What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[Magenta]

 

[posthuman]

Where did God's complexity come from?

you do not have an accurate concept of "God" if you suppose any of His attributes "came from" anywhere

 

[Spectrox]

Faith is based on things not seen.

But it is built by evidence.. It is not just blind.

But this doesn't really answer my questions.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raise in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

 

[Spectrox]

you do not have an accurate concept of "God" if you suppose any of His attributes "came from" anywhere

And how do you know that your conception of God is accurate?

 

[Spectrox]

And God finds it EXTREMELY ODD when someone claims that he is an atheist. Indeed God calls him "a fool".

All your objections are inconsequential. Why would anyone believe Philo over Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, unless he is bound and determined to reject the truth and believe the lie? Who says Philo wanted the truth?

No matter, looks like you have made up you mind, and you should be on an atheistic forum. Or a godless Communist forum, where you would be more comfortable.

How are my objections inconsequential? Just asserting that they are doesn't make it true. Who were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Real people who met Jesus or are they just the titles of the stories? Philo lived in Judea around the time of Jesus and he was a prolific historical writer. The Gospels were probably written 70CE to 100CE and weren't considered canon until Bishop Iraneus around 180CE. My questions are entirely reasonable. And what has Communism got to do with anything?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But this doesn't really answer my questions.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raise in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

What evidence do I have that Islam is true? What evidence is their that their book is from God?

There is much evidence that what is said in the bible is true. It is uch more believable.

Now would I believe the bible if raised on a muslim country and I had that pushed on me all my life, or out of fear of death? I can not answer.

But if you asking for a faith based on evidence. I could not be muslim,

 

[Spectrox]

In other words, you have no standard for morality. Therefore, your statement that you find certain actions in the Bible "immoral" is meaningless. It's fine to express it as your opinion, as in, "I find certain actions distasteful", but a standard for morality is above opinion, or it is not a standard at all.

As to why I believe as I do, I have chosen to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. I find the Bible internally consistent, consistent with the real world, and consistently reliable in my life. I have a two-way personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. God has answered prayer in my life. These things all confirm the truth of the gospel.

I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?

 

[kaylagrl]

I originally posted this message in the New Member Intro section but a member said I should post it here. So here goes...

Colloquially speaking I am an agnostic as I don't know whether or not a god exists. Technically I am an atheist as I don't believe any god claim I have heard. Although I used to be a Christian. I was brought up in the Church of England but properly self-identified as a Christian in my twenties and believed I was saved. I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians. Some things in the Bible stopped making sense to me. Some of the Bible was immoral, some of it was inconsistent and some of it was not credible. I prayed for answers but no answers came. I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge my beliefs as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it?

Have you ever talked to an atheist who became a Christian and asked them why they believe? There is a man named Lee Strobel who was in this very situation.He was an atheist and a journalist. When his wife became a Christian he got angry and decided to prove to her God doesn't exist. In his book series "The Case for Christ" he takes several books to answer questions about God, the Bible and science. It's something worth giving an honest look into. Since you've talked to one side why not try the other?

 

[Spectrox]

I believe everything in the Bible. I believe this way because it’s obvious that the universe had a designer and creator. That being the case, it makes sense that the creator would leave us with an owners manual.

Thanks for the reply. I used to believe the Owner's Manual idea. But I realised there are lots of different manuals out there. How do you decide which is most likely to be true?

 

[Spectrox]

To claim that you are a "weak atheist" because you're "not claiming that no Gods exist" is like a pregnant woman saying she's half pregnant because she's halfway through her pregnancy. She is not half pregnant … she is 100% pregnant.





Seems to me you appear to be like what Jesus described in Matt 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


You heard the Word and received it with joy but when confronted by "atheists and ex-christians" you had no root and, rather than turn and stand on the Rock (the Lord Jesus Christ), you were trapped in the shifting sands of those to whom you listened. Sad.






Hope/pray you continue to seek God and that you find Him.

I think your pregnancy analogy is weak. I am not asserting that God doesn't exist. I'm just not convinced that any God claim I've heard is correct. There are holes in these claims big enough to send Noah's Ark through.
A better analogy for my situation is the Gumball analogy. Let's say you put a massive jar of gumballs on the table in front of me and you claim there are an odd number of gumballs in the jar. Do I accept your claim? No, why should I? Does that therefore mean I assert that there are an even number of gumballs? No, of course not. The only way to get to the truth is to carefully pour the gumballs on to a tray and count them.

 

[Spectrox]

People have let me down.

The difference for me is that people exist but God might not exist. I think the word "relationship" is an inaccurate use of language. You would be able to write a rough, brief transcript of a recent meaningful conversation you had with a person. Could you do that for God?

 

[Spectrox]

You still sat on it as if it would hold you. Which is my point. You did not have any doubt. That is how I have faith in Christ.
If you have bothered to read the Quran you would be able to know this answer, and Hindu makes even less sense.
I wasn't raised Christian, nor in a Christian environment. I was a born skeptic. As a child I didn't trust anyone especially adults. From my earliest memories I examined everything that people said testing them for logic and reason. I was well convinced that my kindergarten teacher was making a mockery of how gullible the other children were; because they played the games with out any question and looked a fool doing it. Man it was difficult looking at an adult as a child and knowing they were lying. There was no security for me, there was only being on guard. I watched the adults lie to children and to other adults, I watched children lie to each other and adults. The only rest was sitting alone away from everyone. I spoke as rarely as possible, usually only when I knew I would have to or I would be pressed. I was called antisocial, and cynical little old man.
Sometimes I wondered if it were easier to just play along, I would try to fake it and fail miserably.
But then there was a neighbor who went to church every Sunday, and His parents where honest, and had an austere but kind way, and it was really his mom mostly. By this the I was a bit of a hooligan and trouble maker, kind of a the world sucks so let her burn, kind of thing. Well, they took me to church, and I went as many Sundays as I could. There the Gospel was preached and it was with out any doubt the truth. That took hold of my life and set me on a long hard road, but it was a true one.
Yea as soon as I could I escaped from my prison that some called my home. I have never been quite sure what to call it. Prison isn't quite right but home wasn't right either. I abandoned church and continued with my rebellious life, but that truth still set on my mind nagging me pulling my hand back from many evils. That truth finally convicted me and condemned me yet strangely enough also set me free.

Thank you for sharing your story.
I have read the Quran and looked at some Hindu teachings. Do believers of these religions not use faith?
I still think the chair analogy is poor. I sat on the chair not using faith. It's just an accumulation of evidence that 99.9% of chairs will support me particularly if they look sturdy but on this occasion it didn't. A bit like the Bible in my view - it gave way under the pressure of scrutiny.

 

[Spectrox]

Now you are being very disingenuous - and I suspect you are perhaps not so honest about your desire to learn about Jesus as
your Lord and Saviour …
those scriptures you dismiss so readily will first, if you bothered to read them and be thoughtful, actually explain HOW you
can know God directly and with truth. No small gift to be tossed away.
Second, they immediately followed my reply post to your OP which I noticed you have not acknowledged.
Too direct for you?
No theological waffle for you to argue with and to play internet games with?

You can have a personal relationship with God directly with all the evidence you need.
God dwelling in you and your spirit connected with God.
You can enjoy the power and presence of God in your life, and enjoy many miracles, healings (for yourself and others) and
much answered prayer > blessings.
God will even give you a spiritual tongue to pray directly to Heaven to build up and to reward your faith and your walk.
You can receive the Holy Spirit of God - the Spirit of truth who will teach you about walking in righteousness and open your eyes
to understanding the Word of God.

I am writing about being a Pentecostal Christian.
For it is in the Pentecostal faith and life that we have in our churches numerous testimonies to being converted by the baptism
of the Holy Spirit and first, how our lives dramatically changed for the better; second, to miracles, healings and blessings.
The God of truth enables a true worshipper to experience his truth and power.
So stop wasting time on the internet and seek the Lord and his salvation while you can.
http://revivalfellowship.uk/

I'm not being disingenuous. I said I wanted to test my beliefs. Do you not want to test yours occasionally through conversation? I think it's healthy.

There are so many assertions and assumptions in what you have written I honestly don't know where to start.

Is the written word (from a very long time ago) really the best way for God to communicate his Ultimate Message to humankind? What's wrong with telepathy?

The God you believe in is presumably an Omni-God who knows everything? In that case that God would know what would convince me of his existence and truth. More importantly, they would want to.

Here is a thought experiment that is one of my favourites – it casts serious doubt about the central Christian claim and is called “Peek-a-boo Messiah”

PROPOSITION X
a. The Christian God exists.
b. All humans have sinned against the Christian God.
c. The Christian God desires to save all humans from their sins (1Timothy 2:4).

Logical syllogism:
1. If the Christian God exists he desires for us to know X.
2. If the Christian God exists he has the power for us to know X.
3. If the Christian God exists then, given 1 & 2, we should know X.
4. Most people on the planet do not know X.
5. Given 3 & 4, the Christian God probably doesn’t exist.

"But what about freewill?!" From a Biblical standpoint, knowledge of the Christian God does not negate free will. Look at the fallen angels. They apparently had knowledge that God existed and yet they had no trouble defecting to the other side.
If we lived in a world where it was obvious that the Christian God exists (and it blatantly isn’t) then billions more souls would be saved than are allegedly being saved now. Either the Christian God is evil, incompetent, doesn’t care or is fictitious.

 

[Waggles]

@Spectrox
I see you are still avoiding my post to you -

You can have a personal relationship with God directly with all the evidence you need.
God dwelling in you and your spirit connected with God.
You can enjoy the power and presence of God in your life, and enjoy many miracles, healings (for yourself and others) and
much answered prayer > blessings.
God will even give you a spiritual tongue to pray directly to Heaven to build up and to reward your faith and your walk.
You can receive the Holy Spirit of God - the Spirit of truth who will teach you about walking in righteousness and open your eyes
to understanding the Word of God.

http://revivalfellowship.uk/

 

[Waggles]

Logical syllogism:
1. If the Christian God exists he desires for us to know X.
2. If the Christian God exists he has the power for us to know X.
3. If the Christian God exists then, given 1 & 2, we should know X.
4. Most people on the planet do not know X.
5. Given 3 & 4, the Christian God probably doesn’t exist.

Complete waffle and psuedo-intellectual nonsense.
Get real and seek God while you are able.
He is real and you can have a personal relationship with him through Jesus Christ who is the door to God the Father.
You can receive the Holy Spirit and receive POWER from God to live as a Christian.
A pretty real experience.
Even Muslims and atheists have been converted to the truth by this experience.

 

[Spectrox]

Nonsense:

That's all just nonsense.

You could spend a lifetime just reading academic works which intelligently and logically defend theism.
You clearly didn't investigate these answers thoroughly because you weren't interested.

If you had any interest in rational explanations for theism, and you wanted theistic answers, you would STILL BE READING ACADEMIC WORKS on the subject... there is a virtually endless supply of scholarly works written over many centuries by some of the greatest minds who ever lived.

I doubt you read ANY serious or scholarly works by top Christian academics or philosophers.

Nonetheless, if you were trying to do THOROUGH research on your doubts, you would STILL be reading academic works supporting theism, because there are centuries of great thought put into these topics.

You could spend several lifetimes just studying the philosophical defenses for theism.
If you aren't STILL studying Christian scholars, then you weren't really looking for theistic answers.
That is the proof.

Rigorous Debate:

Furthermore, in genuine academic debate, atheism does NOT hold up well against theism.
Atheism is actually rife with coherency problems.
Most atheist scholars, when entering into academic debate, will usually turn out to be completely ignorant of the topics they're addressing.
They're usually so given over to presupposition, that they actually have no awareness of the finer points of the topics, or of their own commitment to logical fallacy.

They don't have good arguments.

Atheists are not atheists because they have better arguments... they are atheists because they simply WANT to be.


Epistemology:

Really?
Instead of discussing the finer points of deeper arguments, you're here trying to deconvert believers by challenging their epistemology?
That's all you've got?

Isn't that like atheism 101?

You clearly read somewhere that would stump most Christians.
It's what atheists always do.
Why?
Because most Christians are just normal folks; they're just trying to get through the day and be good people... they aren't trained in philosophy and dealing with rigorous logical defenses to epistemic challenges.

ALMOST NO ONE IS.

Because they aren't trained in this, they are likely to STATE THEIR CASE in a way which leaves some holes, and you're already prepared to move into the gap and attack those holes.

This is typical atheism.
They read up on a few debate tricks, and a few tricky sounding arguments (which almost always contain logical fallacies), and then they go around trying to stump Christians.

Ugh.

By the way, NOBODY who is untrained can give logically defensible answers to epistemic challenges.
That includes atheists.
Atheists quickly melt down, and come apart, if the Christian starts asking all the questions.

That's why I don't tolerate all this nonsense.

.


..
..

Sorry you feel that way. What I've said isn't nonsense. It's an accurate and honest account of my feelings on the matter. If Christian faith cannot withstand a little bit of scrutiny, is it really worth having? How powerful is your God really? A paper tiger protecting a House of Cards? One mild breeze could send the lot tumbling down.

 

[Waggles]

There are so many assertions and assumptions in what you have written I honestly don't know where to start.

You start with Jesus.
Read the gospels which are about Jesus and the why and the how of salvation.
Pray to Jesus for guidance as he is the God of salvation.
Cut out the middle man and go directly to God.
Worked for me.

 

[Spectrox]

Epistemology... quick defensible answers:


Christians, please pay attention.


1. It is logically coherent, and logically tenable, for a theist to simply say, "I believe in God because I have experienced him in a direct and personal way."
This is not a subjective answer, this is an answer of one's personal experience of an external and objective reality.

This is logically tenable, and will hold up to philosophical scrutiny.


..

You might be right but there is no way for an outsider to know whether the experience is real or not. This makes it an unreliable pathway to truth. How do we as humans determine fact from fiction? We test evidence. We use reasoned argument. We deploy a scientific method to approach the truth of any claim. We can interview Alien Abductees right now and they will testify that the experience happened. Do you believe them? If not, why not?

 

[PennEd]

Sorry you feel that way. What I've said isn't nonsense. It's an accurate and honest account of my feelings on the matter. If Christian faith cannot withstand a little bit of scrutiny, is it really worth having? How powerful is your God really? A paper tiger protecting a House of Cards? One mild breeze could send the lot tumbling down.

About the best thing you've said so far is THIS:

"I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge MY BELIEFS as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it? "

I am glad you recognize that agnosticism/atheism is a BELIEF system. The difference is that your beliefs take a whole lot more faith than mine.

From the atom to the universe there is design. Where there is design, there is a designer. You are without excuse. Ask yourself why you suppress that truth.

 

[posthuman]

health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death

Your definition of health is the slowest practical rate of decomposition and decay, and your definition of life is a temporary illusion of existence.

In absolute terms there is no optimal value because the value of each is zero at all points - neither health nor life exist outside of a temporal deception of their existence.

So your definitions of these things are faulty, or there is only nihilism, and as such morality and 'well being' do not exist all either outside of the illusory deception your illusory cognition is temporarily occupied with in order to keep you from insanity long enough for you to procreate and produce another deceived, illusory, non-existent and inconsequential pile of dust that also deceives itself into believing it had existence.

That is what you traded truth for.