , spite

3178 drunkenness

2970 a riotous party, revel

ENMITY the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something

HOSTILITY hostile behavior; unfriendliness or opposition.

ALIENATION the state or experience of being isolated from a group or an activity to which one should belong or in which one should be involved.

STRIFE angry or bitter disagreement over fundamental issues; conflict.

CONTENTION heated disagreement, an assertion, especially one maintained in argument.

WRANGLING engagement in a long, complicated dispute or argument

RUSH ALONG ?????

I did not know THERE WAS such a thing as wrangling. I do now. And so do you. I actually learned quite a bit and found myself once again, centered by the Word. I do so love the laws of God. As such I will put forth Gods Word, and attempt to no longer engage in long arguments or disputes. I will limit myself to 3. Please help me God.